AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?  (Read 7990 times)

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« on: August 17, 2015, 03:23:45 PM »

With the planned Gateway Freeway (SR 24), I-10 Reliever (SR 30), and the Pinal North-South Freeway (which would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88) unfunded, does anyone think any of these three freeways could be built as toll roads?

Of the three I would probably say the Pinal North-South Freeway has the greatest chance of being built as a toll road due to lack of quick alternate routes. The Gateway Freeway is IMO the least likely to get tolls due to its short length, thus many would probably use the US 60 Superstition Freeway as a shunpike.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:36:00 AM by andy3175 »
Logged

noelbotevera

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2805
  • Now at a Redbox kiosk near you!

  • Age: 13
  • Location: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
  • Last Login: Today at 08:46:00 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 04:50:53 PM »

With the planned Gateway Freeway (SR 24), I-10 Reliever (SR 30), and the Pinal North-South Freeway (which would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88) unfunded, does anyone think any of these three freeways could be built as toll roads?

Of the three I would probably say the Pinal North-South Freeway has the greatest chance of being built as a toll road due to lack of quick alternate routes. The Gateway Freeway is IMO the least likely to get tolls due to its short length, thus many would probably use the US 60 Superstition Freeway as a shunpike.
I-11 could be tolled through Phoenix, but these other projects - not so much. There are a ton of shunpikes to these routes, and AZ 30 is surely not gonna be tolled, cause that is I-10's reliever....

Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...
Logged
Doing things that nobody wants to do since 2004.
I was THE youngest forum member from May 14th, 2015 to September 25th, 2016.

I am the second Alex, since I currently use my father's name...

TravelingBethelite

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 916
  • My way IS the highway.

  • Age: 17
  • Location: Just off of CT 302 in Bethel
  • Last Login: September 08, 2017, 08:55:24 AM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 06:04:11 PM »

I have never really imagined Phoenix as a good enviroment for tolled roads. regardless, I second that AZ 30 would not be tolled as it is a reliever route of a major freeway. Is the Pinal N-S Freeway numbered, or is it, just that? That's probably, most likely, as it not important enough to justify being numbered. The Gateway might also be tolled, as more people go the entire length of a short highway, but not as many go the length of a long one.
Logged
"Life is a highway, and I want to drive it all night long!" -Tom Cochrane
See my photos at: http://bit.ly/1Qi81ws

"Where will the open road take me next?"

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 06:40:18 PM »


Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...

How would I-8 be used as an alternate?  The Pinal North-South Freeway would serve as a corridor between Apache Junction and Eloy/Picacho.  I-8 isn't even close to this route.

I have never really imagined Phoenix as a good enviroment for tolled roads. regardless, I second that AZ 30 would not be tolled as it is a reliever route of a major freeway. Is the Pinal N-S Freeway numbered, or is it, just that? That's probably, most likely, as it not important enough to justify being numbered. The Gateway might also be tolled, as more people go the entire length of a short highway, but not as many go the length of a long one.

No number currently assigned, however, if it connects to SR 88 in Apache Junction it would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88.
Logged

noelbotevera

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2805
  • Now at a Redbox kiosk near you!

  • Age: 13
  • Location: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
  • Last Login: Today at 08:46:00 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 09:01:01 PM »


Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...

How would I-8 be used as an alternate?  The Pinal North-South Freeway would serve as a corridor between Apache Junction and Eloy/Picacho.  I-8 isn't even close to this route.
The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.
Logged
Doing things that nobody wants to do since 2004.
I was THE youngest forum member from May 14th, 2015 to September 25th, 2016.

I am the second Alex, since I currently use my father's name...

blanketcomputer

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 63
  • Last Login: September 05, 2017, 04:31:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 11:44:11 PM »

The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.

The point of the Pinal North-South freeway isn't to bypass Phoenix. It is to provide mobility within Pinal county and connect Pinal county communities with the Phoenix/Mesa area.
Logged

andy3175

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1212
  • Location: San Diego, California, USA
  • Last Login: September 19, 2017, 09:49:48 AM
    • AARoads
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 12:34:24 AM »

The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.

The point of the Pinal North-South freeway isn't to bypass Phoenix. It is to provide mobility within Pinal county and connect Pinal county communities with the Phoenix/Mesa area.

From a July 2007 ASU study, I think Pinal County is on the verge of becoming its own metropolitan area. (Yes, I know this report is dated and was done before the Great Recession, which calls into question some of the population and growth assumptions made in the report.)

http://www.asu.edu/copp/morrison/PinalReport.pdf

Quote
Will Pinal become a distinguishable destination or simply a
McMega drive through? If Pinal rises to the occasion, the
result can be a vibrant, sustainable, and competitive place
that takes advantage of its location. If Pinal fails to choose
wisely, its bedroom community future is already visible in the
East Valley and subdivisions north of Tucson. As The Future at
Pinal shows, there is interest in large-scale choices for unique
places. However, the outcomes Pinal wants will not become
realities without a sense of urgency, as well as investments of
time, energy, and dollars. In this case, good things will not
come to those who wait. Good things will come to those who
choose, plan, and act.

Those new freeways passing through Pinal would serve the new development likely to occur there in the next several decades of growth, assuming a continuing demand for housing in the desert and water sources are identified.

Here's the identified Pinal transportation list:

Quote
PINAL HAS $3.1 BILLION IN JUST A FEW SELECTED HIGH PRIORITY TRANSPORTATION PROJECTS

Roadway - Cost (in millions)

Construct North/South Freeway - $1,640
Construct Williams Gateway Freeway - $750
Improve S.R. 238 (Maricopa-Casa Grande Highway) - $187
Construct U.S. 60 Reroute Project - $117
Improve U.S. 60 (Ray Road to Florence Junction) - $88
Improve Val Vista Road (I-10 to S.R. 238) - $61
Improve S.R. 79 (Florence Junction to Florence) - $60
Improve S.R. 287 (S.R. 87 to S.R. 79) - $56
Improve Thorton Road (I-8 to S.R. 238) - $51
Improve Park Link Drive (I-10 to S.R. 79) - $42
Improve S.R. 87 (S.R. 387 to S.R. 287) - $38
Improve Hunt Highway (County Line to Arizona Farms Road) - $20
Logged
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

swbrotha100

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 405
  • Last Login: October 02, 2016, 10:07:09 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 02:05:10 PM »

The only roads I have ever heard about being built as toll roads in Arizona have been parts of future I-11 and the Loop 202 South Mountain section. Realistically, I see express toll lanes or HOT lanes being built along parts of I-10, I-17 and other routes that have existing HOV lanes before an actual toll road is built.
Logged

The Ghostbuster

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1672
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: September 18, 2017, 05:35:19 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 03:17:41 PM »

HOT Lanes and Express Toll Lanes are likely the only toll roads that will ever penetrate the Phoenix area. Perhaps that's all that's needed, although I've never been anywhere near Phoenix.
Logged

TravelingBethelite

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 916
  • My way IS the highway.

  • Age: 17
  • Location: Just off of CT 302 in Bethel
  • Last Login: September 08, 2017, 08:55:24 AM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 03:29:51 PM »

HOT Lanes and Express Toll Lanes are likely the only toll roads that will ever penetrate the Phoenix area. Perhaps that's all that's needed, although I've never been anywhere near Phoenix.

Phoenix, just does not seem like an area where turnpike-style tolling would fit well, to me. Unlike, say, Pennsylvania or Massachusetts, Arizona does not have the kind of long-distance traffic to support, but it has the commuting traffic to suit HOT lanes/Express Toll Lanes.  :-/
Logged
"Life is a highway, and I want to drive it all night long!" -Tom Cochrane
See my photos at: http://bit.ly/1Qi81ws

"Where will the open road take me next?"

dfwmapper

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 624
  • Location: DFW
  • Last Login: June 18, 2017, 12:20:34 AM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 08:46:46 PM »

Maricopa County has twice passed sales tax measures specifically to fund transportation. I find it highly unlikely that any tollways would be built within the county because voters wouldn't want to add a separate funding mechanism on top of what they're already paying. Pinal County has its own sales tax dedicated to transportation, but as far as I can find in a few minutes of searching that money goes solely to city and county road projects, where Maricopa passes a good chunk of their money back to ADOT to fund freeway construction. Pinal may decide to do the same as population and revenues grow, but they've still got a lot of rural roads that will need improvement to support that new population, so no guarantees.
Logged

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 10:26:52 PM »

The only roads I have ever heard about being built as toll roads in Arizona have been parts of future I-11 and the Loop 202 South Mountain section. Realistically, I see express toll lanes or HOT lanes being built along parts of I-10, I-17 and other routes that have existing HOV lanes before an actual toll road is built.

The South Mountain Freeway will not be tolled since there is already funding in place for the selected alignment.

This reminds me, on April 1, 2008, there was an April Fool's joke on KTAR stating that three of the Phoenix area freeways became toll roads overnight to help balance the state's budget.  The kicker was the prices of the tolls: $1.01 for Loop 101, $2.02 for Loop 202, and $0.51 for SR 51.  The joke said the everyone would be required to have exact change, or ADOT would make them turn around.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 10:49:33 PM by Pink Jazz »
Logged

beau99

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 16
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Phoenix, AZ
  • Last Login: July 24, 2017, 06:27:31 PM
    • Twitter
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 02:07:22 PM »

We've always paid extra sales tax to fund roads and other things.

I can't see toll roads here anytime soon.
Logged
If you address me, call me Star, please - I'm transgender My username no longer represents me.

blanketcomputer

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 63
  • Last Login: September 05, 2017, 04:31:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 10:08:29 PM »

The Prop. 400 sales tax expires in 2025 unless voters extend it. If that revenue disappears, that is the only time I can see toll roads becoming an option in the valley.
Logged

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3534
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 11:46:51 AM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 12:04:20 PM »

The Prop. 400 sales tax expires in 2025 unless voters extend it. If that revenue disappears, that is the only time I can see toll roads becoming an option in the valley.
In a word, no. They won't have to worry about that for the next ten years.
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2015, 12:31:01 PM »

In a word, no. They won't have to worry about that for the next ten years.

In addition, ever since ADOT took full control of the state's logo sign program in 2012 from Arizona Logo Sign Group (a subsidiary of Logo Signs of America, Inc.), the revenue collected from the logo sign rents now goes towards building and maintaining roads.  Prior to 2012 when Arizona Logo Sign Group had the state's logo sign contract, ADOT did not receive any revenue from the program. 

Also, now that logo signs are being installed in urban areas, that boosts ADOT's revenue even further, since there are many businesses competing to be on logo signs in urban areas and the rates are higher than in the rural areas.
Logged

dfwmapper

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 624
  • Location: DFW
  • Last Login: June 18, 2017, 12:20:34 AM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2015, 11:47:53 PM »

I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.
Logged

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 11:48:13 AM »

I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.

One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall.  After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.
Logged

swbrotha100

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 405
  • Last Login: October 02, 2016, 10:07:09 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 03:27:59 PM »

Like I mentioned earlier, HOT lanes have been proposed as one of many options to improve the I-10 (Maricopa) /I-17 corridor, stretching from I-17/Loop 101 (North Stack) to I-10/Loop 202 (Pecos Stack). A couple links:

https://www.azmag.gov/Projects/Project.asp?CMSID2=6898

http://www.azmag.gov/Documents/SPINE_2015-02-25_Spine-Study-Public-Information-Meeting-Presentation-Banners.pdf Look near the end of the PDF file for the HOT/HOV mention.
Logged

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2016, 07:09:39 PM »

Sorry to bump, but I found out that the Pinal North-South Freeway is in fact being considered as a candidate to be built via a public-private partnership as a potential toll road.  After all, Proposition 400 (the tax Maricopa County residents pay to fund freeways and mass transit) does not cover Pinal County, thus alternative sources of funding would be needed to build it. 

From what I read though, Florence and Coolidge seem to be in disagreement with each other over the issue of tolls.  While Florence has stated they would support it being built as a toll road, Coolidge is against the idea.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 07:17:28 PM by Pink Jazz »
Logged

CtrlAltDel

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 438
  • Location: East Tennessee
  • Last Login: Today at 02:15:52 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2016, 04:38:11 PM »

I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.

One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall.  After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.

And how much does this revenue source bring in?
Logged
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465, 640

The Ghostbuster

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1672
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: September 18, 2017, 05:35:19 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2016, 06:25:29 PM »

If tolling helps get the yet-to-be-built freeways get constructed, I say "Go For It!"
Logged

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2016, 06:54:10 PM »

I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.

One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall.  After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.

And how much does this revenue source bring in?

With the urban program now in place and buildout nearly complete (except for a few remaining portions of Loop 303 and any unbuilt freeways including the Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway), the program on average now brings in $6M-$10M in annual revenue.  Since this program is operated in-house, ADOT receives 100% of the revenue.
Logged

kdk

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 50
  • Location: Scottsdale AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 02:35:34 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM »

Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html

Logged

Pink Jazz

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 1131
  • Real Men Wear Pink

  • Age: 29
  • Location: Queen Creek, AZ
  • Last Login: Today at 09:28:49 PM
Re: Could future Phoenix freeways be built as toll roads?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 04:59:01 PM »

Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html

Now that seems like a stupid idea.  People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll.  Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.