State shapes on highway signs

Started by golden eagle, August 09, 2010, 11:15:38 PM

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TheStranger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 03:29:43 AM

Kansas was never a cutout.

Yeah, I just checked James Lin's site earlier and saw that. 

That does bring up a good question: excluding California, how many states HAVE used cutouts of their shield shape?
Chris Sampang


KEK Inc.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
Last time I went to the Cheesecake Factory in Washington Square (Tigard), I think I saw a classic SR-217 shield.  Perhaps the next time I go to Togo's in the Portland Area, I'll take a photo.

The New Oregon shield looks like they just flipped the California shield, made it white and put it on a black bg sign. 

217 is one of the numbers that floats around.

an Oregon 66 looks much like a Hawaii 99.
I don't think the angle is that sharp.  :P  Hawaii's is practically a triangle with rounded corners.
Take the road less traveled.

US71

Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 03:49:34 AM

That does bring up a good question: excluding California, how many states HAVE used cutouts of their shield shape?

Arkansas & Missouri have
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Scott5114

Do you consider a yellow diamond a "cutout"? OK's first shield was pretty much a yellow version of Michigan's "cutout" with "OK" replacing the M.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

TheStranger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 08:24:10 AM
Do you consider a yellow diamond a "cutout"? OK's first shield was pretty much a yellow version of Michigan's "cutout" with "OK" replacing the M.

Absolutely, considering that while it's the same shape as the square, it doesn't involve painting the design on a square but rather the physical route shield representing a design.
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

nearly all of them.

Alabama - white square since when they changed away from a diamond
Alaska - been the white square since the beginning
Arizona - yes
Arkansas - yes
California - yes
Colorado - used to be a boring white square, and before that an orange and white circle
Conn - been a boring square since the beginning
Delaware - used to be a boring square before they went to the boring circle
DC - used to be a city route size (11") US shield shape with DC in the crown
Florida - been the white square since they changed away from a diamond
Georgia - yes
Hawaii - yes
Idaho - was a white square with state outline before the current black square
Illinois - was a white rectangle with state outline
Indiana - another one that was white rectangle with state outline
Iowa - was a cutout boring circle
Kansas - been a black square since the beginning
Kentucky - was a cutout boring circle
Louisiana - used to be a diamond (along with other southeastern states) that featured a pelican before going to a white square with state outline
Maine - been a boring square since the beginning
Maryland - been a boring rectangle since the beginning
Massachusetts - been a boring square since the beginning
Michigan - yes
Minnesota - used to be a north star before going to a black and white boring square and then the current design
Mississippi - used to be cutout triangle, then triangle on white square and then black square until recently
Missouri - yes
Montana - been a boring square since the beginning
Nebraska - used to be a diamond shape but the covered wagon design has been there since the beginning
Nevada - was a white square from the beginning, never a cutout
New Hampshire - been a boring square since the beginning
New Jersey - yes
New Mexico - yes
New York - yes
North Carolina - yes
North Dakota - started out as a white square but same basic layout
Ohio - yes
Oklahoma - yellow diamond at the beginning, then boring square, then boring circle, and now cleaver
Oregon - yes
Pennsylvania - yes
Rhode Island - been a boring square since the beginning
South Carolina - was at one point a white square with state outline, then boring square for a while, now rectangle
South Dakota - yes - was state outline cutout, then a boring square for many years, then Rushmore design, then current state outline
Tennessee - was a cutout triangle, then white square triangle, then black square triangle, then current style
Texas - used to be a five-pointed star on a white square
Utah - big letter U was changed to beehive in 1961.  all big U shields were cutouts
Vermont - been a boring square since the beginning
Virginia - yes
Washington - been a black square since the beginning
West Virginia - been a boring square since the beginning
Wisconsin - used to be a simple triangle, then they added the oblong behind it, and this cutout form was turned into a black square
Wyoming - the first generation was a porcelain rectangle with a triangle on it, and then they introduced the cowboy
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Michael in Philly

#31
Connecticut apparently went through a phase where they were using a white square, with an outline of the state in it (and "Conn." above it, maybe?) and the number inside the outline.  15 to 20 years ago you saw a lot of these on the Merritt Parkway.

New Hampshire has the Old Man of the Mountain outline.  Someone here's got it in his avatar.

Unless, by "boring square," you mean the signs themselves were always square, never cutout....

Added:  Vermont used to use circles, now a green-and-white thing with a sort of cross-bar above the route number with "Vermont" in it - reminiscent of the font they use on their license plates - and the number in a sort of flattened circle.

Edit 2:  I like Maryland's markers, which are not a simple boring rectangle.  (And give the state extra points for having one of the best flags in the world.)
RIP Dad 1924-2012.

agentsteel53

Quote from: Michael in Philly on August 11, 2010, 11:53:43 AM
Connecticut apparently went through a phase where they were using a white square, with an outline of the state in it (and "Conn." above it, maybe?) and the number inside the outline.  15 to 20 years ago you saw a lot of these on the Merritt Parkway.

were those ever used outside of the Merritt area?  that's the only place I've ever seen them - either Route 15 trailblazers, or for other numbers, shields that appeared on the parkway itself.

QuoteNew Hampshire has the Old Man of the Mountain outline.  Someone here's got it in his avatar.

they only switched to that sometime around the 60s or 70s.  Before that, it was the square from 1926 on.  Every New England state used the boring square because that was the symbol for the New England highway system.

QuoteUnless, by "boring square," you mean the signs themselves were always square, never cutout....

nope, I mean a square with no other design - just number and state name (and sometimes not even that).  Not even a cowboy.

QuoteAdded:  Vermont used to use circles, now a green-and-white thing with a sort of cross-bar above the route number with "Vermont" in it - reminiscent of the font they use on their license plates - and the number in a sort of flattened circle.

yep, but they were a square state from 1926 to 1973 or so.
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Michael in Philly

It wasn't clear to me you were talking about history before a certain date.  I don't know the answer about Connecticut-outline signs away from the Merritt.  Is this your site - www.aaroads.com/shields/ ?  That's impressive.  You should try to get hold of the old Interstate-shaped shields for the RI 195 expressway (which may no longer exist - I mean the route itself may no longer exist.  It was the shape of an Interstate marker, but black on white, with "Rhode Island" where "Interstate" would normally be (and, obviously, nothing below the horizontal line.  Why am I going on about this?  Because the Interstate-configured DC-US 1's (which I never knew about) reminded me of it.))
RIP Dad 1924-2012.

agentsteel53

If I can ever find a photo of one of those RI-195s I'd love to see it.  They were around in the 80s but I haven't seen one in years.
live from sunny San Diego.

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yakra

Quote from: ctsignguy on August 10, 2010, 09:52:37 PMas jake says, the shape of the State kinda makes reverting back to them rather difficult under current MUTCD regs...
What prevents this?

Maine humorist Gary Crocker on the Boring Square:
http://www.garycrocker.com/sound/22mph-grandmother.mp3
"Officer, I'm always careful to drive the speed limit no matter where I am and that's what I was doin'." Said "No, you weren't," she said, "Yes, I was." He said, "Madam, I just clocked you at 22 MPH," and she said "That's the speed limit," he said "No ma'am, that's the route numbah!"  - Gary Crocker

agentsteel53

#36
Quote from: yakra on August 11, 2010, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: ctsignguy on August 10, 2010, 09:52:37 PMas jake says, the shape of the State kinda makes reverting back to them rather difficult under current MUTCD regs...
What prevents this?

the current MUTCD states that all route numbers must be at least Series C wide, and all shields at least 24x24 inches with at least 8" high digits, which is just topologically inconsistent with the older 12x18 Illinois shields and that vertically oriented state outline.

one thing to do would possibly be what Florida does - cut away enough of the state outline to fit in the number.  In fact, Illinois did that as well.  Maybe just put this shield style on a wider blank?



if you play it well, you could even fit the word ILLINOIS in there without compromising legibility.  Tonight, if I have the time, I'll put together a mockup.

that said, I am not 100% sure if Florida is in compliance with the current MUTCD, since they feature an outline shield, as opposed to a solid background.  The 1961 MUTCD states that the state route shield is to be "fundamentally similar" to the US route shield, and that is why a lot of states switched from outline designs to solid ones in that year, as the 1948 style outline shield white square US marker was changed to the current black square.

For example, this North Dakota style gave way to the current one.



I haven't looked in detail at an MUTCD more recent than 1961.  
live from sunny San Diego.

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TheStranger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:48:54 PM
The 1961 MUTCD states that the state route shield is to be "fundamentally similar" to the US route shield, and that is why a lot of states switched from outline designs to solid ones in that year, as the 1948 style outline shield white square US marker was changed to the current black square.

In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

I really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

#38
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

CA uses the last federal cutout US marker style - the "US only" that was, in 1961, specified to be paired with an interstate shield as a freeway reassurance marker.  A lot of states have used them in a lot of contexts - I've got a photo of a US 167 trailblazer from Arkansas that is the California style, for example.  As far as I know, though, CA is the one state that has ever used them universally.  Well, more power to them, as they did invent the style in 1956.

QuoteI really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!

and loop roads, farm roads, ranch roads, beltways, park roads, NASA access roads, etc etc.  Texas sure gets a lot of mileage out of the boring square!
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

TheStranger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

CA uses the last federal cutout US marker style - the "US only" that was, in 1961, specified to be paired with an interstate shield as a freeway reassurance marker.  A lot of states have used them in a lot of contexts - I've got a photo of a US 167 trailblazer from Arkansas that is the California style, for example.  As far as I know, though, CA is the one state that has ever used them universally.  Well, more power to them, as they did invent the style in 1956.

I wonder if the cost savings to go all-square as opposed to cutout are negligable, though California has plenty of milage that they'd be ordering in bulk (and having a better economy of scale) regardless of what shape they used.

It's not as if the Golden State has ever regularly used or even considered painted squares, and for whatever reason, they don't seem motivated to start now (which is awesome).


Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
QuoteI really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!

and loop roads, farm roads, ranch roads, beltways, park roads, NASA access roads, etc etc.  Texas sure gets a lot of mileage out of the boring square!

It's understandable given Texas's size, but I'm amused by the fact that with all the variants of state-route types, one can theoretically reuse the same state route number 4 or 5 times for different types of road!
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

#40
as for them using cutout state route markers - that's a bit tougher to answer.  The 1948 MUTCD specified 24" outline shields on the white background for intersection markers, which quite a few states (Miss, Washington, New Jersey etc) took to mean "more abstract cutouts".  The 16" reassurance marker was still present in the 1961 MUTCD - with the state/US style for US routes.  Though by then some states had switched to 16" cutouts with no state name or other adornment (see Virginia), which was not quite compliant but as it was more legible than what was compliant, nobody cared. 

the 1970 MUTCD did not say anything on the topic of cutouts for reassurance, but did mandate that all shields be at least 24 inches, which for most states meant the dropping of the cutout style, and the use of the large 24" intersection markers (black squares) in all contexts. This kept inventory a lot simpler.  Though some states, like Minnesota and Nebraska, simply moved to 24" black squares while keeping the state/US style.

Since California did not have any state or US markers in 1970 that were smaller than 24 inches, they were technically in compliance and did not change any of their shield styles. 

Never mind that they had, and still have, 21x18 interstate shields on the books, and in fact still put them up every so often.  I do not remember what the 1970 MUTCD had to say on the topic of 18" interstate shields.


Post Merge: August 12, 2010, 02:10:06 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:00:05 PM
I wonder if the cost savings to go all-square as opposed to cutout are negligable, though California has plenty of milage that they'd be ordering in bulk (and having a better economy of scale) regardless of what shape they used.

It's not as if the Golden State has ever regularly used or even considered painted squares, and for whatever reason, they don't seem motivated to start now (which is awesome).

it certainly simplifies things for inventory control.  A 24" square with rounded corners is a 24" square with rounded corners.  In fact, a lot of places order the blanks in bulk with the holes punched for both square and diagonal mounting.

This sign from Kansas has two sets of mounting holes, with only one receiving any use.

live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

TheStranger

How much more legible are 24" markers in comparison to 16" markers?  Surely the removal of the crossbar and the statename should've helped for the latter...

It's an interesting coincidence that the larger marker came into prevalance around the time that California was looking to eliminate the lengthy US route concurrencies...essentially, one larger sign supplanting four or so smaller shields!
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:22:50 PM
How much more legible are 24" markers in comparison to 16" markers?  Surely the removal of the crossbar and the statename should've helped for the latter...

the 16" shields are so rare that every time I run across one I remark just how tiny they are!  Especially when mounted high (to deter theft), 16" signs can really take their sweet time revealing themselves.  Virginia's a good place to see lots of 16" shields in the wild.
live from sunny San Diego.

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TheStranger

I've see photos of Virginia's US-route cutouts and thought they were pretty neat.  Were they the last non-California state to use US route cutouts extensively?
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

#44
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:28:51 PM
I've see photos of Virginia's US-route cutouts and thought they were pretty neat.  Were they the last non-California state to use US route cutouts extensively?

yes.  most states stopped in 1970, or just a few years thereafter, but they were using the state-named style.  Oregon, 1974.  Missouri, 1973.  Kansas, 1978, may have been the last state putting up the state-named style but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s. 

I do not know when Montana switched away from the California-style cutouts, but they were still using them in 1973. 

Post Merge: August 12, 2010, 02:10:19 PM

as for small highway markers, Oregon is the last state to regularly use 18" shields.  I am quite sure they're still being put up, especially at T-intersections underneath a set of green distance signs in either direction.
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hm insulators

Quote from: corco on August 09, 2010, 11:18:03 PM
I like how Wyoming and Colorado use slightly mis-proportioned cutout state outlines, that's for sure

I don't think those were intended to be outline maps of Colorado and Wyoming; they were just meant to be square signs. At least these two states employ some creativity on their state highway markers; Colorado's is the best of all 50 in my opinion.
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At what age do you tell a highway that it's been adopted?

agentsteel53

Quote from: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 03:27:55 PM
I don't think those were intended to be outline maps of Colorado and Wyoming; they were just meant to be square signs. At least these two states employ some creativity on their state highway markers; Colorado's is the best of all 50 in my opinion.

Colorado's marker has great promise, but the resultant "squashed" field for the number is a bit disproportionate.  I'd decrease the flag's height, while keeping the general layout, to vaguely make it resemble a Minnesota marker in proportion.
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Brandon

RE: US shield cutouts,

Michigan was using a US cutout that omitted the "US" at the top.  No idea when they dropped this, but I think it should make a comeback.
US-23, US-27, US-127.
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agentsteel53

Quote from: Brandon on August 11, 2010, 04:04:04 PM
RE: US shield cutouts,

Michigan was using a US cutout that omitted the "US" at the top.  No idea when they dropped this, but I think it should make a comeback.
US-23, US-27, US-127.

I had forgotten about Michigan.  that's an example of a state that interpreted the 1948 spec to say "large cutout", as opposed to "large white square".  those shields were used 1948-1970.  In 1970 is when Michigan caught up to the federal standard - before that, the freeway junction and signs were of that cutout style, and other contexts got MICHIGAN/US shields in 16, 24, and 36 inch sizes.
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mightyace

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:31:48 AM
Tennessee - was a cutout triangle, then white square triangle, then black square triangle, then current style

The black square triangle is very much in use for Tennessee's secondary state highways.


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