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Author Topic: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs  (Read 10084 times)

andytom

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Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« on: September 21, 2009, 02:52:10 AM »

In the last AASHTO/USRN meeting, CDOT applied for a got a change in the routing for US-85/87 through Colorado Springs.  The old route followed the I-25 BL through town then continued on surface steets down to Fountain about 10 miles south of CSpgs before reacquiring I-25.  The new route seems to differ based on whether you use the map or the new route log description in the change application.  The new route log entry shows US-85/87 getting off I-25 at the south end of the I-25 BL and using its old surface street route to Fountain.  The map shows US-85/87 getting off I-25 about 4 miles farther south at a location where there isn't even an interchange.

Does anyone know where the actual route will be?

--Andy
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 10:12:23 AM »

If only the USRN committee were as diligent as you are about checking the details of applications... 

You're exactly right: the new definition of US 85/87 has it staying on I-25 all the way through the Springs, until a point between interchanges 135 and 138, where traffic is expected to magically exit the freeway (even though there are no access ramps there) and continue on the old surface-street routing through Fountain.  I spoke with the guy at CDoT who submitted the application (William Johnson, I believe) and was told that the intention for the change application was not to have US 85 traffic use that routing (obviously), but rather to bring AASHTO's route definition up to speed with CDoT's.  You see, several years ago CDoT turned back several highways to the city and/or county, in exchange for bringing Powers Blvd into the state highway system (now SH 21).  Part of that route swap involved abandoning US 85 north of where it overpasses I-25.  That was a stupid place to cut it off, but the poor decision made way back then has forced CDoT to grapple with the consequences now.  Since there is no access at that point, I was told that exit 138 (Academy Blvd) would probably be signed as "TO US 85".

I also contacted Marty Vitale (AASHTO's secretary of the USRN) to point out the fact that they approved a routing that's impossible to follow, but didn't get a response.
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andytom

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 12:37:01 PM »

Thanks.  That's what I thought would probably happen.  I know that CDOT has a number of odd stubs and sections that aren't signed but continue to be held on the books as a section of highway (frontage roads along I-70 east of Denver held on as part of US-40, etc.) from the SLD's.

--Andy
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »

Thanks.  That's what I thought would probably happen.  I know that CDOT has a number of odd stubs and sections that aren't signed but continue to be held on the books as a section of highway (frontage roads along I-70 east of Denver held on as part of US-40, etc.) from the SLD's.

--Andy


Speaking of that, when we drove through Burlington, Colorado in 2004, they had U.S. 24 signage on the frontage road leading east from town. Is or was this one of those odd stubs?
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Re: Routing of US-24 in Burlington CO
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 11:42:54 PM »

Speaking of that, when we drove through Burlington, Colorado in 2004, they had U.S. 24 signage on the frontage road leading east from town. Is or was this one of those odd stubs?

Yeah, when you're heading east on US 24/Business I-70 through Burlington, the two routes split just before reaching interchange 438.  Business I-70 continues due east on Rose Av, ending at the interchange, but US 24 angles northeast, merging with Webster Av after about a half-mile.  Last time I was there (which was also about 2004), there were US 24 signs along this segment.  But according to CDoT, US 24 ends not far beyond the Webster intersection.  So officially US 24 doesn't exist between Burlington and the Kansas line (KDoT considers US 24 to run concurrently with I-70).
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brad2971

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 10:13:07 PM »

Since CDOT likes to do route swaps, it would be a good time to address this silly issue. My idea: Let El Paso County have US85-87 from that bridge to Exit 128, and let CDOT have that newly-widened Woodmen Road from Powers Blvd to US24 (with the eventual goal of owning Woodmen up to I-25). This way, CDOT can have a new connector road (Woodmen Rd from I-25 to US24) while having El Paso County/Colorado Springs pay for the upgrades. :nod:
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leifvanderwall

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 08:51:36 PM »

I know this is not a fictional roads topic, but I have no clue why the US 85-87 routing still exists. US 85 should end in Denver; US 87 should end in Clayton,NM. The US 87 in Montana should be Montana 19 & newly extended US 287 from Great Falls. I don't see the need for a US 85 stub in El Paso, TX either. I haven't been to Colorado in awhile, but I don't even think US 85 & 87 are signed with I-25 from Colorado Spgs to Denver. Our highway system needs to keep up with the times.
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tmthyvs

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 03:34:30 PM »

US 85 isn't concurrent with I-25 the entire way from Colorado Springs to Denver. It exits in Castle Rock and follows a routing along the railway through Littleton along Santa Fe Drive into Denver (a very important highway in the metro area--much of it an urban expressway) and then follows I-25 for a few miles to I-70; I-70 for a couple miles before going off onto its expressway alignment north  through Commerce City, Brighton, Fort Lupton, and Greeley. So at least keep it to Castle Rock.

As to US 87, what would you do with the section on the other side of Clayton NM?
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 04:41:09 PM »


As to US 87, what would you do with the section on the other side of Clayton NM?

that can be solely US-64 between Raton and Clayton.
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tmthyvs

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 11:47:10 AM »

Oh, of course...I completely forgot about US-64 there. Oops.
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Rover_0

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 05:14:45 PM »

I say, route US-85 down CO-86 to Franktown and CO-83 to the Springs, then resume its old route at the US-85/87 and CO-83 junction at the south end of town.  What do you guys think?
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US71

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 06:29:51 PM »



Yeah, when you're heading east on US 24/Business I-70 through Burlington, the two routes split just before reaching interchange 438.  Business I-70 continues due east on Rose Av, ending at the interchange, but US 24 angles northeast, merging with Webster Av after about a half-mile.  Last time I was there (which was also about 2004), there were US 24 signs along this segment.  But according to CDoT, US 24 ends not far beyond the Webster intersection.  So officially US 24 doesn't exist between Burlington and the Kansas line (KDoT considers US 24 to run concurrently with I-70).

The last signage I've seen is where Rose Ave meets Old 24. Beyond that, there are no signs until the trailblazer at Kanorado





WB, there is a sign at Fifth St, but that's the first one (or WAS in 2007)
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usends

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2009, 09:34:05 AM »

I say, route US-85 down CO-86 to Franktown and CO-83 to the Springs, then resume its old route at the US-85/87 and CO-83 junction at the south end of town.  What do you guys think?
Well, the first thing I think is that you're looking at an old map.  CO 83 no longer runs through the Springs - it now ends on the north side of the city, at its junction with CO 21 (Powers Blvd).  Since CDoT recently removed Academy Blvd from the state highway system, I doubt they'd be interested in putting it back in.  The second thing I think is: why?  What would be the benefit to introducing the US 85 designation to a corridor in which it has no historical presence?
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Rover_0

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »

What would be the benefit to introducing the US 85 designation to a corridor in which it has no historical presence?

The thing is that it would at least have its own corridor for a much more significant portion of its Colorado route.  Most the way through Colorado (and all of New Mexico), US-85 is hidden by I-25.  I find it to be a cop-out to for a state to duplex a US Route along a long portion of an Interstate in order to hide it, which Colorado often does with US-85 south of Denver and pretty much its entire section of US-87.  At least routing US-85 along CO-83 would in part avoid this "route saturation."

What about routing US-85 down CO-83 and CO-21 to what would then be only US-87?  US-87 could then take the Castle Rock part of US-85 and most of the Colorado Springs portion of US-85/87.  I agree with Leifvanderwall in that there needs to be some updating to these routes, and sending US-85 down CO-83 and CO-21 seems like a resonable way to start.

Not trying to make this a fictional highway thread, but you could perhaps send US-85 down US-285 through Santa Fe, then assume US-54's route from Encino, NM to El Paso, thus avoiding the absent route on I-25.  That eliminates the hidden US-85. I've also toyed with the idea to renumber US-191 as US-87, and renumber portions of current US-87 as something else (as the Colorado section is virtually non-existent).

By the way, has anyone contacted anyone at AASHTO about the US-24 stub?
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usends

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 10:51:09 AM »

Most the way through Colorado (and all of New Mexico), US-85 is hidden by I-25.  I find it to be a cop-out to for a state to duplex a US Route along a long portion of an Interstate in order to hide it... sending US-85 down CO-83 and CO-21 seems... resonable.

I asked "what would be the benefit", and reading between the lines of your reply, I think you're saying it would benefit you, because you have a philosophical issue with US routes that are concurrent with interstates.  So maybe I should've phrased it, "What would be the benefit to the general traveling public?"

The notion that DoTs multiplex US routes with interstates "in order to hide them" is completely delusional.  US 85-87 along the Front Range is a highly-traveled corridor that warranted an interstate, and in many places the freeway was built right on top of the original US route alignment.  It only made sense to route US 85-87 traffic along the freeway that was built to serve as an upgrade to the functionality of the original road.  Are you saying CDoT should have significantly redefined the routing of US 85-87 simply because an interstate now occupies the corridor?  If so, then I disagree with your notion of what's "reasonable".
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J N Winkler

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 11:09:50 AM »

It should also be noted that NMSHTD (as it then was) has worked very hard to eradicate all traces of US 85 from New Mexico.  Conceptually AASHTO considers US 85 to be concurrent with I-10 and I-25 all the way from the Texas state line north to the Colorado state line, but there is not a single US 85 sign anywhere in New Mexico, there is no entry for US 85 in the NMDOT route log, and all the surface routings loosely parallel to I-25 which used to carry the US 85 designation have been renumbered.  A substantial length of road of this type was actually given the NM 1 designation, which the entire highway in this corridor had in the 1910's and early 1920's before the advent of US route numbering.

I am firmly convinced that the only reason a book routing of US 85 continues to exist in NM is that TxDOT won't propose giving up its stub of US 85 in El Paso and nobody else has the standing to make them do it.
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agentsteel53

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2009, 11:27:31 AM »

I thought there was a US-85 shield left over somewhere buried on an old alignment near Las Cruces. 

do you know when NM first had their routes legislatively assigned?  They first started signing in 1927.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 11:29:03 AM by agentsteel53 »
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J N Winkler

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 01:08:56 PM »

NM had numbered state highways from statehood in 1912.  AFAIK, they were not explicitly signed until 1927 when the original version of the Za marker was developed to complement the US route marker, but it is possible some early (non-standardized) signs referenced state routes by number.  I am not aware that numbers were assigned legislatively--I think the authority to number highways was delegated to the Highway Commission.

NM 1 was basically the El Camino Real corridor from Texas to Colorado, while NM 2 followed what is now US 285.  As a generalization, the lower the route number in the 1912 plan, the longer the highway.  But this regularity was destroyed in 1927 when the US routes supplanted state highway designations on most of the important routes.  NM 1 (near Socorro) and NM 2 (south of Roswell) now exist in their 1912 corridors but generally as relocated routes left in the state highway system.

The biennial report of the State Engineer (1914 edition, I think) has a map of the numbered state highways as its frontispiece.
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 05:34:27 PM »

Hmm...let's continue the debate regarding U.S. routes and their corouting with Interstates in this thread. usends, I'd be especially interested in having you post in that thread as you seem to have some opinions opposite to those held by most roadgeeks.
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 07:37:46 PM »

quote author=tmthyvs link=topic=1681.msg38589#msg38589 date=1254080070]

, what would you do with the section on the other side of Clayton NM?
As to US 87, what would you do with the section on the other side of Clayton NM?
that can be solely US-64 between Raton and Clayton.



If you split US 87 in half, agentsteel53 will have to change his avatar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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agentsteel53

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 08:54:27 PM »


If you split US 87 in half, agentsteel53 will have to change his avatar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and if you keep resurrecting long-dead posts with inane comments, I will have to change your membership status.
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 06:03:48 PM »

It should also be noted that NMSHTD (as it then was) has worked very hard to eradicate all traces of US 85 from New Mexico.  Conceptually AASHTO considers US 85 to be concurrent with I-10 and I-25 all the way from the Texas state line north to the Colorado state line

Apologies for the bump, but this is rather less inane than Mr. Kid's comment. AASHTO in their 1989 (latest) log actually considers US 85 to get off on the old alignment through Las Vegas and Bernalillo. It also passes through downtown Walsenburg, CO (as does US 87).

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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2011, 12:53:43 AM »

This is news to me; thanks for the correction.

My observation that NMSHTD deliberately tried to eliminate US 85 (at least as a signed route in New Mexico) is based on a typewritten list of route number changes which were agreed after the agency adopted a policy of not allowing state route concurrencies in the mid-1980's.  One of the tabulated changes transferred Old US 85 near Socorro to NM 1 (and, if memory serves, reviving that previously extinct designation in its original corridor).  There were one or two other changes (including, I think, one in the Mesilla Valley) which similarly suppressed US 85 by transferring former US 85 mileage to a new state route designation.

It would not surprise me if AASHTO's adopted off-Interstate routings of US 85 in Las Vegas and Bernalillo were signed, but only as NM state highways.
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2011, 12:25:14 PM »

you are correct - NM-1 is the old designation for what became the US-85/I-25 corridor.  Also, Colorado 1 was the I-25/US-87 corridor in that state. 
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Re: Route change for US-85/87 in Colorado Springs
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2011, 12:38:36 PM »

It should also be noted that NMSHTD (as it then was) has worked very hard to eradicate all traces of US 85 from New Mexico.  Conceptually AASHTO considers US 85 to be concurrent with I-10 and I-25 all the way from the Texas state line north to the Colorado state line

AASHTO in their 1989 (latest) log actually considers US 85 to get off on the old alignment through Las Vegas and Bernalillo. It also passes through downtown Walsenburg, CO (as does US 87).

As we all know, there are dozens (if not hundreds) of places where state highway departments have implemented routings that are different than what's shown in AASHTO's log.  So, to put it bluntly: is there any organization that still gives a rip what's in AASHTO's log?  I know in recent years AASHTO has stated its intent to update the 20+ year-old log, but has there been any progress on this?  My impression is that the state highway depts. don't seem to think it's even worth the time and effort to help AASTHO get up to speed.
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