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Largest city in each state not service by a rail line.

Started by dvferyance, February 01, 2017, 02:56:15 PM

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sparker

Quote from: Rothman on February 06, 2017, 08:41:21 AM
Quote from: sparker on February 04, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
St. George, UT (currently about 82K and heading rapidly toward 100K) has no rail line; the UP LA-SLC line bypasses it about 40 miles to the northwest; that's probably the largest Utah city lacking any rail service at all.

Wonder what happened there, since Saint George was an early settlement, for settlements in Utah.  Perhaps the rail line bypassed it because of topography/terrain?

The LA&SL (Los Angeles and Salt Lake) railroad (a "side-project" of the Harrimans, the UP owners), was deployed out in the desert west of the western Wasatch ridge specifically to take advantage of topography.  It was built southwest-to-northeast -- so when the surveyors got past Las Vegas, NV to the Glendale area, they needed to find the path of least resistance re gradients to the Salt Lake Valley.  Ahead of them were two paths: NE up the Virgin River gorge or north via Meadow Valley.  They evaluated the Virgin River path as too costly to construct plus prone to regular flooding.  So the ran the tracks north via the Meadow Valley watershed to Caliente, NV before turning east along what is now NV 319 and UT 56.  Near Modena the line struck off northeast along the edge of the desert to what is now Milford; from there it parallels present UT 257 to Delta, US 6 to Eureka, and UT 36 north via Tooele to the southern extremities of the Great Salt Lake, where it followed the shoreline east toward SLC proper (eastbound on I-80 you can see the rail line cut into the hillside above the freeway). 

Both Cedar City and St. George were settled at about the same time -- but Cedar City, some 50 miles north of St. George, featured extensive iron deposits nearby.  So when the rail line was constructed around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, a branch was constructed from Lund, SW of Milford, into Cedar City specifically to haul iron ore.  St. George, being a farming community, didn't have sufficient shippable resources to warrant a rail line, so one was never built.  Until after WWII, Cedar City was the largest town in southern Utah; but the iron played out after the war.  It wasn't until the 1980's, after I-15 was completed in both directions, that St. George, with both a favorable climate and relatively low cost of living, became a "magnet" for retirees and subsequently the most populous city and region in southern Utah. 


Rothman

Then it makes you wonder how the Mormons chose Saint George for their temple (predating Salt Lake's) rather than Cedar City.  You'd think the larger community would have been chosen for the site.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sparker

Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2017, 11:36:19 PM
Then it makes you wonder how the Mormons chose Saint George for their temple (predating Salt Lake's) rather than Cedar City.  You'd think the larger community would have been chosen for the site.

Cedar City, because of its status as a mining center, had attracted a significant number of non-Mormon outsiders to the point that the Mormon population was a distinct minority there; quite the opposite of St. George in the early years, which was overwhelmingly settled by Mormon farmers.  The Cedar City situation was similar to that of Ogden, which during the late 1800's was the most populous Utah city -- but because of its main purpose as a Western railroad hub, and its population largely consisting of railroad employees representing multiple faiths (or none at all!) -- was bypassed when major temple locations were being considered.  It's likely that St. George was made a temple location because of its relative isolation from outside influences rather than despite such isolation.   And despite the advent of the Rio Grande rail line that entered the SLC area in the 1880's and the Western Pacific doing the same circa the very early 1900's, the relative isolation of SLC compared to Ogden's role as the longstanding rail "crossroads" of the West prompted its emergence as the functional LDS "HQ"; a role it had already assumed prior to the incursion of rail lines into the immediate area.  Compared to the relatively pristine and staid SLC, Ogden, as well as the early Cedar City, was more of a idiomatic Western "boom town".

Rothman

I'd argue that Brigham Young's decision for the location of the Salt Lake Temple (which he made shortly after arriving in 1847 and recovering from an illness (rocky mountain spotted fever, I believe?)) played a bigger role as to where the headquarters of the LDS church ended up.  The idea of planning communities around a temple square was actually developed earlier by Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo, IL era.

Heh.  Ogden's still an armpit of Utah.  There was a little-known, Mormon-produced film called The RM where someone gets a job as a telemarketer and starts flipping through the markets he's been assigned.  Something like, Detroit, East LA...Ogden.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sparker

Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2017, 08:25:03 AM
Heh.  Ogden's still an armpit of Utah.  There was a little-known, Mormon-produced film called The RM where someone gets a job as a telemarketer and starts flipping through the markets he's been assigned.  Something like, Detroit, East LA...Ogden.

An acquaintance from the specialty audio business has his HQ/main plant way out on the west side of Ogden, close to the salt flats.  He's often said that if he didn't need a RR spur to receive bulk shipments of copper (he makes connecting cables), he'd move somewhere else in the state (he's mentioned Logan as where he'd ideally like to be); cars in his parking lot have been broken into more than once. 

mapman1071

#55
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 01, 2017, 05:07:54 PM
We don't have commuter rail in AZ, but if light rail and streetcars count, the largest city without such service would be Chandler (fourth largest city in Arizona).  As for freight trains I am not sure, since practically every Phoenix suburb has freight train tracks either from UP or BNSF.

Scottsdale, Litchfield Park, Cave Creek, Carefree Have no Freight rail Service

Freight Rail operates in:
Buckeye (UP), Goodyear (UP), Avondale (UP), Tolleson (UP),  Surprise (BNSF & ARZC), El Mirage (BNSF & ARZC), Youngtown (BNSF & ARZC), Peoria (BNSF & ARZC), Glendale (BNSF & ARZC), Phoenix (BNSF, ARZC & UP), Tempe (UP 2 Lines), Mesa (UP), Chandler (UP 2 Lines), Gilbert (UP), Queen Creek (UP). (ARZC = Arizona & California RR (Trackage rights on BNSF)

Amtrak Operates on 2 routes:
On BNSF Southern Transcon In Northern AZ (Kingman, Flagstaff, Winslow, Holbrook)
On UP Southern Transcon in Southern AZ (Yuma, Gila Bend, Maricopa, Casa Grande, Tucson, Benson, Wilcox)

Light Rail/Streetcar
Valley Metro Rail: Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa
Tempe Trolley (Under Construction open 2019)
Tucson Sun link Trolley
Tucson: Old Pueblo Trolley (may be out of service)

dzlsabe

Other than Milwaukee (ok Kenosha) and the towns serviced by EB and Hiawatha, the whole REST of Wisconsin.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

sparker

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2017, 11:03:42 PM
Other than Milwaukee (ok Kenosha) and the towns serviced by EB and Hiawatha, the whole REST of Wisconsin.

If you're only thinking of Amtrak passenger service, then yes.  But WI overall is one of the better-served states regarding freight rail:  BNSF, CP, CN, and UP have trackage within the state -- plus a number of short/regional lines, including Wisconsin Southern. 

golden eagle

As far as passenger rail in Mississippi, Tupelo would be the largest. An Amtrak goes through the larger city of Southaven, but doesn't stop there. Since it's so close to Memphis, I won't count Southaven.

golden eagle

Quote from: freebrickproductions on February 01, 2017, 04:08:28 PM
As far as passenger rail goes. 3 of the four largest cities in Alabama (Mobile, Montgomery, and Huntsville) aren't served by any kind of passenger rail. Not sure what the largest city here in Alabama is without an active rail line of any kind though. as just about every town of a decent size tends to have one. Maybe Centreville, AL though?

Did the Sunset Unlimited line discontinue through Mobile?

freebrickproductions

Quote from: golden eagle on February 23, 2017, 01:08:45 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on February 01, 2017, 04:08:28 PM
As far as passenger rail goes. 3 of the four largest cities in Alabama (Mobile, Montgomery, and Huntsville) aren't served by any kind of passenger rail. Not sure what the largest city here in Alabama is without an active rail line of any kind though. as just about every town of a decent size tends to have one. Maybe Centreville, AL though?

Did the Sunset Unlimited line discontinue through Mobile?
Yea, that's why they don't have passenger rail. However, Amtrak is thinking of bringing the Sunset Unlimited back through there.
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mgk920

Quote from: sparker on February 23, 2017, 12:59:34 AM
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2017, 11:03:42 PM
Other than Milwaukee (ok Kenosha) and the towns serviced by EB and Hiawatha, the whole REST of Wisconsin.

If you're only thinking of Amtrak passenger service, then yes.  But WI overall is one of the better-served states regarding freight rail:  BNSF, CP, CN, and UP have trackage within the state -- plus a number of short/regional lines, including Wisconsin Southern.

Don't forget, too, that Kenosha, WI is the terminal station on Metra's Union Pacific (Chicago and Northwestern) North line.  It's their only station that is not in Illinois and is used because there is room there for a coach yard.

Mike

sparker

In Oregon, the largest city without passenger rail service is Bend (about 77K population); Medford (75K) isn't too far behind.  The largest city without any rail service whatsoever is Newport (10K); the branch line extending west from Corvallis ends at Toledo, 5 miles east along US 20.

stwoodbury

For Washington State  I suspect Bellevue would be the largest with no rail since the Woodinville Sub was abandoned a few years ago, which was the end of the Spirit of Washington and of seeing trains on the Wilburton Trestle. This will change when light rail is built across Lake Washington, in 2020.

I believe that Bellevue is also the largest city without passenger service, but again that will change when light rail is operational.


Idaho - can't think of any larger towns without freight rail service; either BNSF in the Panhandle or UP in Southern Idaho. Not sure if trains still pass through Coeur d'Alene- they used to deliver lumber to the area around North Idaho College and the City Park, but I believe that is gone now.

Sandpoint is the only passenger train station in the entire state, with the Empire Builder passing through at about midnight or so,one in each direction. The only exception is if a tourist railroad exists somewhere in the state - would the theme park train at Silverwood count?

Buck87

Quote from: stwoodbury on February 24, 2017, 05:58:40 PM
For Washington State  I suspect Bellevue would be the largest with no rail since the Woodinville Sub was abandoned a few years ago, which was the end of the Spirit of Washington and of seeing trains on the Wilburton Trestle. This will change when light rail is built across Lake Washington, in 2020.

I believe that Bellevue is also the largest city without passenger service, but again that will change when light rail is operational.


Idaho - can't think of any larger towns without freight rail service; either BNSF in the Panhandle or UP in Southern Idaho. Not sure if trains still pass through Coeur d'Alene- they used to deliver lumber to the area around North Idaho College and the City Park, but I believe that is gone now.

Sandpoint is the only passenger train station in the entire state, with the Empire Builder passing through at about midnight or so,one in each direction. The only exception is if a tourist railroad exists somewhere in the state - would the theme park train at Silverwood count?

I must say, even though I know exactly what you're talking about, it still seems very strange to me to see the words "Bellevue" and "no rail" in the same sentence   

Bruce

Light rail isn't arriving in Bellevue until 2023. They just started digging the tunnel under downtown, which will have no stations because of some stupid political decisions a few years ago.  :pan:

Our Bellevue is ten times larger than your Bellevue, and even sports a pretty decent skyline:


Buck87

Quote from: Bruce on February 24, 2017, 07:47:32 PM

Our Bellevue is ten times larger than your Bellevue, and even sports a pretty decent skyline:



17 times larger actually. Pretty surprising a municipality of that size doesn't have at least a freight rail line.

Bruce

Quote from: Buck87 on February 24, 2017, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 24, 2017, 07:47:32 PM

Our Bellevue is ten times larger than your Bellevue, and even sports a pretty decent skyline:



17 times larger actually. Pretty surprising a municipality of that size doesn't have at least a freight rail line.

Bellevue is a suburb first and foremost, with most of its jobs in the tech sector. Traditional industrial uses are dying, with the major industrial center being redeveloped for housing and offices when light rail comes in 2023.

The freight rail line got taken out a few years ago in preparation for conversion into a regional bike trail.

dzlsabe

Quote from: sparker on February 23, 2017, 12:59:34 AM
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2017, 11:03:42 PM
Other than Milwaukee (ok Kenosha) and the towns serviced by EB and Hiawatha, the whole REST of Wisconsin.

If you're only thinking of Amtrak passenger service, then yes.  But WI overall is one of the better-served states regarding freight rail:  BNSF, CP, CN, and UP have trackage within the state -- plus a number of short/regional lines, including Wisconsin Southern.

@sparker? How bout "douser"? We are not talking about freight rail. EB takes a scheduled eight hours to go once a day? between MSP and downtown Chicago. Add an hour? to either airport. A straighter, faster route IS available to make it FIVE (no HSR required) to ORD, opening a great option for west, central, even northern WI.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

sparker

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 25, 2017, 12:54:43 AM
Quote from: sparker on February 23, 2017, 12:59:34 AM
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 22, 2017, 11:03:42 PM
Other than Milwaukee (ok Kenosha) and the towns serviced by EB and Hiawatha, the whole REST of Wisconsin.

If you're only thinking of Amtrak passenger service, then yes.  But WI overall is one of the better-served states regarding freight rail:  BNSF, CP, CN, and UP have trackage within the state -- plus a number of short/regional lines, including Wisconsin Southern.

@sparker? How bout "douser"? We are not talking about freight rail. EB takes a scheduled eight hours to go once a day? between MSP and downtown Chicago. Add an hour? to either airport. A straighter, faster route IS available to make it FIVE (no HSR required) to ORD, opening a great option for west, central, even northern WI.

Uhh...read the OP!  Nothing about passenger rail only; that was added more or less as one option for a reply by subsequent posters.  If you want to talk about passenger rail exclusively, then by all means start another thread to that effect.  Actually, it might not be a bad idea if someone were to initiate an off-topic thread, possibly in the "transit" subsection or remaining within off-topic, about Amtrak in general; its routing and scheduling issues could be discussed within that context.

dzlsabe

We know there is (or could be) freight rail virtually everywhere.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

stwoodbury

#71
Quote from: dzlsabe on February 25, 2017, 03:26:37 AM
We know there is (or could be) freight rail virtually everywhere.
There are a lot fewer freight lines than there used to be. I would imagine that 1910 or so is the peak for US mileage. Since then many branch lines and spurs have been abandoned or converted to recreational trails. Also the frenzy of mergers and bankruptcies in the last five or six decades have led to abandonment of even main lines. Examples are the GN line North of Spokane leading into Hilliard, or the Milwaukee Road. The main lines that remain carry more tonnage now than ever, and quite a few branch lines still do exist to serve remaining rail captive industries like coal, ore, lumber, or other low value bulk commodities that cannot absorb higher truck freight or simply cannot be hauled by road at all but this is using a lot less mileage than what existed when the railroads were nationalized during World War I. At that time,  just about all domestic freight  was hauled by rail with rivers and canals being distant rivals and road primarily functioning as local drayage to the closest rail terminal. Now trucks and airplanes have siphoned off high value commodities leaving the less revenue rich freight to rail, exceptions being new cars and intermodal. It is not surprising at all that many cities are now bypassed by rail especially as the USA shifts from industry to information and service. There is not much need of a siding at Microsoft in Redmond or Intel in Hillsboro, Oregon. Places like that are being outfitted with new light rail stops for their employees.

mgk920

Another one that I totally forgot for Wisconsin, but it also just barely misses the criteria for this thread, is West Bend (2010 USCensus 31,070).  There is a warehouse on the city's extreme south edge that has rail freight service.  Otherwise, the city is without.  The former CNW line northward from there through the city towards Fond du Lac was abandoned in the mid 1990s.

Sad, too, in that it would be the ideal routing for if (or more accurately 'when') common carrier rail passenger service is restored into the Fox Valley/NE Wisconsin.  (Even though it will not likely happen within my remaining lifetime, I can envision it someday being reclaimed, rebuilt and restored to service.)

Mike

oscar

Quote from: dzlsabe on February 25, 2017, 03:26:37 AM
We know there is (or could be) freight rail virtually everywhere.

We know there isn't freight rail in Hawaii. That died with the sugar plantations, and is unlikely to come back. The old rail bridges and ROW on the Big Island became part of HI 19.

In Canada, Newfoundland once had a money-losing freight line (IIRC, with a rail ferry connection to the mainland), but its government subsidies were transferred to highways, and the old rail ROW converted to hiking trails. I don't think Prince Edward Island province has rail of any kind. Just one line in the Arctic territories, starting in Alberta and ending in Hay River NT on the south shore of the Great Slave Lake.
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DaBigE

Quote from: mgk920 on February 25, 2017, 12:25:51 PM
Another one that I totally forgot for Wisconsin, but it also just barely misses the criteria for this thread, is West Bend (2010 USCensus 31,070).  There is a warehouse on the city's extreme south edge that has rail freight service.  Otherwise, the city is without.  The former CNW line northward from there through the city towards Fond du Lac was abandoned in the mid 1990s.

West Bend was already mentioned on page one. The line services a growing industrial park on the far southern border of the city.
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