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[froggie]

He can promise all he wants.  But delivery is another story entirely.  Especially in his case since there's a pretty good chance he won't be around come next year...

[Scott5114]

A Quinnipiac poll released today shows Specter leading over Republican challenger Pat Toomey 49% to 42%. Of course that's still months from the general election, and the primary has yet to occur (though Specter leads his primary challenger Joe Sestak by around twenty percent), but a 7-point lead certainly doesn't foretell certain doom for Specter.

how dare you cast a Specter over this thread

[hbelkins]

Federal money for a toll road? This one kinda confuses me...

[froggie]

There's precedent....DE 1.  Though that was a pilot project.

[CanesFan27]

A recent story in the Uniontown Herald-Standard reports that the completion of WV 43 to Bower's Lane is scheduled for August 20th.  Wow, that's fast!

A reminder that this will not tie the freeway directly to Interstate 68 as motorists will need to make about a 1/2 mile detour on local roads to get to I-68.  However, when this phase is completed and open sometime after August, it will eliminate nearly seven miles of travel on a narrow and sometimes twisty Highway 857.

WVDOH will build a direct high-speed connection between WV 43 and I-68 when traffic volumes warrant it. That could be years if not decades away.

Story:
http://www.heraldstandard.com/news_detail/article/1253/2010/april/06/bmoving-right-along-b.html

[PAHighways]

Not surprising that it'd be ready to go since WV 43 has basically been sitting completed as we saw during the 2007 SWPA tour.

[SP Cook]

http://ee.dominionpost.com/Olive/ODE/DominionPost/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=RFBvc3QvMjAxMC8wNi8yNA..&pageno=MQ..&entity=QXIwMDEwMw..&view=ZW50aXR5

Opening delayed to an unnamed date in "Spring 2011".

WV and PA could not come to an agreement on the idea of having the southernmost toll in PA split between the two states.  WV will now put up its own toll booths one mile north of I-68.  Tolls will be collected "under contract" with the WVDOH by the WVEDPTA (AKA the Turnpike Commission) whose only other operation is the WV Turnpike over 150 miles away.  However the WVDOH owns the road and there is no requirement that the money taken in be spent on that highway's upkeep, it will just be ordinary income to the state and deposited in the state treasury, and the road will be maintained by regular DOH facilities (the Turnpike maintains its own seperate operation of pavers, snow plowers, etc).  I really do not see the road as revenue positive if it were in a traditional bonding situation anyway.

No word on what the WV toll will be (50 or 75 c would seem about right) or if WV will develop special signage (I would advocate for mirroring PA's deal, with a green square "Toll 43".

[hbelkins]

http://ee.dominionpost.com/Olive/ODE/DominionPost/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=RFBvc3QvMjAxMC8wNi8yNA..&pageno=MQ..&entity=QXIwMDEwMw..&view=ZW50aXR5

Opening delayed to an unnamed date in "Spring 2011".

WV and PA could not come to an agreement on the idea of having the southernmost toll in PA split between the two states.  WV will now put up its own toll booths one mile north of I-68.  Tolls will be collected "under contract" with the WVDOH by the WVEDPTA (AKA the Turnpike Commission) whose only other operation is the WV Turnpike over 150 miles away.  However the WVDOH owns the road and there is no requirement that the money taken in be spent on that highway's upkeep, it will just be ordinary income to the state and deposited in the state treasury, and the road will be maintained by regular DOH facilities (the Turnpike maintains its own seperate operation of pavers, snow plowers, etc).  I really do not see the road as revenue positive if it were in a traditional bonding situation anyway.

No word on what the WV toll will be (50 or 75 c would seem about right) or if WV will develop special signage (I would advocate for mirroring PA's deal, with a green square "Toll 43".

Heard about this elsewhere. Why was WV so gung-ho on tolling this road if the toll revenues aren't going to be used to maintain it? With no exits in WV, the road really serves no local purpose and is just a conduit for traffic to get to Pennsylvania, but WV's original intent was to build it as a free highway and connect it to PA's toll facility. Which seems silly to me; WV should have planned to toll it all along if this was the decision that they eventually were going to arrive at.

[SP Cook]

It makes sense to toll the road, as it serves no WV purpose.  It will be inconvient for motorists to have two tolls with 8 miles, a similar situation to the consecutive tolls in the various jurisdicitons at the Delaware Memorial Bridge, but we are talking about tiny traffic volumes.  I doubt a night shift toll worker would take in her salary in a shift.  However, it is correct that WV should have just set up a traditional toll authority, borrowed the money and gotten the road finished contemporanously with PA.

When the Turnpike tolls were (illegally) extended in 1989 for another 30 years, many politicians were told that a system similar to NY's of statewide "cross-pledged" toll roads.    This was the reason for renaming the Turnpike Commisions the "Economic Development (state already had and has a regular economic development office) Tourism (state already has a tourist authority) and Parkways (note the plural) Authority".  Of course the money was then spent on buying penny stocks and then on the loss making curio shop system.

Looking at a map, it would seem that toll funding could easily finish the 13 mile gap in US 35 and the unbuilt part of Corridor H.  Both could easily be fully limited access highways.

[Mr_Northside]

I just hope they're not going to be stupid enough to put up only booths and no "express lanes"....
It would be a shame for WV to look like a backwards redneck-run state by installing tolling facilities, IN 2010 (or maybe 2011) that, at best, would require slowing to 5 M.P.H.

I'm curious as to why some arrangement couldn't be found for this.  While the merits of "tolling" the WV portion can be debated, This booth does seem wasteful.  I agree with the post above, that a toll worker (assuming it's not totally automated) probably won't even cover their expenses in a night.

[vdeane]

Couldn't they just give the road to PA?  That would seem to be the most efficient solution, given that it serves no purpose to WV, is so small, and PA doesn't want to share toll revenue.

[froggie]

There would likely be legal issues with a road within one state being given to another.

[TheStranger]

There would likely be legal issues with a road within one state being given to another.

The closest thing I can think of to this is NYSDOT maintaining NY 17/I-86 where it meets up with US 220 (in Pennsylvania) and I-684 in that brief stretch through Connecticut.  Obviously, those two segments are shorter than the segment of the Mon-Fayette in question...

[froggie]

They are also both cases where the road begins in one state, dips into the second state, then shortly returns to the first state.  Plus I-684 lacks interchanges on its Connecticut dip.  Neither case exists with the Mon-Fayette.

[mightyace]

I'm curious as to why some arrangement couldn't be found for this.  While the merits of "tolling" the WV portion can be debated, This booth does seem wasteful.  I agree with the post above, that a toll worker (assuming it's not totally automated) probably won't even cover their expenses in a night.

Remember, one of the involved parties is the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.  They haven't been able to come to an accommodation with PennDOT in over 40 years over Breezewood.  Why should we expect that they can come to an agreement with an out of state agency?  

[SP Cook]

There would likely be legal issues with a road within one state being given to another.

Just north of Williamson, US 119 & 52 (Corridor G) dips into Kentucky from WV for two brief segments of a few hundred yards each.  The old road was on the WV side only.  The new road was buit by the WV contractor in the 1990s using 100% WV money (actually, of course, that means mostly federal money given to WV).  Kentucky right of way division purchased the property, with WV money, in the name of the Commonwealth, but did nothing else.  Repairs, upkeep and snow removal is done by WV DOH.  You do see the occasional KY cop on the road.

Getting away from highways, I can think of several airports that are owned by a core city, such as San Francisco, but which are located outside of the city.  Does not LA own its entire water system, which reached 100s of miles inland?  And the University of California, IIRC, owns a property used for research in New Mexico.

[froggie]

Not saying they're insurmountable.  Just saying that the legal issues would have to be addressed before such an agreement could be pursued.

[rickmastfan67]

I'm thinking the real reason that WV decided to build their own toll booths is because there are no toll booths @ Exit #2 in PA.  People would just get off there to avoid paying any toll to either state.

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.737167,-79.811447&spn=0.006039,0.013937&t=k&z=17

[PAHighways]

Remember, one of the involved parties is the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission.  They haven't been able to come to an accommodation with PennDOT in over 40 years over Breezewood.  Why should we expect that they can come to an agreement with an out of state agency?  

This has been covered ad nauseam.  Those ramps have about as good a chance of being built as I-99 being decommissioned.

[mightyace]

^^^

I wasn't trying to beat that dead horse.  It is simply the most glaring example of how the PTC doesn't play well with others.  (If they can't work well with their own state DOT, how can we expect them to work with an out of state agency.)

[hbelkins]

^^^

I wasn't trying to beat that dead horse.  It is simply the most glaring example of how the PTC doesn't play well with others.  (If they can't work well with their own state DOT, how can we expect them to work with an out of state agency.)

Is it the PTC that's being difficult, or do the local business interests exert undue influence?

To me, it's ridiculous to have a toll road commission in any state separate from the DOT. When Kentucky had toll roads, they were under control of the Transportation Cabinet.

As for Breezewood, it's not thriving like it once may have been. I spent two nights there a couple of weeks ago and there are several closed motels, restaurants, etc. Outside the section of US 30 that I-70 traffic has to use, there isn't much to the place.

I'd love to see a history of Breezewood ... when I-70 was built northward out of Maryland, why no direct connection was made to the turnpike at the time, etc. Is there a good one available online anywhere? Jeff K., do you have anything definitive?

[algorerhythms]

^^^

I wasn't trying to beat that dead horse.  It is simply the most glaring example of how the PTC doesn't play well with others.  (If they can't work well with their own state DOT, how can we expect them to work with an out of state agency.)

Is it the PTC that's being difficult, or do the local business interests exert undue influence?

To me, it's ridiculous to have a toll road commission in any state separate from the DOT. When Kentucky had toll roads, they were under control of the Transportation Cabinet.

As for Breezewood, it's not thriving like it once may have been. I spent two nights there a couple of weeks ago and there are several closed motels, restaurants, etc. Outside the section of US 30 that I-70 traffic has to use, there isn't much to the place.

I'd love to see a history of Breezewood ... when I-70 was built northward out of Maryland, why no direct connection was made to the turnpike at the time, etc. Is there a good one available online anywhere? Jeff K., do you have anything definitive?

There's a description of why no direct connection was made at the time at the bottom of this page. The gist of it is that I-70 was built with Federal funding and if that were used to build the interchange, the rules at the time would have required the PTC to stop collecting tolls when their bonds were retired.

[vdeane]

Why couldn't I-70 have been given an interchange at Breezewood as well as a direct connection?  That way, motorists would have had a choice, and a direct connection would still have been made.

What about all the direct connections with interstates in NY?  Surely the same policy was in effect here!

[PAHighways]

Why couldn't I-70 have been given an interchange at Breezewood as well as a direct connection?

Basically the business owners protested any ramp connection because they felt that revenue would dry up in proportion to traffic on 30 (yes, I know that is ridiculous and 80-85% of traffic using 70 does not stop at any establishment).

[Mr_Northside]

Is it the PTC that's being difficult, or do the local business interests exert undue influence?

The only way I could see this being an issue that is the fault of the PTC is if they couldn't agree on a "split" or perhaps a "collection fee".  Otherwise, you'd think the PTC would like the opportunity to make a little extra coin doing "work" for WV.  It could just be that they wanted too much $$$.  On the other hand, I could also see some in WV not wanting to "outsource" whatever jobs they think doing their own tolling would create.  Some politician can now tout at least a little "job creation".

(EDIT: I was assuming the question was in relation to the Mon-Fayette tolling business, not the Breezewood situation)