News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

KDOT Signage: Before and After

Started by Ned Weasel, May 30, 2015, 04:56:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ned Weasel

KDOT appears to have entered a new phase of BGS design.  The "EXIT ONLY" panels are now designed in the style of the 2009 MUTCD, and there are subtle differences in typefaces and spacing.  However, although KDOT has used APL signage before (I-35 and Homestead Lane), this new signage does not resolve the issue of MUTCD non-compliance with respect to option lane signing.  Curious is the new use of black backgrounds on US highway shields (the photo below is not the only example).  I wonder if KDOT will also start using black backgrounds on K-route shields within BGSs.

The example below was popular on the "Redesign This" thread, and now it has been redesigned officially.

Before:



After:

"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.


dfwmapper

The odd/even rule for the last digit has never applied to 3dis.

tdindy88

By looking at a map, I-435 is clearly traveling west at that location. There is no other direction that would make sense there. Loop highways are going to be traveling in all directions at some point.

dfwmapper

There are many even-first-digit 3dis that have some or all segments signed perpendicular to their parent. I-280, I-680, and I-880 in the Bay Area, I-430 in Little Rock, and I-220 in Jackson are signed N/S. I-215 in Las Vegas and I-235 in Des Moines are signed E/W. I-215 in Salt Lake City, I-410 in San Antonio. I-610 in Houston, I-820 in Fort Worth, I-635 in Dallas, I-435 and I-470 in KC, I-680 in Omaha, and I-240 in Memphis all have some portions signed N/S and some E/W. And those are just the ones that come to mind right away.

Scott5114

There are numerous examples of similar arrangements: I-495 VA-DC-MD, I-465 IN, I-275 IN-OH-KY, et al. Most of them date to the original Interstate plan and are entirely kosher under the numbering rules.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Darkchylde

Back on topic... yeah, I saw they'd changed the signage on 435 westbound from the state line to at least Metcalf, but I hadn't had occasion to go farther out.

dfwmapper

Looks weird having a non-cutout US shield on a BGS.

OracleUsr

A lot of states use the compass direction of the segment at the intersection, so using West on I-435, might make sense, thought I-435 Outer would be more practical. 

I guess KDOT abandoned Clearview, then.
Anti-center-tabbing, anti-sequential-numbering, anti-Clearview BGS FAN

situveux1

What exactly was the point in changing the signage anyway? It hasn't been that many years since it was placed.

Ned Weasel

#9
Quote from: OracleUsr on June 01, 2015, 06:19:09 AM
A lot of states use the compass direction of the segment at the intersection, so using West on I-435, might make sense, thought I-435 Outer would be more practical. 

I guess KDOT abandoned Clearview, then.

KDOT never consistently used Clearview in permanent signage.  Some of KDOT's construction signage appears to be in Clearview (although it's hard for my eye to tell for sure when there's no lower-case "L"), and I believe there may have been a few unique cases of permanent signs erected by KDOT that use Clearview, but I am not aware of any BGSs on a KDOT-maintained freeway mainline that use Clearview.  The KTA, however, has used Clearview for quite a while.

Quote from: situveux1 on June 01, 2015, 10:42:57 AM
What exactly was the point in changing the signage anyway? It hasn't been that many years since it was placed.

I honestly wondered that myself.  If the point was to bring the signage into compliance under the 2009 MUTCD, then I would understand, but as I pointed out in the original post, this new signage still doesn't meet the current MUTCD requirements for signing option lanes.  So, good question.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

Scott5114

My guess is that these signs were swapped out as part of a larger project replacing dozens of signs along I-435. I know there was such a project recently, although I don't know if these panels were included.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

US71

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Brandon

Quote from: dfwmapper on June 01, 2015, 12:45:50 AM
Looks weird having a non-cutout US shield on a BGS.

Now that is weird.  I thought KDOT used cutout shields on BGSs.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

apeman33

Quote from: Brandon on June 02, 2015, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: dfwmapper on June 01, 2015, 12:45:50 AM
Looks weird having a non-cutout US shield on a BGS.

Now that is weird.  I thought KDOT used cutout shields on BGSs.

It does ... err, did. This is the only one I've ever seen. I approached 69 from eastbound 435 on Monday and didn't see any black-background shields for U.S. 69 going in that direction.

Atomica

I think that those non-diecut US69 shields for the WB approach on the I-435 to US69 are sort of an anomaly - however I must gain greater confirmation by evaluating other interchanges on other Kansas freeways and KTA in order to be sure that that is the new method KDOT are using.
I am quite familiar with that area though as that is along a common route I use to commute to and from work.
I can also tell you that the I-435 does not end in the KC metro but the exit numbers go from 83 at the I-35 to 1A at Lackman Road then 1B at K-10 WEST to Lawrence - which is now being built around the southeastern side of that community to meet the current Super Two in place between US59 and the KTA/I-70.
"A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything."
--- Malcolm X, 1925-1965

J N Winkler

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 02, 2015, 01:53:11 AMMy guess is that these signs were swapped out as part of a larger project replacing dozens of signs along I-435. I know there was such a project recently, although I don't know if these panels were included.

Yes, and Yes.  The project in question was KDOT project number 435-46 KA-3293-01.  The original intention was to carbon-copy the existing signs with "EXIT ONLY" patches above arrows, but bottom "EXIT ONLY" panels with arrows were substituted, partly to save sign panel area and partly to comply with the 2009 MUTCD, which now mandates them.  However, the exit direction sign for Antioch Road (Exit 80) was re-done as a classic non-Lunenfeld & Alexander exit direction sign (one arrow against green background, the other on an "EXIT ONLY" bottom panel), which has rarely if ever been used in Kansas and is now no longer permitted by the 2009 MUTCD.

Black background on the US 69 shield is a straight-up contractor error, and may be reflective of insufficient resources devoted to construction inspection (thanks, Brownback!).  Otherwise, the signs as shown in Stridentweasel's "after" picture are fabricated as shown in the plans.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Ned Weasel

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2015, 03:25:05 PM
Black background on the US 69 shield is a straight-up contractor error, and may be reflective of insufficient resources devoted to construction inspection (thanks, Brownback!).  Otherwise, the signs as shown in Stridentweasel's "after" picture are fabricated as shown in the plans.

I just thought someone at KDOT might have been inspired by NJDOT signage.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

J N Winkler

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 08, 2015, 10:57:09 PMI just thought someone at KDOT might have been inspired by NJDOT signage.

There are some state DOTs where employees are encouraged to look at interesting things other state DOTs are doing.  I don't think KDOT is one of them.  We were six years behind Nebraska putting construction plans online, and we are now three years (and counting) behind Colorado in putting photologging online.  (There is photologging accessible through a Web address but it appears to be site-locked to KDOT offices and I have been told by KDOT that access to anonymous public users is not allowed.)  An increasing number of state DOTs are putting their plans archives online and I have actually written to the KDOT Secretary to suggest that KDOT get in on the ground floor on this trend.  I never got a reply and I have since learned that online access is now provided to some paving plans, but only through the same GIS site as the photologging, and with the same access restrictions.

KDOT's current state signing engineer is a graduate of the physics program at KSU.  Judging by his degree dates and the fact that he was apparently on a split-school track (first two years at FHSU, last two at KSU), I think there must have been at least one year of overlap when I was also doing my physics degree at KSU.  Yet I do not remember him.  I was also not impressed with what he had to say when the Wichita Eagle asked him why Woodlawn was not listed on the westbound exit signing for Rock Road off Kellogg in Wichita even though this is the exit westbound traffic has to take to access Woodlawn.  He gave the by-the-MUTCD answer, which is that adding Woodlawn would have meant too many destinations on one sign, but omitted to mention that the reason this is so is that one side street is effectively double-listed (as Armour/Towne East Center Drive instead of just Armour) to give free advertising to the Simon property north of Kellogg.  (Towne East Center Drive used to be just Armour.)  There seems to be a fair amount of turnover in this position as well; I can think of at least four names associated with it in the last 15 years.

Contrast this with MnDOT, where the same person was in charge of statewide signing for about 30 years (essentially until right before he died in 2011), and would ask to have paper plans turned in to him on Friday so he could take them home, spread them out in his basement, and hand them back with red-ink comments on Monday.  MnDOT's signing has suffered (especially in terms of plan presentation) since his passing.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

route56

This project is not over yet:


51325 by Richie Kennedy, on Flickr

This is along K-10 at Ceder Creek Road. Although I took this picture last week, I went by there today and there were still BGSs being staged.
Peace to you, and... don't drive like my brother.

R.P.K.

Tom958

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 01, 2015, 04:43:08 PMIf the point was to bring the signage into compliance under the 2009 MUTCD, then I would understand, but as I pointed out in the original post, this new signage still doesn't meet the current MUTCD requirements for signing option lanes.  So, good question.

Quote from: J N WinklerHowever, the exit direction sign for Antioch Road (Exit 80) was re-done as a classic non-Lunenfeld & Alexander exit direction sign (one arrow against green background, the other on an "EXIT ONLY" bottom panel), which has rarely if ever been used in Kansas and is now no longer permitted by the 2009 MUTCD.

I hope it's a revolt.  :clap:



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.