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Author Topic: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming  (Read 32316 times)

agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2009, 09:45:46 PM »

I don't like paying taxes either, but roads don't come for free.  Wyoming has discovered an inequity in who is using the roads vs who is paying for them, and they seek to rectify that inequity, and increase the balance in favor of their own residents.  Seems fair to me. 

if you don't want your federal taxes going to another state, take it up with the feds, not the state of Wyoming.  Wyoming is looking out for their own interest.  Good for them.
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2009, 10:52:08 PM »

"how much sales and motel tax do they get?  It isn't anywhere near the $100 or so they would toll a truck to get across on I-80."

It should be noted that food has no sales tax in Wyoming

Another note to make is that in the wintertime, I-70 is closed a heck of a lot more often than I-80, further limiting options.

I would also argue that with the exception of Colorado and Utah's interstates, Wyoming benefits a lot less from the rest of the nation's interstate system as so few people live here. Certainly more non-Wyomingite miles are driven within Wyoming than Wyomingite miles driven outside of Wyoming, so Wyoming is at an imbalance there, and to me the argument that Wyoming shouldn't get at least $2 for every $1 spent boosting the rest of the nation's infrastructure is absurd, as due to our low population we give away far more miles to other states than we take up.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 11:03:58 PM by corco »
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Terry Shea

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2009, 11:04:07 PM »

I don't like paying taxes either, but roads don't come for free.  Wyoming has discovered an inequity in who is using the roads vs who is paying for them, and they seek to rectify that inequity, and increase the balance in favor of their own residents.  Seems fair to me. 

if you don't want your federal taxes going to another state, take it up with the feds, not the state of Wyoming.  Wyoming is looking out for their own interest.  Good for them.
They're getting more than their fair share of federal tax revenues, meaning that the brunt of the funding they receive is from outside the state of Wyoming.  I don't see how they can complain about it being unfair.  But hey, go ahead with the toll plan and when traffic dwindles to 1000 vehicles a day or so they'll know they made a big mistake.  I'm sure the businesses along the route won't mind a drastic decrease in traffic, not to mention the fact that service plazas will no doubt be built along the route bankrupting most of the small businesses along the exits.  Yeah, they're looking out for #1 alright!
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2009, 11:21:30 PM »

Quote
They're getting more than their fair share of federal tax revenues, meaning that the brunt of the funding they receive is from outside the state of Wyoming.  I don't see how they can complain about it being unfair.  But hey, go ahead with the toll plan and when traffic dwindles to 1000 vehicles a day or so they'll know they made a big mistake.  I'm sure the businesses along the route won't mind a drastic decrease in traffic, not to mention the fact that service plazas will no doubt be built along the route bankrupting most of the small businesses along the exits.  Yeah, they're looking out for #1 alright!

Before continuing to make inaccurate statements, I beg you to read the feasibility study linked to in the first post that indicates that there will be no service plazas, as the toll zone WILL BE a single tollbooth between Rock Springs and Rawlins (where I-80 is literally the only possibly reasonable route and evasion is unreasonable). Everywhere else will be free entry/exit which means...oh hey...no service plazas!

Also, what insane businessman would build a service plaza along a highway with 1000 vehicles per day, as you speculate?

edit by AgentSteel53: quote tags were misplaced slightly
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 11:26:58 PM by agentsteel53 »
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agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2009, 11:25:58 PM »

wait wait wait, two different arguments here.  The constant noting of the imbalance in federal revenues is just grousing!  Take it up with the state of Michigan to get more money from the feds, as Wyoming has seemingly successfully done.

As for the possibility of traffic diminishing ... the key is to find the right toll amount, so that traffic does not appreciably dwindle.  That is a nonzero amount, especially if combined with a lower gas tax.  In that case, truckers will make it a point to tank up in Wyoming, which will help local businesses.
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Terry Shea

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2009, 11:28:43 PM »

"how much sales and motel tax do they get?  It isn't anywhere near the $100 or so they would toll a truck to get across on I-80."

It should be noted that food has no sales tax in Wyoming

Another note to make is that in the wintertime, I-70 is closed a heck of a lot more often than I-80, further limiting options.

I would also argue that with the exception of Colorado and Utah's interstates, Wyoming benefits a lot less from the rest of the nation's interstate system as so few people live here. Certainly more non-Wyomingite miles are driven within Wyoming than Wyomingite miles driven outside of Wyoming, so Wyoming is at an imbalance there, and to me the argument that Wyoming shouldn't get at least $2 for every $1 spent boosting the rest of the nation's infrastructure is absurd, as due to our low population we give away far more miles to other states than we take up.
Their may be no sales tax on food, but restaurants along the route rely on people exiting the freeway to eat.  Say goodbye to small business owners.

I doubt I-70 is closed more than I-80.  The elevation may be higher but it's still very high along I-80 and runs further north.  Do you have a reference for this?

I think your last argument is absurd.  For such a large state there are only 3 interstates to maintain, and you are indeed receiving federal money to do just that.  If trucks are indeed tearing up the pavement why not restrict load limits?

But make any argument you want.  The fact is that there will be a lot less people visiting the state of Wyoming if they toll I-80 and it will no doubt cripple the economy.  Very bad move economically.
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agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2009, 11:30:00 PM »

the toll zone WILL BE a single tollbooth between Rock Springs and Rawlins (where I-80 is literally the only possibly reasonable route and evasion is unreasonable).

going up 191, to 28, to 287 is about a 150 mile detour, at a cost of 3-4 hours.

some people may try to run that, especially if it avoids a $100 toll assessed at a single point.  Maybe put another tollbooth, trucks only, at Green River or so?
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agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2009, 11:34:26 PM »

I doubt I-70 is closed more than I-80.  The elevation may be higher but it's still very high along I-80 and runs further north.  Do you have a reference for this?

80 has been long-known as the most sensible Rockies crossing north of 40.  The Lincoln Highway went through that corridor! 

Quote
I think your last argument is absurd.  For such a large state there are only 3 interstates to maintain, and you are indeed receiving federal money to do just that.  If trucks are indeed tearing up the pavement why not restrict load limits?

because that would kill traffic through Wyoming far worse than a toll ever would.
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2009, 11:35:28 PM »

Quote
I think your last argument is absurd.  For such a large state there are only 3 interstates to maintain, and you are indeed receiving federal money to do just that.  If trucks are indeed tearing up the pavement why not restrict load limits?

My source for I-70 vs I-80 is living in the area and watching this happen. It snows more on I-70 than I-80, plain and simple. You don't hear about the incredible skiing in Wyoming because it just doesn't snow that much in Wyoming. It does in Colorado.

Rhode Island also only has 3 interstates! Check our total mileage and you'll see we have 914 miles of interstate, more than most states, all of which have a higher population.

Also, if you think the towns along the I-80 corridor are dependent on I-80 for their existence, you'd be badly incorrect. Evanston is popular as a Salt Lake City fireworks/gambling/liquor destination, Green River/Rock Springs/Rawlins are dependent on natural resources (oil, wind, coal), Laramie is university, and Cheyenne is government. Out of state I-80 travel has very little impact on local economies. Evanston's proximity to Utah wouldn't immediately disappear, Green River/Rock Springs/Rawlins critical oil reserves wouldn't disappear, UW wouldn't disappear, and government and Warren AFB would still be in Cheyenne. There'd be a slight hit, for sure, but it wouldn't be crippling.

Terry Shea

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2009, 11:37:41 PM »

Quote
They're getting more than their fair share of federal tax revenues, meaning that the brunt of the funding they receive is from outside the state of Wyoming.  I don't see how they can complain about it being unfair.  But hey, go ahead with the toll plan and when traffic dwindles to 1000 vehicles a day or so they'll know they made a big mistake.  I'm sure the businesses along the route won't mind a drastic decrease in traffic, not to mention the fact that service plazas will no doubt be built along the route bankrupting most of the small businesses along the exits.  Yeah, they're looking out for #1 alright!

Before continuing to make inaccurate statements, I beg you to read the feasibility study linked to in the first post that indicates that there will be no service plazas, as the toll zone WILL BE a single tollbooth between Rock Springs and Rawlins (where I-80 is literally the only possibly reasonable route and evasion is unreasonable). Everywhere else will be free entry/exit which means...oh hey...no service plazas!

Also, what insane businessman would build a service plaza along a highway with 1000 vehicles per day, as you speculate?

edit by AgentSteel53: quote tags were misplaced slightly
What insane politician would seek to build a tollway in an economically depressed state that relies greatly on tourism?  And just because the feasibility study may indicate no service plazas, you'd have to be pretty naive to believe they wouldn't crop up before plans are finalized.  I thought service plazas were usually controlled (and more or less run) by the state.
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Terry Shea

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2009, 11:39:39 PM »

I doubt I-70 is closed more than I-80.  The elevation may be higher but it's still very high along I-80 and runs further north.  Do you have a reference for this?

80 has been long-known as the most sensible Rockies crossing north of 40.  The Lincoln Highway went through that corridor! 

Quote
I think your last argument is absurd.  For such a large state there are only 3 interstates to maintain, and you are indeed receiving federal money to do just that.  If trucks are indeed tearing up the pavement why not restrict load limits?

because that would kill traffic through Wyoming far worse than a toll ever would.
I wouldn't bet on that!
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agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2009, 11:40:28 PM »

What insane politician would seek to build a tollway in an economically depressed state that relies greatly on tourism?  And just because the feasibility study may indicate no service plazas, you'd have to be pretty naive to believe they wouldn't crop up before plans are finalized.  I thought service plazas were usually controlled (and more or less run) by the state.

Wyoming, tourist trap? 

specifically, I-80, tourist trap??
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2009, 11:41:12 PM »

Quote
What insane politician would seek to build a tollway in an economically depressed state that relies greatly on tourism?  And just because the feasibility study may indicate no service plazas, you'd have to be pretty naive to believe they wouldn't crop up before plans are finalized.  I thought service plazas were usually controlled (and more or less run) by the state.

I'm begging you- don't keep stating things without checking facts. You're clearly talking about a state you are fairly unfamiliar with like you know exactly what's going on. Outside of Jackson/Yellowstone/northern Wyoming, which is I-80 independent, Wyoming and tourism have little to do with each other. Wyoming is not economically depressed, it is currently second richest in the nation behind Alaska. We are the 2nd most natural resource rich state, and THAT'S our economy. Tourism is a tiny, tiny part of it comparatively. The reason I came to the University of Wyoming is because it HAS MONEY because the state is in fantastic economic shape. Nobody here even realizes there's a recession.

And if traffic counts drop to 1000, like you said, who would want to put their business in a service plaza?

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2009, 11:43:39 PM »

Quote
I think your last argument is absurd.  For such a large state there are only 3 interstates to maintain, and you are indeed receiving federal money to do just that.  If trucks are indeed tearing up the pavement why not restrict load limits?

My source for I-70 vs I-80 is living in the area and watching this happen. It snows more on I-70 than I-80, plain and simple. You don't hear about the incredible skiing in Wyoming because it just doesn't snow that much in Wyoming. It does in Colorado.

Rhode Island also only has 3 interstates! Check our total mileage and you'll see we have 914 miles of interstate, more than most states, all of which have a higher population.

Also, if you think the towns along the I-80 corridor are dependent on I-80 for their existence, you'd be badly incorrect. Evanston is popular as a Salt Lake City fireworks/gambling/liquor destination, Green River/Rock Springs/Rawlins are dependent on natural resources (oil, wind, coal), Laramie is university, and Cheyenne is government. Out of state I-80 travel has very little impact on local economies. Evanston's proximity to Utah wouldn't immediately disappear, Green River/Rock Springs/Rawlins critical oil reserves wouldn't disappear, UW wouldn't disappear, and government and Warren AFB would still be in Cheyenne. There'd be a slight hit, for sure, but it wouldn't be crippling.
I was talking about small businesses such as gas stations, restaurants, etc., which employ something like 99% of the people in this country.

Like I said, go ahead and toll it...but I think you'll all be sorry later on.
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2009, 11:45:42 PM »

Quote
I was talking about small businesses such as gas stations, restaurants, etc., which employ something like 99% of the people in this country.

Like I said, go ahead and toll it...but I think you'll all be sorry later on.

Right, and the people who live in these economic hubs in Wyoming would continue to support these small businesses, and besides hotels I can guarantee you they make up the majority of these businesses. As far as hotels, many people visit these cities in Wyoming for business, and would continue to support the majority of those. Beyond that, yes, there are a couple isolated truck stops but no other real towns. Those may hurt, but on a large scale that's worth it.

agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2009, 11:45:58 PM »

small businesses such as gas stations, restaurants, etc. ... employ something like 99% of the people in this country.

the manufacturing sector may be going through a rough time, but to say that the service sector employs 99% of Americans is ridiculous.
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Alps

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2009, 11:47:24 PM »

I'm going to beg you all, as moderator, to please stop arguing on this thread.  No good will come of this to any of you.

EDIT to clarify: Debate - reasoned debate - is fine.  If it degenerates into political and personal attacks, it is not.  It is on the edge...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 11:54:18 PM by AlpsROADS »
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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2009, 11:47:46 PM »

What insane politician would seek to build a tollway in an economically depressed state that relies greatly on tourism?  And just because the feasibility study may indicate no service plazas, you'd have to be pretty naive to believe they wouldn't crop up before plans are finalized.  I thought service plazas were usually controlled (and more or less run) by the state.

Wyoming, tourist trap? 

specifically, I-80, tourist trap??
Not right along I-80, but a lot of tourist traffic has to use I-80 to connect to wherever they're going to.
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corco

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2009, 11:50:41 PM »

I strongly doubt that anybody planning to take a trip to Yellowstone would cancel it due to the thought of paying a $9 toll, never mind the $25 entry fee into Yellowstone

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2009, 11:57:32 PM »

Quote
What insane politician would seek to build a tollway in an economically depressed state that relies greatly on tourism?  And just because the feasibility study may indicate no service plazas, you'd have to be pretty naive to believe they wouldn't crop up before plans are finalized.  I thought service plazas were usually controlled (and more or less run) by the state.

I'm begging you- don't keep stating things without checking facts. You're clearly talking about a state you are fairly unfamiliar with like you know exactly what's going on. Outside of Jackson/Yellowstone/northern Wyoming, which is I-80 independent, Wyoming and tourism have little to do with each other. Wyoming is not economically depressed, it is currently second richest in the nation behind Alaska. We are the 2nd most natural resource rich state, and THAT'S our economy. Tourism is a tiny, tiny part of it comparatively. The reason I came to the University of Wyoming is because it HAS MONEY because the state is in fantastic economic shape. Nobody here even realizes there's a recession.

And if traffic counts drop to 1000, like you said, who would want to put their business in a service plaza?
Wyoming is better economically than I thought.  However...
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS251174+23-Jan-2009+BW20090123
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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2009, 11:59:49 PM »

I'm going to beg you all, as moderator, to please stop arguing on this thread.  No good will come of this to any of you.

EDIT to clarify: Debate - reasoned debate - is fine.  If it degenerates into political and personal attacks, it is not.  It is on the edge...
We're just having a fun and interesting debate.
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agentsteel53

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2009, 12:02:12 AM »


http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS251174+23-Jan-2009+BW20090123

the article says:

Quote
Wyoming's economic recovery will depend on small business. That message is
driven home in the newly updated Wyoming Small Business Profile released today
by the Office of Advocacy of the U.S. Small Business Administration.

not exactly the most unbiased source.  These days, everyone seems to have a different idea what will be most important towards economic recovery, and a lot of it tends to correlate strongly with their already established political beliefs, or formally declared agenda.
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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2009, 12:03:37 AM »

That's quite interesting- but a few things I should note is that this doesn't distinguish between small businesses and small SERVICE businesses. I know a few people who have an oil well on the property and hire a few people to run it- technically that's a small business. The other is that I'd bet money that a look at I-80 itself would reveal that that corridor is significantly less small service business dependent than most of the rest of the state as it is not a tourist area.

I'd be wrong to deny that the small businesses would take a hit in your doomsday scenario, but I just don't think it would be a particularly significant one.

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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2009, 12:05:42 AM »

small businesses such as gas stations, restaurants, etc. ... employ something like 99% of the people in this country.

the manufacturing sector may be going through a rough time, but to say that the service sector employs 99% of Americans is ridiculous.
Actually I was referring to small businesses, not necessarily just the service industry.  And that was an error on my part.  It's actually about 50% are employed by small businesses.  The 99% figure was referring to the ratio of small businesses to all businesses.  My bad!     ;-)
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Re: Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2009, 12:10:16 AM »

that that corridor is significantly less small service business dependent than most of the rest of the state as it is not a tourist area.

there are indeed hardly any services along that section of I-80.  Note how far out Little America (a tourist-oriented service center - gas, hotel, etc) is advertised; the reason those ads are effective is because there is next to nothing along the way, so drivers are indeed compelled, without distraction, to drive further to get to Little America.
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