Re-shielding existing routes for a Bypass and Spur freeways in Nashville

[SFPredsFan]

1st time poster so just want feedback on my suggestions to TDOT.

I attended a TDOT meeting on long range plans for the I-24 corridor and offered several suggestions to TDOT regarding improvements and alternative routes. The traffic on I-65 and I-24 thru downtown has gotten to gridlock almost all day long and the construction north of downtown where I-24 and I-65 merge for 2 miles is to a slow crawl all day long. 

1) Since Briley Parkway is up to Interstate standards north of I-40, re-shield it a X65 or X24 bypass route. Add control cities of Knoxville and Memphis on I-65 southbound and I-24 eastbound. Also, add Louisville and Clarksville as control cites on east side and west side approaches to Briley Parkway on I-40. That alone would divert 10's of 1,000's of vehicles daily away from the downtown loop.

2) Upgrade Briley Parkway to Interstate standards south of I-40 to I-24 in the SE part of Nashville, re-shield it as a continuation of the newly designated X65 or X24, and add Chattanooga as a control city north of Briley Parkway on I-65 southbound and I-24 eastbound and add Louisville and Clarksville as control cities on I-24 heading west before the approach of Briley in the SE part of Nashville. The Briley Parkway route is literally only 1 mile longer to bypass downtown and would divert even more traffic around the downtown loop.   

3) Re-shield the newly completed SR 840 to Interstate 840 and add control cities of Chattanooga, Huntsville, Memphis, and Knoxville on I-40 approaching I-840 depending direction of travel to divert thru traffic around Nashville. Add "to I-24 east and I-65 south" to east and west bound approaches. I thought the entire idea of building 840 was to get thru traffic to go around Nashville but signage is still not up on either approach to 840. I tend to find that drivers will not take a state route as a bypass since they don't know the quality of the road which 840 is built to Interstate standards. 840 adds 17 miles on I-40 thru traffic but the time savings due to traffic back ups in Nashville and higher speed limits negates the extra mileage especially during the daytime hours.

4) Widen I-24 thru downtown on the eastside to 8 lanes and eliminate the loops ramps and add frontage roads and diamond on/off ramps. It's a real confusing mess. Also, tear down that damn Fern Ave overpass to allow extra lanes(s) to/from I-24 and I-65. That lightly traveled overpass alone causes back ups for miles all day long.

I had more suggestions regarding Ellington Parkway from I-24 to I-65 but I'll get to that later.

Feedback anyone????

[elsmere241]

Making Briley Parkway I-224 has always been a fantasy of mine.  Adding control cities would be a good start.

Upgrading the part in the southeast would be tricky.    The interchange with I-24 would have to be redone (again) to get it to interstate standard.  At least the Currey Road light is long gone, but between Venus Drive and Karen Drive http://goo.gl/maps/oRvXt there are several at-grade interchanges and driveways (some of those residential).

I think TN 840 already has some long-distance control cities - making that standard would be a good idea.

Widening that stretch of I-24 might work.  I think the entire downtown loop (along with the two-mile overlaps for I-24 with I-65 and I-40) need C/D lanes or something similar.  Putting those in would be a hassle though.

[Henry]

As there are no signed I-x24s anywhere, I would welcome I-224 (or I-424) to Briley Parkway.

[codyg1985]

In the interim, putting up signs that suggest through traffic use TN 155 and/or I-440 to bypass downtown would do better, as there are no signs saying that TN 155 is a bypass of any sort. It amazes me how much time TN 155 saves just because out-of-town motorists don't know about it.

I like the idea of both signing TN 155 as an I-x24 and extending it to I-24 east. This would take a lot of through traffic away from downtown that is headed between Chicago and Atlanta. Frontage roads could be put in for the businesses along TN 155 where the at-grade traffic signals are, but as elsmere241 mentions, it would be tricky.

Put in interchanges at Corporate Drive and Vultee Blvd and build frontage roads that connect to those cross-roads. A lot of the residential streets can be eliminated from access to TN 155 around Vultee Blvd. Build an overpass for Knights of Columbia Bivd/Karen Drive over TN 155. Finally, put in a flyover for TN 155 SB to I-24 EB and from I-24 WB to TN 155 NB.

[elsmere241]

Service roads would work in some form, including shifting things so that the current southbound lanes from Airways to Venus become the west service road.  (There is room on the other side and the east service road could connect to McGavock Pike.)  I don't know if I'd where I'd put interchanges, but I'd certainly take out the trumpet at Airways.

[SFPredsFan]

Great suggestions by all. But elsmere241, I would leave the interchange at Airways and force the plant traffic to use it. There plenty of room there to rebuild and extend those ramps. The Vultee at-grade intersection could be closed completely but add a north bound off ramp from Briley through the plant parking lot. Looks like there's plenty of empty parking lots on the north side of the plant for parking. Metro probably owns most of that land from the old BNA terminal and there used to be a hotel and more biz there until the new terminal opened on the east side of the runways. As said above, most of Briley could be widened and shifted a little east and use a frontage road on the existing roadway on the west side to allow for the driveways access. It would be a lot safer for those residents. With the current gridlock only to get worse as Nashville keeps booming I don't think Metro and TDOT will have any choice but to consider upgrading Briley along there and using it as a X65 or X24 bypass. It would be expensive and take time, but be worth it. A huge volume of traffic from the Midwest take I-65 and I-24 thru Nashville to Chattanooga on the way to GA and Fla. I know since I manage a hotel off I-24 in SE Nashville and almost all of my biz is from those states and Floridians heading north.

[Avalanchez71]

Why not number it I-840?  It is not in use. 

[SFPredsFan]

Why not number it I-840?  It is not in use

Not sure you would want to rename SR 155 Briley Pkwy as I-840 since that is being saved for the southern bypass of Nashville. I would hate to see 840 all the way around Nashville with a shared I-40 on the east and west sides. Why TDOT spent all the money to build SR840 and then not follow through with an Interstate designation is beyond me. I could see the south loop as I-840S and Briley Parkway as I-840N but I hate those letter routes and I think it would cause confusion with out of town thru traffic. Just renumber the parkway X65 or X24 and add control cities on all approaches and be done with it. Just don't use I-265 again since it was a west loop bypass before I-65 was rerouted there and there is already a TN SR 265 in Davidson County.

[elsmere241]

When I said take the Airways trumpet out, I meant replace it with something less land-consuming and more efficient and have it connect to one or both service roads (not necessarily at-grade) as well as 224/Briley.  There are plenty of innovative interchange or intersection designs out there that would work.

[SFPredsFan]

I see what you mean now. That interchange could also tie into a frontage road on the west side for local traffic while shifting and widening Briley a little east of it's current alignment. Some property would have to be bought out but TDOT usually pays top dollar to get people to move for expansion projects. That part of Nashville is called Little Tijuana now with mostly older people and illegal aliens that rent. I'll leave it to the engineers to decide but that is a wasted highway in it's current form between I-40 and I-24 that could divert 10's of 1,000's of vehicles around Nashville.

[RoadWarrior56]

There are reasons that I-840 was not initially used for the southern bypass of Nashville.  It mainly had to do with how the roadway was funded (all state funds from my understanding) and the less involved environmental process that was used, based on using no federal funds.  At some point in the future, it would not surprise me to see SR 840 converted to I-840 as a non-chargable interstate, but I figure it might be several more years.  In any case, I figure that interstate number 840 will stay reserved for the southern bypass.

[Avalanchez71]

There are reasons that I-840 was not initially used for the southern bypass of Nashville.  It mainly had to do with how the roadway was funded (all state funds from my understanding) and the less involved environmental process that was used, based on using no federal funds.  At some point in the future, it would not surprise me to see SR 840 converted to I-840 as a non-chargable interstate, but I figure it might be several more years.  In any case, I figure that interstate number 840 will stay reserved for the southern bypass.

This statement is correct.  If this had to go through the Feds they would have never approved the section from I-40 Dickson to I-65.

[SFPredsFan]

Yes, But Gene Cotton and his ilk sued to make TDOT do a complete EIS thru Leiper's Fork but was it was approved by the Feds with a lot of expensive revisions and delays on construction. I did ask at the TDOT meeting if SR840 and SR155 were eligible for Interstate status even if they were built with state funds. TDOT said they were eligible just like SR385 that has been approved as I-269 around Memphis. They said in order to get approved as an Interstate, it isn't so much as how they got built or how they were paid for but that they meet all the criteria that qualifies the road to get Interstate status.

Which also always makes me wonder why all the new freeways in and around Phoenix aren't signed as Interstate loops and spurs.
Anybody know why hasn't AZDOT never asked to have loops 101, 202, and 51 signed as Interstates?

[Henry]

Which also always makes me wonder why all the new freeways in and around Phoenix aren't signed as Interstate loops and spurs.
Anybody know why hasn't AZDOT never asked to have loops 101, 202, and 51 signed as Interstates?

There were proposals for I-x10s in Phoenix and Tucson, but ultimately, they decided against those plans and built the aforementioned freeways with state/municipal funding (as well as the US 60 upgrade to the Superstition Freeway). At least they were smart enough to realize that not every freeway needs an Interstate shield attached to it.

[froggie]

Since Briley Parkway is up to Interstate standards north of I-40,

As I understand it, it's not.  Freeway-grade, certainly, but not Interstate-grade, especially the narrow section west of I-65 (substandard shoulders).

re-shield it a X65 or X24 bypass route. Add control cities of Knoxville and Memphis coming south on I-65 and add Louisville and Clarksville as control cites on east and west bound approaches to Briley Parkway on I-40. That alone would divert 10's of 1,000's of vehicles daily away from the downtown loop.

I think you're overestimating the amount of traffic that is through traffic.

[Avalanchez71]

Maybe a waiver can be handed out for that.  Although TN is a red state so maybe Obama wouldn't hand out a waiver for it.

On the other hand, since we didn't use interstate funds for that strectch of highway why not leave as a state road.  The increased traffic would surely increase the maintaince costs.  Sometimes all factors need to be taken into account.

[SFPredsFan]

That's what I thought too froggie, but I asked about that at the TDOT meeting and they said that all of SR155 north of I-40 is up to Interstate standards and would be eligible since they rebuilt the west side interchange near White's Bridge Road at I-40. Maybe they were thinking they could get waiver since those shoulers and medium are pretty narrow. It's just a matter of time before they have to widen Briley on the west side so anything substandard would be fixed then I would think. And no, I'm not over estimating the thru traffic. Got caught AGAIN yesterday in a hour long traffic jam and the number of out of state plates I see everyday from the Midwest and FL is incredible. That construction zone will be going on for 2 more years and then the Fern Ave overpass construction to the split will be another year or 2. If it saves 1 life to get traffic to bypass that mess it would be worth it to re-shield Briley Parkway.

[roadman65]

Since Briley Parkway is up to Interstate standards north of I-40,

As I understand it, it's not.  Freeway-grade, certainly, but not Interstate-grade, especially the narrow section west of I-65 (substandard shoulders).

re-shield it a X65 or X24 bypass route. Add control cities of Knoxville and Memphis coming south on I-65 and add Louisville and Clarksville as control cites on east and west bound approaches to Briley Parkway on I-40. That alone would divert 10's of 1,000's of vehicles daily away from the downtown loop.

I think you're overestimating the amount of traffic that is through traffic.

Do they still have the utility poles on part of it?  I do remember, them near the Opryland (or now the Outlet Mall), which struck me odd that a freeway would have overhead utilities along its ROW like an arterial when I was there decades ago.  The only thing coming close to it is the Garden State Parkway with its wooden pole roadway lighting, that even they are phasing out for more traditional freeway type of light poles.

I have not been there since 2003, and cannot remember if those poles were relocated then or not, but in 1990 they were there for sure! 

[SFPredsFan]

roadman65, As far as I can see driving through there, there are none now. They widened Briley Parkway on the east side to 8 lanes from I-40 to Ellington Parkway several years ago so they must have moved them for the expansion. 

[froggie]

And no, I'm not over estimating the thru traffic. Got caught AGAIN yesterday in a hour long traffic jam and the number of out of state plates I see everyday from the Midwest and FL is incredible.

All we have (including your example) is empirical evidence to go on.  But as a general rule, the vast majority of traffic in urban areas is local in nature.  And a lot of your traffic that isn't local has either an origin or destination in that urban area.  Even in DC, with as heavy traffic a road as I-95, at most only 30K of the traffic on I-95 is through traffic.

Based on the exurb traffic volumes, especially on I-24 towards Clarksville, there's likely, at the most, about 15K daily through traffic on I-24.  Probably about the same on I-65.  Maybe a little more on I-40.

[SFPredsFan]

Your right I don't know the actual traffic counts that could be bypassed, and I'm no expert on the subject, but when you consider Memphis, Knoxville, Louisville, Clarksville, and Chattanooga bound thru traffic could all be diverted off the downtown loop, 30-50k/day seems like a good guesstimate. That's quite signifigant when you consider that most of that traffic is during daytime hours going thru a very narrow lane construction zone that slows down things even more. Since almost everytime I drive Briley Parkway you could shoot a shotgun down the road and not hit a vehicle, it's got the be the most under utilized highway in Nashville and maybe Tennessee.

[codyg1985]

Even if the amount of through traffic isn't up to 30K AADT, resigning the interchanges and/or slapping an interstate shield onto Briley would divert some traffic away from the downtown area, which would be helpful.

[Avalanchez71]

While we are at it why don't we shield SR 396 as I-365 and SR 386 as I-165.  Then at the end of I-165 it can become BUS SPUR I-165 to Gallatin and then at the end of I-365 we can a BUS SPUR I-365N to Spring Hill and a BUS SPUR I-365S to Columbia.

[Alps]

While we are at it why don't we shield SR 396 as I-365 and SR 386 as I-165.  Then at the end of I-165 it can become BUS SPUR I-165 to Gallatin and then at the end of I-365 we can a BUS SPUR I-365N to Spring Hill and a BUS SPUR I-365S to Columbia.

Let's not get into Fantasy territory here, please. Keep in mind the OP was sharing actual feedback to TnDOT.

[SFPredsFan]

I changed the heading on this rather than start a new thread since it is basically a continuation of the same subject.

Now that I have the discussion of re-naming Briley Parkway to use as a bypass around the downtown loop in Nashville out of my system, I thought I'd go on to the subject of Ellington Parkway which I mentioned in my 1st post that I said I would get to later.

I think almost everyone was in agreement that it would be beneficial to re-name Briley Parkway to an Interstate route and upgrade it to Interstate standards south of I-40 to I-24 on the SE side of Nashville so that Chattanooga, Knoxville, Louisville and Clarksville thru traffic could bypass the downtown Nashville loop. TDOT has to do something for short and long term plans for Nashville thru traffic and I think my suggestions address that something. For the sake of this thread I-465, 224, or 424 was mentioned as the best numbers to use, so lets use I-424 since I-24 has no signed 3 digit spurs or loops but I don't care as long as it's an even number since it connects Interstates. Let's also call Ellington Parkway I-365 since I can't find a Tennessee state highway using that number. If they redo the southern interchange with I-24, Ellington Parkway could be shielded as an even digit Interstate since it would connect 2 Interstates, but for now I-365 makes sense.

At the TDOT meeting, I suggested that Ellington Parkway be used as an Interstate spur from Downtown Nashville to I-65 north. Like Briley Parkway on the east and west sides, Ellington Parkway is a very nice freeway that is under utilized and you could shoot a shotgun down the road and not hit a vehicle most of the day. Meanwhile, I-24 and I-65 north of downtown is a parking lot most if the time and very dangerous driving through the construction zone. Even after the construction is done in 3 or 4 years, traffic could be diverted onto I-365 and take 15-30k vehicles per day off from that concurrent section. My suggestion was to rename it I-x65 since it has a direct tie in on it's north side to I-65 but it's southern termination is not up to Interstate standards and the loop configuration would need a better tie in to I-24 just east of downtown Nashville. The entire interchange should be redone or just add a couple of ramps but the most important tie in is from I-365 southbound to downtown and I-24 eastbound and from westbound I-24 via Ellington Parkway to I-65 northbound. There is plenty of ROW and space to rebuild that interchange but the main problem is that there is no direct ramp southbound to I-24 east, there needs to be better access to downtown from I-365, and there are too many side street on/off ramps at its southern terminus. Anyways, my suggestion was to put Interstate shields approaching Briley Parkway for I-365 and include "To Downtown Nashville" signage on southbound I-65. TDOT spent a lot of money to upgrade that interchange from I-365 to I-65 and it is up to Interstate standards. Most if not all of I-365 is up to standards except for 1 or 2 interchanges and substandard shoulders in places. TDOT could ask for a waiver also and we all know there any many substandard Interstates sections across the country so what the hell is one more if it helps Nashville traffic. Also, an extra main line in each direction eventually could be added in the medium of I-365 with no ROW needed when the traffic counts warrant it which at that time TDOT could bring any deficiencies up to standard. On the eastside of Downtown on I-24 westbound, add signage approaching I-365 "To Louisville" so that that thru traffic could bypass the concurrent sections of I-65 and I-24 just north of downtown. That area will be under construction for at least 4 more years while they widen it and tear out and rebuild the Fern Ave overpass. It is a slow crawl everyday and any traffic diverted would help, so any traffic headed to Downtown from the north and Louisville bound thru traffic from Chattanooga and Knoxville that didn't use I-424 could use I-365. Some might ask why it is so important to re-shield Ellington Parkway as an Interstate and I'll say it again as I did before, most out of town thru traffic will not take a state route since they have no idea of the quality of road even if it is a freeway. I hope I was able to explain my suggestions and at the TDOT meeting they said they were excellent ideas that would not require long term planning, at minimal cost, and not require any new EIS. I am actually meeting with some TDOT officials and consultants to go over my suggestions in a couple of weeks.

Feedback anyone?