Both seem to be years, if not decades, away. One possibility is that a segment of I-11 gets built over current SR 85 between I-8 and I-10. Any thoughts?
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 02:36:34 PM
Both seem to be years, if not decades, away. One possibility is that a segment of I-11 gets built over current SR 85 between I-8 and I-10. Any thoughts?
The SR 85 will be full freeway before I-11, easily. The current plans for I-11 in the Phoenix area depend on banks willing to finance the development of Douglas Ranch. As metro Phoenix slowly but surely embraces infill development, the economic case for Douglas Ranch, and the section of I-11 that goes thru it, gets thrown in the trash.
In fact, SR 85 can be I-11, as well as the north-south portion of the Sun Valley Pkwy, for much less the cost. Even with the traffic light in Gila Bend, it's already a serviceable bypass of Phoenix, in conjunction with I-8.
Definitely SR 85. Some parts are already close to or up to freeway standards- such as the interchange near the prison. Other parts are actually on the frontage roads for now, similar to the Loop 101 was in Chandler back in the late 90's. I forsee it actually being more/less used as part of I-11 for a period of time unofficially. I really believe that I-11 will make its way down to I-10 in the forseeable future, but the segment south of I-10 will take a lot longer, therefore traffic off I-11 will dump onto I-10 and will then head south on the 85.
One thing I haven't heard or found anything about- once the 85 is a freeway will it always dump traffic through Gila Bend, or is there a bypass plan of the town. With that new alignment done where 85 and Maricopa Road intersect it seems that the long term plan is to send traffic through town, I know a bypass will kill most of what's left there other than maybe what's closer to the 8.
Although I've never been to Arizona, the AZ 85 freeway sounds more realistic than the I-11 bypass.
Quote from: kdk on August 22, 2016, 03:50:37 PM
Definitely SR 85. Some parts are already close to or up to freeway standards- such as the interchange near the prison. Other parts are actually on the frontage roads for now, similar to the Loop 101 was in Chandler back in the late 90's. I forsee it actually being more/less used as part of I-11 for a period of time unofficially. I really believe that I-11 will make its way down to I-10 in the forseeable future, but the segment south of I-10 will take a lot longer, therefore traffic off I-11 will dump onto I-10 and will then head south on the 85.
One thing I haven't heard or found anything about- once the 85 is a freeway will it always dump traffic through Gila Bend, or is there a bypass plan of the town. With that new alignment done where 85 and Maricopa Road intersect it seems that the long term plan is to send traffic through town, I know a bypass will kill most of what's left there other than maybe what's closer to the 8.
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.
85 way more quickly. The route has been substantially built up the last two decades and doesn't need a whole lot to make a substantial freeway.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.
Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.
Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.
Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.
This link has it:
https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.
From the comments of the Gila Bend-based respondents, it seems that they prefer the present "Breezewood-esque" situation re San Diego/Yuma-Phoenix traffic, which is certainly understandable from a local point of view; a slog through the town (which I've done on several occasions) does have the potential to elicit travel-related business (as long as they're going slow through town, they may decide to stop and eat/get refreshments/etc.). But if I-11 is extended at least as far south as I-10 near the AZ 85 junction at Buckeye -- and if plans for the Casa Grande extension of I-11 don't materialize in short order -- then almost certainly AZ 85 will bear the brunt of through traffic wishing to avoid Phoenix and environs (for good reason!). Since the direct route to I-8 east (Biz I-8) diverges from AZ 85 prior to the town center, additional business from south-to-east traffic wouldn't likely materialize -- and the likely traffic situations at the AZ 85/Biz 8 intersection stemming from increased flow to and from southeast Business 8 would likely prompt re-thinking of the direct freeway connection as depicted in the documents.
But all this is speculation, dependent upon the eventual scheduling of I-11 development. But I'd place odds that the Phoenix-Vegas corridor will see construction long before the Casa Grande extension route is even finalized, with AZ 85 as a virtual extension.
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion. I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land. Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10. Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.
I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion. I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land. Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10. Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.
West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion. I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land. Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10. Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.
West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.
Okay, how is that a reasonable commute for anyone to have AN ENTIRE mountain range obstructing them from the rest of the city. It's not like we're talking about a bypass like the I-11 Estrella path or the 202 Bypass of South Mountain. This would literally serve nobody with this whole flight of fancy that it's going to spur growth in an area that has none. That's the problem with people in Phoenix these days, they seem to think that the massive urban sprawl will have no end. Real estate development at the pace that Phoenix was seeing post recession was unhealthy and ultimately played a huge part in what caused it in the first place. Peoria and Goodyear did the same thing Buckeye did annexing up parcels of land only to have them completely undeveloped. At least with Peoria annexing land up to AZ 74 it will be in the actual Valley and with Goodyear it will still have short access to I-10. I might be far less skeptical of the "West of the White Tanks plan" if it was say something along the lines of AZ Loop 404 or something. Develop the Interstate route for what it's meant for....the west of Tucson jabber is equally inane.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
Essentially copying the Texas model, used on both the I-69C route along US 281 and the potential I-2 west extension along US 83. Build the frontage roads first, let the local property owners establish their connections to such (ameliorating local objections), and then complete the freeway as funding allows. On the minus side, it enables TXDOT to install "volleyball" interchanges between freeways (TXDOT is to volleyballs what Caltrans is to parclos!).
Quote from: sparker on August 24, 2016, 01:33:36 AM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
Essentially copying the Texas model, used on both the I-69C route along US 281 and the potential I-2 west extension along US 83. Build the frontage roads first, let the local property owners establish their connections to such (ameliorating local objections), and then complete the freeway as funding allows. On the minus side, it enables TXDOT to install "volleyball" interchanges between freeways (TXDOT is to volleyballs what Caltrans is to parclos!).
Texas uses that model for everything. The northeast portion of Beltway 8 was frontage roads only for at least 30 years. Red Bluff Road in Pasadena has such a wide median because it was supposed to be a freeway. Arizona is so sparse with frontage roads though that it seems strange that they would build it like this. Without any connections, there's no real reason why it couldn't just mostly use the existing roadway and go into that large median for overpasses. Who knows though.
Gila Bend is pretty much only travel-related businesses; that's the town. But, in the end, I think that most of the customers are coming off I-8. It's a pretty good distance to the next gas option in either direction. I almost ran out of gas once trying to make it to slightly cheaper gas in Stanfield, and I don't believe that's even signed.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion. I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land. Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10. Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.
West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.
Okay, how is that a reasonable commute for anyone to have AN ENTIRE mountain range obstructing them from the rest of the city. It's not like we're talking about a bypass like the I-11 Estrella path or the 202 Bypass of South Mountain. This would literally serve nobody with this whole flight of fancy that it's going to spur growth in an area that has none. That's the problem with people in Phoenix these days, they seem to think that the massive urban sprawl will have no end. Real estate development at the pace that Phoenix was seeing post recession was unhealthy and ultimately played a huge part in what caused it in the first place. Peoria and Goodyear did the same thing Buckeye did annexing up parcels of land only to have them completely undeveloped. At least with Peoria annexing land up to AZ 74 it will be in the actual Valley and with Goodyear it will still have short access to I-10. I might be far less skeptical of the "West of the White Tanks plan" if it was say something along the lines of AZ Loop 404 or something. Develop the Interstate route for what it's meant for....the west of Tucson jabber is equally inane.
If people are willing to live all the way out in effing San Tan Valley, I don't see any reason west of the White Tanks would be any worse. At least from there the entire corridor could develop from I-11, along with the corridor along the 303. There's the Amazon DC and all kinds of other stuff out there, so anyone living out there wouldn't exactly have to drive to Downtown Phoenix for anything.
Now whether or not it makes sense to sprawl out that far is a completely logical argument, one I'm with you on. But I do think that if I-11 went along Sun Valley Parkway on that side of the White Tanks, it would really open up that entire area for legitimate development.
Yeah I had a guy who worked for me that lived out in Queen Creek before the 202 was finished it and getting cliche for it to be the lower-middle class bedroom community for the Phoenix Area. It took him about an hour or hour and fifteen minutes to get to work in Chandler in those days. Now San Tan has basically become the newer version of the same thing and there isn't even a foreseeable freeway extension planned that way. It's just hard to see all those empty tracs of land along US 60 (excluding former Socialist Circle City, Wittmann, and Morristown) and seeing how not trying to develop that corridor first doesn't make more sense. You're right though, it probably will develop the White Tank area for good or bad
So if this happens will I-11 be about 30 miles west of Phoenix, similiar to how I-15 is about 40 miles East of Los Angeles?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 24, 2016, 07:59:04 AM
Yeah I had a guy who worked for me that lived out in Queen Creek before the 202 was finished it and getting cliche for it to be the lower-middle class bedroom community for the Phoenix Area. It took him about an hour or hour and fifteen minutes to get to work in Chandler in those days. Now San Tan has basically become the newer version of the same thing and there isn't even a foreseeable freeway extension planned that way. It's just hard to see all those empty tracs of land along US 60 (excluding former Socialist Circle City, Wittmann, and Morristown) and seeing how not trying to develop that corridor first doesn't make more sense. You're right though, it probably will develop the White Tank area for good or bad
Agree. When the closer in areas get too expensive then the new developments way out go up. Sun Valley Parkway was actually built in the early 90s for the wave of development that was planned out there then, and still hasn't really come but will eventually. It is just like San Tan Valley in the east or even Anthem up north, seems far but it will develop one of these cycles.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 23, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.
Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.
This link has it:
https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.
Thanks for finding that. It looks like that new road alignment that was done north of town was actually designed in order to accommodate the freeway to freeway connection with the 8 now that I see this. I was wondering why they designed what looked to be to direct traffic more towards Maricopa Road when 80% of the traffic was heading up the 85. Now I see why with 85 becoming the freeway it would now intersect essentially Maricopa Road, with the old 85 connection essentially an access road for the airport.
Quote from: kdk on August 24, 2016, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 23, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.
Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.
This link has it:
https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.
Thanks for finding that. It looks like that new road alignment that was done north of town was actually designed in order to accommodate the freeway to freeway connection with the 8 now that I see this. I was wondering why they designed what looked to be to direct traffic more towards Maricopa Road when 80% of the traffic was heading up the 85. Now I see why with 85 becoming the freeway it would now intersect essentially Maricopa Road, with the old 85 connection essentially an access road for the airport.
I've noticed around the Lewis prison, it appears the old 85 past the freeway grade interchange is now a local frontage road.
There are a few older segments in this corridor that are just frontage roads now.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 25, 2016, 02:52:58 PM
There are a few older segments in this corridor that are just frontage roads now.
Are you talking about the segments near Buckeye?
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
Give that over time funding availability is like a virtual roller coaster, here's what I think has a good chance of happening: I-11 gets built north of I-10, intersecting at or near the Sun Valley Parkway, which is just under 2 miles west of the I-10/AZ 85 interchange. In order to avoid weaving on I-10, direct ramps are built between the two interchanges adjacent to the main lanes of I-10 (more or less an elongated C/D system). And, unless a massive dose of $$ occurs at once, AZ 85 (including an extension to and interchange with I-8) will be re-designated as I-11 -- as an interim route. If & when funding is available for a full bypass to Casa Grande or (why, lord, why!) farther, that extension will branch off the extended I-11/former AZ 85 somewhere TBD south of Buckeye; the remainder to Gila Bend will become a x11 3di (the most direct Phoenix-San Diego route). Barring a 3rd full round of chargeable (>90%) Interstates (after '56 and '68) down the road, an incremental plan like this would be the most likely to result in some sort of completed route. Sorry if I sidestepped close to the fictional line here, but it's relevant to the OP.
Quote from: sparker on August 26, 2016, 12:39:05 AM
which is just under 2 miles west of the I-10/AZ 85 interchange. In order to avoid weaving on I-10, direct ramps are built between the two interchanges adjacent to the main lanes of I-10 (more or less an elongated C/D system)
If Arizona was going to do stuff like this, then they would have done it with the two or three places in Phoenix that actually need it. I understand that ROW acquisition is a lot cheaper around this area than in urbanized Phoenix, but ADOT has more or less set the precedent that it's fine with dumping traffic and forcing people to weave.
A couple of things go against Sun Valley Parkway as I-11 in my mind: one, that the parkway is in most ways not up to interstate standards (shoulder widths, lane widths, crossovers, etc.), so construction would not necessarily be made easier or cheaper beyond a lot of the grading and land acquisition already done (although I believe the Hassayampa Freeway corridor is mostly on federal and state trust land), and there being less of an impact on the environment (though that's never really stopped Maricopa County before); two, the municipal squabbling of the West Valley exurb tri-cities.
Go to Google Maps, and click on Buckeye. Notice where almost the entire routing of Sun Valley Parkway lies. Thanks to the unchecked municipal land grabs that occurred during the housing boom in Arizona, Buckeye looks like a modern congressional district, ducking in and out of the undeveloped crevices of Maricopa County, annexing one saguaro but not the one next to it. Giving Buckeye the giftwrapped I-11 is just going to piss off the rest of the West Valley, because they all have enormous swaths of undeveloped land and Buckeye is the only one that will get the benefits of this. Meanwhile, the traffic that currently uses 303 or 101 will be diverted. And even fewer people will stop at that ridiculous Westgate Entertainment District than do so now.
I think, in the end, it'll just be plopped onto 303. You have to remember also the context (as it were) of this interstate: it's not necessarily a bypass of Phoenix but, rather, an interstate-grade route between Phoenix and Las Vegas. So a lot of the traffic will want to reach Phoenix, and much of that traffic will not want to drop south well west of Phoenix only to have to slog in on I-10. I mean, personally, if I had the choice of going through the traffic lights on 93 versus going south at around Wickenburg and then east on I-10, then I would choose the former. The mileage is shorter and, at most times of the day, it's going to be quicker.
Things are going to be made even easier with the upgrades on Grand at Bell Road and even as population increases near AZ 74. Usually my preferred route depending on where I was in the Valley was I-17 to AZ 74 west from the east Valley or even taking Bell Road directly to Grand/US 60 up to Wickenburg or just Grand if I was in the West Valley. Neither route was exactly very slow but both were very direct for Wickenburg. Basically you hit on the crux of the problem with Buckeye annexing all that land to scoop up I-11 from everyone potentially. I'm fairly certain they might try to dump all that land if their plans for I-11 doesn't go through, they haven't even established a full foothold of the MC 85 corridor.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2016, 07:43:58 AM
I'm fairly certain they might try to dump all that land if their plans for I-11 doesn't go through
Why would they "dump" the land? It doesn't really cost them anything. And they mostly annexed those particular parcels to get CAP water rights.
I think Sun Valley Parkway is maintained by the county. They built it, at least. I also don't know that there's even a precedent in Arizona for deannexation, but the legal requirements set down by the state seem to be more trouble than it would be worth.
Quote from: coatimundi on August 26, 2016, 01:22:19 AM
A couple of things go against Sun Valley Parkway as I-11 in my mind: one, that the parkway is in most ways not up to interstate standards (shoulder widths, lane widths, crossovers, etc.), so construction would not necessarily be made easier or cheaper beyond a lot of the grading and land acquisition already done.
Actually, I wasn't thinking of using the existing Sun Valley Parkway as an I-11 alignment; more or less figured that the Hassayampa Valley alignment would parallel the N-S section of that existing road. The Parkway would likely be reserved as a local arterial (a "spine", if you will) for any future development in the area. I have no doubt that any I-11 alignment, if retained in this area and not relocated so as to intersect Loop 303 as coatimundi predicts, would also "bob and weave" its trajectory so as to benefit the various jurisdictions through which it would travel; that would be expected in any case.
Personally, I agree with coatimundi about using Loop 303 as a partial routing; it certainly satisfies the original Phoenix-Vegas concept more closely than does the Hassayampa variant. But I'm guessing that the folks wishing to further develop the areas around Maricopa and Casa Grande likely wield a lot of political power in AZ, and at least that portion of a "west/south" Phoenix bypass will remain a "paper" concept for the foreseeable future -- hence the existence of the Hassayampa I-11 segment as a facility intended to feed into that concept. I still think I-11 north of I-10, regardless of final routing, will see completion -- or at least significant construction -- before anything south of there is started.
I think it comes down to what the ultimate goal for I-11 is (and I realize it changes depending on who you talk to and when). Is it a Phoenix/Vegas connection? Or is it a Canada/Mexico trade route? If it's the latter, then I think routing I-11 will happen west of the White Tanks and run down AZ 85 (from there, who knows). If it's the former, then it should run further into the Phoenix area and go down the 303 route.
The only real issue I see is that they JUST finished the 303/Grand Ave interchange, and making I-11 go down Grand to the 303 would require a complete demolition and rebuilding of that interchange to accommodate a freeway-to-freeway connection.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 26, 2016, 11:58:49 AM
The only real issue I see is that they JUST finished the 303/Grand Ave interchange, and making I-11 go down Grand to the 303 would require a complete demolition and rebuilding of that interchange to accommodate a freeway-to-freeway connection.
It looks as if there's enough open area east of the Loop 303 bridge over Grand to install a directional (or trumpet, if they want to cheap out!) interchange. It's likely that any I-11 (or other) freeway facility based on the Grand trajectory would be a parallel facility rather than sit atop the original US 60 alignment -- normal urban/suburban practice for AZDOT; subsuming alignments are usually situated in more rural regions.
I-11 will go west of the Hassayampas, as much as I'll still use the 303 to the 60 if I'm driving from Phoenix to Nevada.
The major master developers who own land in the area have agreed to donate land to the freeway corridor so it will happen-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2014/03/proposed-interstate-11-has-support-of-land-owners.html
It will make their land more valuable long term anyway. Even before the I-11 plans were being discussed a future freeway was always in the long term plan, initially would likely have been the Loop 404. The 303 will fill in with local traffic as that area fills in more, and will be more like the 101 is today. But I still see the 85 as a temporary leg of the 11 for a while.
I expect it to be a long time before Interstate 11 is signposted anywhere (excluding the future I-11 signs, of course).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:55:21 PM
I expect it to be a long time before Interstate 11 is signposted anywhere (excluding the future I-11 signs, of course).
It's likely that the Boulder City bypass will receive I-11 signage when completed; whether I-515 into central Vegas is redesignated & re-signed is another issue altogether. NV interests seem to want to plant the first signage somewhere within their parvenu. In AZ, unless construction activity in the Kingman area occurs sooner than later, I would concur that nothing more than "future I-11" corridor signage will be posted in the near-term.
I was Googling something unrelated and stumbled upon this. I had seen something like it years ago in the Tucson daily, but wasn't able to find it later.
https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Newsroom/Work%20Newsroom/1308%20August/130813%20Pima%20County%20supports%20study%20of%20interstate%20highway%20link.pdf
I Googled the title of the PDF and found the original article: http://webcms.pima.gov/cms/One.aspx?pageId=40775
One thing that surprised me was to see Chuck Huckleberry (who has been around for many years, and who I call Chuckleberry) talking about this. Pima County's Board of Supervisors has never been very friendly toward these sorts of projects, so I wonder if it's just a seeming inevitability, or that they realize that they need to just get something onto paper and that nothing will likely ever come of it.
Quote from: coatimundi on September 01, 2016, 02:55:29 PM
I was Googling something unrelated and stumbled upon this. I had seen something like it years ago in the Tucson daily, but wasn't able to find it later.
https://webcms.pima.gov/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/Government/Newsroom/Work%20Newsroom/1308%20August/130813%20Pima%20County%20supports%20study%20of%20interstate%20highway%20link.pdf
I Googled the title of the PDF and found the original article: http://webcms.pima.gov/cms/One.aspx?pageId=40775
One thing that surprised me was to see Chuck Huckleberry (who has been around for many years, and who I call Chuckleberry) talking about this. Pima County's Board of Supervisors has never been very friendly toward these sorts of projects, so I wonder if it's just a seeming inevitability, or that they realize that they need to just get something onto paper and that nothing will likely ever come of it.
I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on September 01, 2016, 10:21:01 PM
I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.
I think an even number would be more appropriate, seeing that it's more like a loop. I would guess someone with a basic but limited knowledge of the interstate numbering system put that in there.
I saw some other articles when I started looking more that talked about how residents in the Avra Valley - where I-11 would plow through at a somewhat devastating angle - were concerned that this was setting the stage for the I-11 that hasn't been really properly planned or approved yet, since the maps showed the two connecting. I think they're just waiting to pounce, and I hope that they choose to remain more quiet on this one in order to pick their battles.
Quote from: coatimundi on September 01, 2016, 10:31:01 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on September 01, 2016, 10:21:01 PM
I can't believe Pima County actually was planning an interstate label for the Sonoran Corridor. The maps label it as I-510, but more recent mentions of the corridor label it as future SR 410.
I think an even number would be more appropriate, seeing that it's more like a loop. I would guess someone with a basic but limited knowledge of the interstate numbering system put that in there.
I saw some other articles when I started looking more that talked about how residents in the Avra Valley - where I-11 would plow through at a somewhat devastating angle - were concerned that this was setting the stage for the I-11 that hasn't been really properly planned or approved yet, since the maps showed the two connecting. I think they're just waiting to pounce, and I hope that they choose to remain more quiet on this one in order to pick their battles.
So why the 3d Interstate now?...of all things in Tucson? There was plenty of opportunity for numbers like that on the Loop 101, 202, and 303....so what's wrong with 909, 808, 707, ect?
Incidentally....what the hell is up with I-11 and I-19 multiplexing on that map? :eyebrow:
I still remain convinced that the need for a completely new Interstate alignment so close to I-10 from Casa Grande all the way south is completely ridiculous. The bypass around the back side of Tucson, perhaps. But at the top, it looks like I-11 parallels I-10 with only a couple miles difference.
My idea would be I-11 down AZ 85 to Gila Bend, and a duplex along I-8 and I-10 to the Tucson area, then the bypass around the back side of Tucson down to I-19 and either duplex or replace I-19 to the Mexican border.
Kind of on-topic but off-topic, does anyone know what Arizona's hatred for duplexes is? Do any even exist? The only one I can think of is AZ 77 and US 60 from Globe to Show Low. For the sake of this argument, I am not counting short duplexes that only go for a couple miles through towns. I can't really think of any others, as it seems like they would rather have a highway "end" when it meets another rather than duplexing to a destination. It seems like other states have plenty of overlap of highways (and definitely Interstates) where they cross paths or run in a similar area.
I don't think it's a hatred rather than there just really hasn't been much of a need. Don't forget US 80/89 and US 60/70 used to have GIANT multiplexes not to mention all FOUR were multiplexed at the height of the US Route era even though US 80 probably could have been realigned via AZ 86 and AZ 84...
US 70 and US 191 still have a decently sized multiplex east of Safford. I'd say that Arizona's Highway log is more infamous for being "stingy" in terms of maintained routes compared to other states like say....cough...New Mexico...or even Nevada or California. What I like to understand is why was almost every early route number in Arizona 61 or higher? It wasn't like US 60 as even around at the time some of the AZ Routes started getting plotted out.
Regarding 3dis, Kino Parkway in Tucson was supposed to be I-710. I don't know why 360 and then 60 in the East Valley wasn't 310 though. Seems like a no-brainer.
Regarding multiplexes, there are a few. 87/260 and 87/287 are two more. A lot of them were removed when all the US routes were yanked. There was just no reason to keep them. Why keep US 70 all the way to California if California has deleted it?
I don't know what the logic is on the parallel routing of I-11. 10 being at 6 lanes in the rural areas seems to be perfectly adequate now, and it certainly seems like it would be easier to widen it again later rather than build a whole new corridor. I wonder if the logic is that it's going to be a new "international corridor," as if truck traffic is avoiding Nogales now because there's no direct interstate. It reminds me a bit of the 90's, when the states that could have benefited got so excited about their "NAFTA Highways."
I mean, despite being "undeveloped" and perceived as desolate, Arizona is not Texas or Oklahoma, and people fight roads. I don't understand why this is even worth putting on the table unless it's to make an alternative seem better.
Yeah but that's the thing if it wasn't for California kicking them out then Arizona might not have to yanked that 60/70 multiplex. I'm actually surprised US 80 hung on as long as it did to 1989 in Arizona. US 89 made sense to cut back...to Wickenburg at least...but not Flagstaff. Aside from that there isn't much need for multiplexes in the state route system....speaking which I always thought 260 should have been left with an X79 number. 260 would have made a lot more sense if it went to Mesa and hook back up with US 60...
To add to Phoenix even AZ 51 was conceived as I-510 and rumor has it that's where the first two digits came from.
I am in agreement with others here that the plans for a parallel highway, and that pointless multiplex are egregious. I also find it extremely irritating how much planners are getting carried away with the southern part of I-11. :banghead: I'd totally support a connection between 10 and 19, as well as a western bypass of Tucson, but only if it connects with I-10 somewhere near Marana, instead of redundantly running parallel to it. Also, I don't like the thought of it west of the White Tanks one bit. :no:
I think a multiplex for a basic overlap for a short distance (compared to the broader route) is fine though, but some of the cutoffs just seem weird (I think US 180 ending in Valle instead of simply overlapping AZ 64 for the last 20 miles to the Grand Canyon is odd, because from Flagstaff that's the primary route to the Grand Canyon, but the route itself ends before you get to the Grand Canyon). And the implied refusal of ADOT to consider letting I-11 overlap anything and it must be on its own route (or replace a route, as it will seemingly result in US 93 being deleted once I-11 becomes a thing).
There's no reason an overlap of I-8 and I-10 from Gila Bend to Tucson would hurt anything, and overwriting AZ 85 from I-10 to I-8 seems like a no-brainer. But all these studies seem to imply that ADOT wants all-new routing for everything south of Wickenburg all the way to the Mexican border (or at the most, the overlap of I-19, although I wouldn't be surprised if they just deleted I-19 if they ran I-11 down there, with the last stretch if I-19 going into Tucson becoming an I-x10 branch), which seems absurdly redundant when the facilities are already there and can be done with some upgrading, instead of the much more complex process of going along an entire new stretch of land. We've seen the crazy issues the 202 has had with getting approval and going through the lawsuit-after-lawsuit process, and that's on a route that was put on paper 31 years ago.
Actually US 180 does end at the Grand Canyon National Park Entrance:
http://www.usends.com/80-89/180/180.html
This one is still there, seen it in person many, many times:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9867418,-112.1232762,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0UMdBVvm6msUmVpL1UbIOA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Then down in Valle you got this one showing US 180 and AZ 64 co-signed to the Grand Canyon:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6519594,-112.1381862,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9vG-JhFcHD1m-tObqZUovw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Honestly all of AZ 64 should either be part of US 64 or US 160 by now....so as it stands the current multiplex seems justified to get a US Highway to the National Park.
Hmm, I could have sworn I've seen "END 180" at the intersection in Valle, but as of those pictures, you're right. My mistake.
That 180 switch happened fairly recently, at least on signage. I would guess that it got confusing for visitors, since you had to know which 64 you wanted, and most visitors don't know where Cameron is. Personally, I think the eastern 64 should be renumbered. There's no reason for it to be numbered 64, and it's not like Arizona is hurting for highway route numbers.
Quote from: Sonic99 on September 02, 2016, 11:04:40 PM
We've seen the crazy issues the 202 has had with getting approval and going through the lawsuit-after-lawsuit process, and that's on a route that was put on paper 31 years ago.
And that was kind of my point. You could make the excuse "Well, those are rich Ahwatukee people so of course they went all NIMBY," but I think I've brought up the culture of Picture Rocks and the Avra Valley on here before. If I haven't, then let it be known that these people out there will
never lay down and let a freeway come through. These aren't office workers in tract houses; these are recluses and retirees in trailer homes. Picture Rocks likes the 45-minute commute into town because it keeps the Sunbelt afflictions far away: chain restaurants, cookie-cutter subdivisions and watered lawns. Widening Sandario or Picture Rocks Roads would bring hellfire, so I can't imagine what the public meetings on this interstate proposal would be like. Maybe not ADOT, but Pima County certainly has an idea of how these people are and knows better than to propose a freeway on top of them.
Then there's the proximity to the national park, Tucson Mountain Park, Ironwood Forest National Monument, and the Tohono O'Odham Nation. The latter still bitches about allowing them to put in the little telescopes on Kitt Peak, and there was recently a very bitter legal battle with the state over their casino in Glendale, so I don't see them too keen on allowing an interstate to run up against a far-flung part of their land.
You've also got Tucson Water's Avra Valley aquifer recharge facility (CAVSARP) out there, so you've got yet another environmental concern.
Funny story: when I had my truck, I tried to go watch the sunset around the area where I-11 is going to plow through Picture Rocks. I ended up going too fast, missing a bend, and into a wash, where I got stuck in the sand. And the point here is to emphasize how rural this is: I had to open a gate and was on a one-lane "road" when I got stuck, and I was only about two miles west of Sandario Road.
If you're curious on the outcome: I was saved by a guy in a 4x4 Blazer who just happened to have a tow rope, and was very dodgy when I questioned what he was doing out there.
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 02, 2016, 09:19:29 PM
I am in agreement with others here that the plans for a parallel highway, and that pointless multiplex are egregious. I also find it extremely irritating how much planners are getting carried away with the southern part of I-11. :banghead: I'd totally support a connection between 10 and 19, as well as a western bypass of Tucson, but only if it connects with I-10 somewhere near Marana, instead of redundantly running parallel to it. Also, I don't like the thought of it west of the White Tanks one bit. :no:
Frankly, I don't think any I-11 extension corridor will ever go south of Casa Grande -- if even that far! It won't be a matter of opposition by Native Americans, recluse retirees, or environmental activists -- it'll be a matter of both money and waning interest in stretching "commerce corridors" down to every available border crossing. Right now it's like a kid with a new toy (or the box the new toy came in!) -- planners and/or developers with stars in their eyes are taking a literalist view of the "Canamex" corridor -- you know, the one that goes from Nogales to Sweetwater -- and planning a whole new facility opening up new territories to exploit (whereas the original HPC 26 definition assumed overlay on I-19 and I-10 before striking out on its own toward Vegas). IMHO, when reality sets in down the line, I-11 will shrink back to Casa Grande (or even Gila Bend -- or Avondale!), redefined as the Phoenix-Vegas corridor we all know & love, with a possible Phoenix-avoiding "relief route" tacked on for good measure. In any case, I-19 is safe for at least my lifetime, and the regional tribal governments will resume griping about everything else in & around them.
Interstate/other freeway corridors are simply a methodology to accomplish particular transportation needs, framed by political realities. When a methodology somehow "morphs" into ideology, perspective is the first thing to be tossed out the window. A striking example is the I-69 "triad" in South Texas; a physically different but equally overwrought concept can be seen in the AZ I-11 arena. The very idea of a fresh new corridor is in the process of being sold to whomever will listen -- but when push comes to shove, we'll all just have to see if enthusiasm translates to ongoing political will when it comes time to actually finance and build the thing!
Quote from: Sonic99 on September 03, 2016, 01:46:35 AM
Hmm, I could have sworn I've seen "END 180" at the intersection in Valle, but as of those pictures, you're right. My mistake.
Quote from: coatimundi on September 03, 2016, 02:00:02 AM
That 180 switch happened fairly recently, at least on signage. I would guess that it got confusing for visitors, since you had to know which 64 you wanted, and most visitors don't know where Cameron is. Personally, I think the eastern 64 should be renumbered. There's no reason for it to be numbered 64, and it's not like Arizona is hurting for highway route numbers.
Funny story: when I had my truck, I tried to go watch the sunset around the area where I-11 is going to plow through Picture Rocks. I ended up going too fast, missing a bend, and into a wash, where I got stuck in the sand. And the point here is to emphasize how rural this is: I had to open a gate and was on a one-lane "road" when I got stuck, and I was only about two miles west of Sandario Road.
If you're curious on the outcome: I was saved by a guy in a 4x4 Blazer who just happened to have a tow rope, and was very dodgy when I questioned what he was doing out there.
Supposedly it was back in 2003. I do recall a time when it was at Valle near the turn of the century and I want to say there was an END sign like you said. The weird thing is that all three routes; 64 south, US 180 east, and 64 east will take you back to Flagstaff one way or the other. In fact really all three ways aren't that substantially longer than each other, probably the easiest is to take AZ 64 south to I-40 east:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mather+Point,+Grand+Canyon+Village,+AZ+86023/Flagstaff,+AZ/@35.5164239,-112.2135109,9z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x87331092e38bb8e1:0x2cc228f9ec5151d0!2m2!1d-112.1098271!2d36.061923!1m5!1m1!1s0x872d8ef7da2e2631:0x8e1f3ca1cedbb300!2m2!1d-111.651302!2d35.1982836?hl=en
And if you're heading to the Iron Forest National Monument from Marana on Silverbell Road you get some interesting warning signs about watching out for cartel members. Apparently they run drugs up from Sonora and pop out somewhere near the Silverbell Mine. Border Patrol usually has a vehicle or two out there searching and generally will give you the stink eye if you're heading out to Ironwood for whatever reason. And they want to build an Interstate here?....there isn't anything out there but the Silverbell and Sasco ghost towns. There isn't even a WATER supply out there to capture from. If you look at most of the development in the Sonoran desert it's mostly near a river or major stream where it can be impounded.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2016, 09:49:24 AM
And if you're heading to the Iron Forest National Monument from Marana on Silverbell Road you get some interesting warning signs about watching out for cartel members. Apparently they run drugs up from Sonora and pop out somewhere near the Silverbell Mine. Border Patrol usually has a vehicle or two out there searching and generally will give you the stink eye if you're heading out to Ironwood for whatever reason. And they want to build an Interstate here?....there isn't anything out there but the Silverbell and Sasco ghost towns. There isn't even a WATER supply out there to capture from. If you look at most of the development in the Sonoran desert it's mostly near a river or major stream where it can be impounded.
Those signs are all over the place in Southeastern Arizona though. Years ago, they had a story of some smugglers coming up to people camping south of Casa Grande, but it was never verified and the paper seemed to look at it like they had made it up.
There was a smuggling route along IR 15 until BP started putting more pressure on that corridor. For years, they had a mobile tower along that road. That pushed them in both directions, but the east got more attention because it was closer to population centers. They had the shootout with Pinal County sheriffs several years ago along that corridor, but closer to I-8.
The Santa Cruz River flows there. It was seasonally dry until the mid-2000's when they upped the effluent discharge at the treatment plants upriver, and now Sasco Road west of Red Rock is not typically passable due to its low-water crossing (I mean, it might be passable for some, but I never wanted to try it seeing that it's mostly treated sewage). Aside from that, there is water there though around Silverbell Peak. There's just not very much of it.
I personally don't see why I-11 should be put on a different alignment than AZ 85 between Buckeye and Gila Bend. One freeway is enough out there. And also, I, like others here, don't see why it needs to be extended to the Mexican border. Seems like the planners are hanging out with FritzOwl a bit too much...
Quote from: compdude787 on September 09, 2016, 01:42:28 AM
I personally don't see why I-11 should be put on a different alignment than AZ 85 between Buckeye and Gila Bend. One freeway is enough out there. And also, I, like others here, don't see why it needs to be extended to the Mexican border. Seems like the planners are hanging out with FritzOwl a bit too much...
I'm sure he has I-11 as I-7 or I-9....since it's all part of the plan.
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M0c65e7a02da4666a75319dad7bf37e9fo0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=203&h=154)
Quote from: Sonic99 on September 02, 2016, 01:45:43 AM
I still remain convinced that the need for a completely new Interstate alignment so close to I-10 from Casa Grande all the way south is completely ridiculous. The bypass around the back side of Tucson, perhaps. But at the top, it looks like I-11 parallels I-10 with only a couple miles difference.
My idea would be I-11 down AZ 85 to Gila Bend, and a duplex along I-8 and I-10 to the Tucson area, then the bypass around the back side of Tucson down to I-19 and either duplex or replace I-19 to the Mexican border.
Kind of on-topic but off-topic, does anyone know what Arizona's hatred for duplexes is? Do any even exist? The only one I can think of is AZ 77 and US 60 from Globe to Show Low. For the sake of this argument, I am not counting short duplexes that only go for a couple miles through towns. I can't really think of any others, as it seems like they would rather have a highway "end" when it meets another rather than duplexing to a destination. It seems like other states have plenty of overlap of highways (and definitely Interstates) where they cross paths or run in a similar area.
Good point. interstate 19 should have been "duplexed" along interstate 10 to phoenix, then used for the black canyon freeway route up to flagstaff. would have left the "17" number for the las vegas / phoenix route.
Quote from: Sonic99 on September 02, 2016, 01:45:43 AM
Kind of on-topic but off-topic, does anyone know what Arizona's hatred for duplexes is? Do any even exist? The only one I can think of is AZ 77 and US 60 from Globe to Show Low. For the sake of this argument, I am not counting short duplexes that only go for a couple miles through towns. I can't really think of any others, as it seems like they would rather have a highway "end" when it meets another rather than duplexing to a destination. It seems like other states have plenty of overlap of highways (and definitely Interstates) where they cross paths or run in a similar area.
I-40 and U.S. 93 join for 23 miles.
Quote from: AZDude on September 10, 2016, 09:14:29 PMI-40 and U.S. 93 join for 23 miles.
I-10 and US 95 do as well from Blythe, CA to Quartzsite, AZ.