Yield or stop?

[Revive 755]

I tried deftly avoiding mention of the mini roundabout, because I didn't want this thread to devolve into an argument about whether roundabouts are good or bad.

Nah, now this thread is going to steer towards if mini roundabouts are worse than regular roundabouts   

I say the mini's are worse because they are designed so if a large truck needs to make a turn, they can drive over the center island and make a traditional left turn versus going around the circle (or so I've been told).  So what is to stop anyone else from simply driving over the center island?  And is this really safer, given the violation of driver expectations?

[realjd]

I tried deftly avoiding mention of the mini roundabout, because I didn't want this thread to devolve into an argument about whether roundabouts are good or bad.

Nah, now this thread is going to steer towards if mini roundabouts are worse than regular roundabouts   

I say the mini's are worse because they are designed so if a large truck needs to make a turn, they can drive over the center island and make a traditional left turn versus going around the circle (or so I've been told).  So what is to stop anyone else from simply driving over the center island?  And is this really safer, given the violation of driver expectations?

Physically yes, anyone can drive over a small mini roundabout. In the UK they even have some where it's literally a circle painted on the ground. But making it a mini roundabout defines ROW at the intersection. Just like we have rules for a 4-way stop, this is how people treat a 4-way yield in places with mini roundabouts.

[kphoger]

Yeah, paint persuades most people from doing what isn't allowed.  In cases where there would be vehicle conflicts, then the presence of other cars in the roundabout would also dissuade most people from just barging across.

Not to mention, as I said, they do make metal islands that are not quite flush.

[1995hoo]

I tried deftly avoiding mention of the mini roundabout, because I didn't want this thread to devolve into an argument about whether roundabouts are good or bad.

Nah, now this thread is going to steer towards if mini roundabouts are worse than regular roundabouts   

I say the mini's are worse because they are designed so if a large truck needs to make a turn, they can drive over the center island and make a traditional left turn versus going around the circle (or so I've been told).  So what is to stop anyone else from simply driving over the center island?  And is this really safer, given the violation of driver expectations?

Physically yes, anyone can drive over a small mini roundabout. In the UK they even have some where it's literally a circle painted on the ground. But making it a mini roundabout defines ROW at the intersection. Just like we have rules for a 4-way stop, this is how people treat a 4-way yield in places with mini roundabouts.

What I dislike in the UK are the "chained" mini-roundabouts (with the exception that I loved the Magic Roundabout in Swindon). Even my British friends hate those things. Here's a Street View of one I encountered in Bristol: http://goo.gl/maps/UT95Y 

I was coming from the same direction as the blue Ford located to the left of the camera and I wanted to, in essence, go straight (meaning take the first exit from the first mini-roundabout and the second exit from the second mini-roundabout). I think what made me uncomfortable was the very cramped quarters and knowing I might have to give way on entering the second mini-roundabout (ultimately I did not). I think the Magic Roundabout was different because it felt like there was more room–they weren't rammed right up against each other.

I cannot imagine chained mini-roundabouts becoming common or successful in the United States.

(BTW, here's the satellite view of that spot in Bristol: http://goo.gl/maps/n7QL4 )

[agentsteel53]

to resurrect a slightly dusty thread:

I was thinking about this while driving through a four-way-stop infested neighborhood this Sunday, having to stop 6-8 times for absolutely no traffic. 

what if we replaced all the STOP signs at an intersection with a pair: YIELD (standard triangle) and a rectangle "TO TRAFFIC IN INTERSECTION".

what are the disadvantages of it?  I feel like this is such a simple solution - requiring no intersection redesign - that if there weren't something overtly flawed about it, it would be more regularly implemented.

[kphoger]

It leaves open the problem that a driver would not be legally obligated to yield to a vehicle a mere three inches away from entering the intersection.

The more I think about the problem, the more certain I become that no possible solution would actually function any differently than an uncontrolled intersection.  The best I can come up with, in fact, is a YIELD sign with an ALL WAY plaque below it.  That at least lets you know that cross traffic isn't facing a STOP sign–which is one problem with uncontrolled intersections.

[agentsteel53]

It leaves open the problem that a driver would not be legally obligated to yield to a vehicle a mere three inches away from entering the intersection.

The more I think about the problem, the more certain I become that no possible solution would actually function any differently than an uncontrolled intersection.  The best I can come up with, in fact, is a YIELD sign with an ALL WAY plaque below it.  That at least lets you know that cross traffic isn't facing a STOP sign–which is one problem with uncontrolled intersections.

the uncontrolled intersection would be priority to the right, while this one would give priority to a car from the left if it was already in the intersection. 

let's say vehicles approached from the west and the south.  W arrives first, by a split second. 

priority-to-the-right implies it must slow or stop to allow S to proceed.

yielding to traffic already in the intersection implies that S must slow or stop for W.

[kphoger]

It leaves open the problem that a driver would not be legally obligated to yield to a vehicle a mere three inches away from entering the intersection.

The more I think about the problem, the more certain I become that no possible solution would actually function any differently than an uncontrolled intersection.  The best I can come up with, in fact, is a YIELD sign with an ALL WAY plaque below it.  That at least lets you know that cross traffic isn't facing a STOP sign–which is one problem with uncontrolled intersections.

the uncontrolled intersection would be priority to the right, while this one would give priority to a car from the left if it was already in the intersection. 

let's say vehicles approached from the west and the south.  W arrives first, by a split second. 

priority-to-the-right implies it must slow or stop to allow S to proceed.

yielding to traffic already in the intersection implies that S must slow or stop for W.

I guess I give way to traffic already in the intersection anyway at uncontrolled intersections.  Otherwise, I'd end up in a car wreck.  But my point remains that a four-way yield would function the same as an uncontrolled intersection.  That is, people would either blow through them at 30 mph without looking, or would come to a dead stop and have no clue who's supposed to go first.

[31E]

Yield or stop? I strongly favor yielding over stopping for almost all intersections where stop signs are posted now.

I would think a four-way yield would be better than an uncontrolled intersection, because it discourages people from thinking they have the right of way and then acting accordingly (blowing through the intersection). The law should be written so that a four-way yield functions like a four-way stop, but without a full stop being required. A "slow, proceed with caution" sign represents another possibility for these sort of intersections. If I were in charge, I'd put in a roundabout if two streets of equal importance intersected, rather than a four-way stop; otherwise I'd use yield signs (four-way or two-way) and in some situations such as cul-de-sacs I'd leave it uncontrolled. Of course, we could sidestep the problem of four-way yields altogether by posting two-way yields everywhere (that's the British approach).

[agentsteel53]

indeed, a sign that said 'EXECUTE CALIFORNIA ROLLING STOP LIKE YOU ALREADY DO' would work just fine.

[jeffandnicole]

indeed, a sign that said 'EXECUTE CALIFORNIA ROLLING STOP LIKE YOU ALREADY DO' would work just fine.

Personally, I would prefer to see this: "SOUTH PHILLY SLIDE PERMITTED".

[kphoger]

Or just put a MEH. plaque below the stop sign.