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Is Phoenix the largest metro area without a 3digit interstate?

Started by silverback1065, June 22, 2017, 08:40:04 AM

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silverback1065

Is Phoenix the largest metro area without a 3 digit interstate?  Side note, why isn't i-19 just 17? 


hotdogPi

Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:40:04 AM
Side note, why isn't i-19 just 17?

The overlap with I-10 would be longer than the southern non-overlapped segment (currently I-19).
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

silverback1065

are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Rothman

Heh.  I remember this being discussed on m.t.r.  Gotta be a thread on it already.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Several capitals have no 3-digit Interstates: SD, DE, AK, MO (no Interstates at all in its capital), NM (no 3dis in state), MA, ME




Looking down the list, Phoenix is #12. 1-11 all have 3dis, so Phoenix is indeed the largest metro area without one. Orlando (#23) seems to be next.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

silverback1065

Albuquerque might also be up there as largest metro without a 3-digit. 

The Nature Boy

Quote from: 1 on June 22, 2017, 08:49:40 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Several capitals have no 3-digit Interstates: SD, DE, AK, MO (no Interstates at all in its capital), NM (no 3dis in state), MA, ME

Looking down the list, Phoenix is #12. 1-11 all have 3dis, so Phoenix is indeed the largest metro area without one. Orlando (#23) seems to be next.

ME and MA are only on that list because of the mother of all technicalities. I-295 ends 10 miles south of Augusta and I-495 serves the Boston metro area.

Henry

Technically, Annapolis does have a 3di serving it (I-595), though it is unsigned.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

TXtoNJ

Quote from: 1 on June 22, 2017, 08:49:40 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Several capitals have no 3-digit Interstates: SD, DE, AK, MO (no Interstates at all in its capital), NM (no 3dis in state), MA, ME


Don't forget TX, either. And I'm not sure you can say Boston doesn't have a 3di, with 495 around the perimeter of the metro area.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Most of them are up to Interstate design standards but parts of 51 likely don't meet them, for sure sections of 303 and 143 don't.  US 60 runs on Grand Avenue which really has been built up as best it can with an expressway design.  The issue there is that there is a ton of older development like Sun City and infrastructure with the railroads, really the Bell Road/Grand Ave project is a good of expample of what realistically could be done to US 60.  Supposedly in the early concept stages the planned route of 51 was intended to be I-510.  I once asked an ADOT representive why they never applied for 3d designations and they said that they weren't sure.  Really I like the Loop X0X system, it is very easy to follow and understand unlike all the mucked up 3ds get in something like Metro Los Angeles.

english si

Capitals without 3dis serving them:

Montgomery, AL (I'm not going to count I-685 as it's clear it's not meant to exist until I-85 moves)
Juneau, AK (no interstates at all; no 3dis in state)
Phoenix, AZ (used to have I-410, which is now part of I-17; no 3dis in state)
Dover, DE (no interstates at all)
Tallahassee, FL
Springfield, IL
Frankfort, KY
Augusta, ME (I-295 is near, but is a loop for Portland and Brunswick, rather than anything specific for Augusta)
Jefferson City, MO (no interstates at all)
Helena, MT
Albuquerque, NM (no 3dis in state)
Salem, OR
Pierre, SD (no interstates at all)
Montpelier, VT
Olympia, WA
Charleston, WV
Madison, WI

And these have no signed 3dis:
Sacramento, CA (I-805)
Annapolis, MD (I-595)

myosh_tino

Quote from: english si on June 22, 2017, 10:44:45 AM
And these have no signed 3dis:
Sacramento, CA (I-805)

That should be I-305.  I-805 is signed in the San Diego area.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

mwb1848

At the risk of being a wet blanket, Santa Fe is the capital of New Mexico. Not Albuquerque.

It also happens to be the state capital with the highest elevation at 7,200 feet above sea level.

silverback1065

why isn't the new highway in alabama just the new route, why move 85?

pumpkineater2

I thought it had something to do with the way they were funded? The loops got a large chunk of their funding from prop 400, a half cent sales tax for Maricopa county.
Come ride with me to the distant shore...

TXtoNJ

Quote from: english si on June 22, 2017, 10:44:45 AM
Capitals without 3dis serving them:

Montgomery, AL (I'm not going to count I-685 as it's clear it's not meant to exist until I-85 moves)
Juneau, AK (no interstates at all; no 3dis in state)
Phoenix, AZ (used to have I-410, which is now part of I-17; no 3dis in state)
Dover, DE (no interstates at all)
Tallahassee, FL
Springfield, IL
Frankfort, KY
Augusta, ME (I-295 is near, but is a loop for Portland and Brunswick, rather than anything specific for Augusta)
Jefferson City, MO (no interstates at all)
Helena, MT
Albuquerque, NM (no 3dis in state)
Salem, OR
Pierre, SD (no interstates at all)
Montpelier, VT
Olympia, WA
Charleston, WV
Madison, WI

And these have no signed 3dis:
Sacramento, CA (I-805)
Annapolis, MD (I-595)

1. AL
2. AK
3. AZ
4. DE
5. FL
6. IL
7. KY
8. MO
9. MT
10. NM
11. OR
12. SD
13. TX Austin has no 3di
14. VT
15. WA (edit: thanks, english si)
16. WV
17. WI

Pink Jazz

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Most of them are up to Interstate design standards but parts of 51 likely don't meet them, for sure sections of 303 and 143 don't.  US 60 runs on Grand Avenue which really has been built up as best it can with an expressway design.  The issue there is that there is a ton of older development like Sun City and infrastructure with the railroads, really the Bell Road/Grand Ave project is a good of expample of what realistically could be done to US 60.  Supposedly in the early concept stages the planned route of 51 was intended to be I-510.  I once asked an ADOT representive why they never applied for 3d designations and they said that they weren't sure.  Really I like the Loop X0X system, it is very easy to follow and understand unlike all the mucked up 3ds get in something like Metro Los Angeles.

And actually, I-17 south of Dunlap is substandard in terms of lane and shoulder width, which is why it has a reduced speed limit.  I think some of the ramp grades on I-17 are also substandard.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Pink Jazz on June 22, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
are the non interstate freeways in the metro area up to interstate standards?  also why isn't us 60 a freeway when it goes diagonal on the west side? i was going to ask if it was the only capital without a 3digit interstate, but vermont's capital doesn't either.

Most of them are up to Interstate design standards but parts of 51 likely don't meet them, for sure sections of 303 and 143 don't.  US 60 runs on Grand Avenue which really has been built up as best it can with an expressway design.  The issue there is that there is a ton of older development like Sun City and infrastructure with the railroads, really the Bell Road/Grand Ave project is a good of expample of what realistically could be done to US 60.  Supposedly in the early concept stages the planned route of 51 was intended to be I-510.  I once asked an ADOT representive why they never applied for 3d designations and they said that they weren't sure.  Really I like the Loop X0X system, it is very easy to follow and understand unlike all the mucked up 3ds get in something like Metro Los Angeles.

And actually, I-17 south of Dunlap is substandard in terms of lane and shoulder width, which is why it has a reduced speed limit.  I think some of the ramp grades on I-17 are also substandard.

Wasn't parts of AZ 69 grand fathered in as I-17?

The Ghostbuster

If Phoenix had kept either of the formerly-existing Interstate 410 or Interstate 510, we wouldn't be having this conversion. Personally, it doesn't bother me that Phoenix doesn't have a 3-digit Interstate. Flagstaff and Tucson don't either.

michravera

Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:51:17 AM
Albuquerque might also be up there as largest metro without a 3-digit.

Fresno doesn't even have a 2-digit interstate (although I-5 does enter Fresno County, it is not really within the Fresno metro)! Neither does Monterey-Salinas-Watsonville-Santa Cruz (no interstate even enters Monterey or Santa Cruz Counties). Sacramento has a 3-digit interstate that is unsigned. I am not sure about the relative sizes of Eureka, Modesto, Palmdale-Lancaster, Santa Rosa, San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, Santa Barbara, and Ventura, but all of them have metros over 100K and none of them has a 2- or 3-dis (Palmcaster has one in the county, but none of the others does).

sparker

Quote from: michravera on June 22, 2017, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 08:51:17 AM
Albuquerque might also be up there as largest metro without a 3-digit.

Fresno doesn't even have a 2-digit interstate (although I-5 does enter Fresno County, it is not really within the Fresno metro)! Neither does Monterey-Salinas-Watsonville-Santa Cruz (no interstate even enters Monterey or Santa Cruz Counties). Sacramento has a 3-digit interstate that is unsigned. I am not sure about the relative sizes of Eureka, Modesto, Palmdale-Lancaster, Santa Rosa, San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, Santa Barbara, and Ventura, but all of them have metros over 100K and none of them has a 2- or 3-dis (Palmcaster has one in the county, but none of the others does).

The fact that Fresno, Bakersfield, and Modesto aren't served by an Interstate is the driving concept behind the longstanding proposal to elevate CA 99 between Wheeler Ridge and either Stockton or Sacramento to an Interstate (I-7 or I-9).  The wheels were set in motion by the state with its "master plan" to expand CA 99 to a minimum of 6 total lanes over its entire length, and at the federal level by its inclusion as a designated future Interstate (without a specified number) in the 2005 SAFETEA-LU legislation, under the HPC #54 aegis.  However, no one seems to be in any hurry to actually take any additional steps toward Interstate status, partially since as of now the entire route is already full freeway (albeit with a number of substandard segments).  It certainly isn't high priority to do so within Caltrans, joining CA 210, CA 905, and CA 15 as potential and/or designated Interstates that the agency has not taken or deferred action to I-designate.  AFAIK, no one has put forth the suggestion to designate any or all of CA 14 (via Palmdale/Lancaster) as a 3di (IMO, that could change if by chance I-40 were to be deployed along CA 58 in the area).  Otherwise, none of the metro areas mentioned above, particularly those along the US 101 corridor, stand much of a chance of gaining Interstate service by either a 1/2di or 3di.  Caltrans doesn't have the NCDOT or TXDOT fever!

In answer to the OP question, I do believe that Phoenix is -- and has been for at least a decade or two -- the largest metro area sans any 3di's!   

english si

Quote from: myosh_tino on June 22, 2017, 11:49:14 AMThat should be I-305.  I-805 is signed in the San Diego area.
Of course, that's what you get for looking at a map which doesn't have it on and guess-membering where it goes and assuming it doesn't dead end.
Quote from: mwb1848 on June 22, 2017, 11:49:31 AMAt the risk of being a wet blanket, Santa Fe is the capital of New Mexico. Not Albuquerque.
Gah, I spent ages trying to spell Albubqwerty right too! Despite me using an RMN atlas with the stars for capitals. :rolleyes:
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 11:50:57 AMwhy isn't the new highway in alabama just the new route, why move 85?
Because it's going to I-20, though they could have done a 65/85 concurrency and had 685 meet 85 at both ends.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 22, 2017, 01:32:49 PM13. TX Austin has no 3di
I thought I had typed it.  :-(

Not sure why your list omits WA though (I can understand removing ME) - Olympia definitely doesn't have a 3di.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: english si on June 23, 2017, 04:25:50 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on June 22, 2017, 11:49:14 AMThat should be I-305.  I-805 is signed in the San Diego area.
Of course, that's what you get for looking at a map which doesn't have it on and guess-membering where it goes and assuming it doesn't dead end.
Quote from: mwb1848 on June 22, 2017, 11:49:31 AMAt the risk of being a wet blanket, Santa Fe is the capital of New Mexico. Not Albuquerque.
Gah, I spent ages trying to spell Albubqwerty right too! Despite me using an RMN atlas with the stars for capitals. :rolleyes:
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2017, 11:50:57 AMwhy isn't the new highway in alabama just the new route, why move 85?
Because it's going to I-20, though they could have done a 65/85 concurrency and had 685 meet 85 at both ends.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 22, 2017, 01:32:49 PM13. TX Austin has no 3di
I thought I had typed it.  :-(

Not sure why your list omits WA though (I can understand removing ME) - Olympia definitely doesn't have a 3di.

It certainly does not. Fixing it...

kurumi

Quote from: mwb1848 on June 22, 2017, 11:49:31 AM
At the risk of being a wet blanket, Santa Fe is the capital of New Mexico. Not Albuquerque.

It also happens to be the state capital with the highest elevation at 7,200 feet above sea level.

And the oldest continuously inhabited state capital city in the US.

It should have been first in line for a 3di :-)
My first SF/horror short story collection is available: "Young Man, Open Your Winter Eye"

roadman65

Hello Orlando, FL is now a large metro being served by only one primary highway with no children as the connecting freeways are all tolled and under FL law ( the Sunshine Skyway and Alligator Alley are grandfathered in cause they both predate the interstate system) cannot be if they become interstate anyhow.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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