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Author Topic: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways  (Read 60424 times)

Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2016, 08:59:14 PM »

I'm a bit confused... Didn't CA-65 always end at CA-180 west of Kings Canyon? Every historic map I've got shows that, until CA-65 was eventually replaced by CA-69 and then CA-245.

Yes but it looks like that terminus was way more south, south west.  Basically looks like CA 180 took one hell of a northern swing along what is now CA 245 north from Dunlap Road.  I suppose it makes sense since the modern 180 is obviously a modern mountain grade cut while it's obvious Dunlap Road is way, way, way older.  Basically that maps shows CA 180 on this alignment in 1948:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Kings+Canyon+Mobile+Home+Park,+35671+East+Kings+Canyon+Road,+Dunlap,+CA+93621/CA-180,+Miramonte,+CA+93641/@36.7024428,-119.0860087,13z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x80950ec5c2d01acd:0x6498936324d9bf75!2m2!1d-119.1660181!2d36.7548316!3m4!1m2!1d-119.1255889!2d36.7393948!3s0x80950c32bcb68d2f:0x56e9c69d6264fbd9!3m4!1m2!1d-119.0638444!2d36.6962849!3s0x809512bf459b534f:0x4961c59a71b50a5e!1m5!1m1!1s0x8094559309e7542f:0xa766d70bd54ac869!2m2!1d-119.0065136!2d36.7227271!3e0?hl=en

This is where I took that picture in my previous post today:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6832243,-119.0224943,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5pOiosi4zAeaQCt-e59xOA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D5pOiosi4zAeaQCt-e59xOA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D53.561916%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Basically what I'm seeing on that 1948 map is that CA 180 would have come east from Fresno on Dunlap Road which is on the right.  Badger Road/CA 245 would have been carrying CA 65 and apparently ended right there at CA 180? 

Do you happen have some of those maps handy for a scan?  Anything around Badger from the 1940s onward ought to clear up what happened to the CA 180 alignment. 

Incidentally it's pretty crazy to think that CA 180 was once planned to use Onion Valley Road to reach US 395.  That would have been one hell of a crazy feat of engineering to get that road over the mountains east of Cedar Grove....at least that's what cahighways had.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 09:21:50 PM by Max Rockatansky »
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Quillz

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2016, 12:11:42 AM »

The earliest map I've got (which isn't really a map at all) was the original 1934 highway plan, which shows CA-180 using a "to be determined" route across the Sierra to meet then CA-7 in Independence. I didn't know anything had actually been planned, though. Onion Valley Road, you say? Sounds interesting.

Then, as now, the only route that I think ever has any real shot of ever crossing the Sierra is CA-190, and even then, I doubt it will ever happen.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2016, 12:23:33 AM »

Yeah that's reflective of everything I've seen that it never got anywhere but the planning stages and probably a good thing considering how nasty that terrain really is.  Funny to think that there was once such grand plans for 180 in both directions that really never came to be.  I just didn't expect a HUGE realignment like that east of Fresno...but then again I had no idea that was a serious finished state route even in the 40s.  I suppose it makes sense given how much money the Park Service dumped into the Generals Highway by 1935.

Yeah there is way too much red tape with legislative and environmental stuff that make it impossible now.  Back in those pre-EPA act days it was a lot easier to get things done in general...BUT it's not to say you wouldn't have the Park Service or some other body come out of nowhere with Congressional action.  Basically it looks like Sequoia National Park from everything I ever read was created to stop the loggers...which I actually hit on the Colony Mill and Mineral King Road threads. 
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2016, 08:18:50 AM »

Apparently 180 had made it's jump from the Dunlap Road alignment to the current one to Kings Canyon sometime between 1948 and 1956:

http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1956/fresno-bak-sierras.html
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myosh_tino

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2016, 01:44:28 PM »

Apparently 180 had made it's jump from the Dunlap Road alignment to the current one to Kings Canyon sometime between 1948 and 1956:

http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1956/fresno-bak-sierras.html

Any idea what the numbers in the box mean?

For example, US 466 between Bakersfield and Barstow, "58" inside of a box appears near Keane and Boron.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2016, 01:48:13 PM »

Apparently 180 had made it's jump from the Dunlap Road alignment to the current one to Kings Canyon sometime between 1948 and 1956:

http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1956/fresno-bak-sierras.html

Any idea what the numbers in the box mean?

For example, US 466 between Bakersfield and Barstow, "58" inside of a box appears near Keane and Boron.

Pretty sure that's the LRN since its pre-64.
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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2016, 02:01:45 PM »

Apparently 180 had made it's jump from the Dunlap Road alignment to the current one to Kings Canyon sometime between 1948 and 1956:

http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1956/fresno-bak-sierras.html

Any idea what the numbers in the box mean?

For example, US 466 between Bakersfield and Barstow, "58" inside of a box appears near Keane and Boron.

Pretty sure that's the LRN since its pre-64.

Looks like you're right.

My initial thought was they were some sort of precursor to the Great Renumbering because the segment of US 466 I referred to in my post did become CA-58 but that didn't hold true with many of the other routes on that map.  Thanks!
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sparker

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2016, 04:17:03 PM »

CA 58 did indeed take over US 466 from Bakersfield to Barstow, and former SSR 178 west from Bakersfield to US 101 at Santa Margarita.  That entire route was LRN 58.  The renumbering "gurus", such as they were, got lazy on this one!  BTW, US 66 from Barstow to the AZ line east of Needles was also part of LRN 58; it was one of the few almost-fully "cross state" pre-'64 legislative routes;  another was LRN 64, which followed SSR 74 (today's CA 74) from San Juan Capistrano to SSR 111 (LRN 187) near La Quinta, then "piggybacked" east on 111 (originally cosigned with 74) to US 60/70/99 (LRN 26) at Indio.  LRN 26 followed US 99 at the Dillon Road split between Indio and Coachella, while US 60/70 east from there via Chiriaco Summit to the AZ line at Blythe was the continuation of LRN 64.  Convoluted route, but it did come within 5 miles of the ocean at its west end at US 101 (now I-5, of course).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:06:37 PM by sparker »
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coatimundi

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2016, 04:32:08 PM »

another was LRN 64, which followed SSR 74 (today's CA 74) from San Juan Capistrano to SSR 111 (LRN 187) near La Quinta, then "piggybacked" east on 111 (originally cosigned with 74) to US 60/70/99 (LRN 26) at Indio

When did SR 74 get "depiggyed" from 111? I could be totally wrong, but I seem to remember seeing it multiplexed on maps.
It makes sense to do that too, since it would allow the route to appear in Indio and allow drivers to follow it when they would otherwise have to know to first take 111.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2016, 09:37:28 PM »

Apparently 180 had made it's jump from the Dunlap Road alignment to the current one to Kings Canyon sometime between 1948 and 1956:

http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1956/fresno-bak-sierras.html

Any idea what the numbers in the box mean?

For example, US 466 between Bakersfield and Barstow, "58" inside of a box appears near Keane and Boron.

Pretty sure that's the LRN since its pre-64.

Looks like you're right.

My initial thought was they were some sort of precursor to the Great Renumbering because the segment of US 466 I referred to in my post did become CA-58 but that didn't hold true with many of the other routes on that map.  Thanks!

Yeah kind of strange that there never was a LRN renumbering to a 466 but then again I think that might be what the whole purpose of CA 46 replacing the segment of US 466 that was west of US 99.  Still it's pretty cool to see the LRNs posted along side the signed route numbers.

With all that in mind that 1956 actually solved a couple mystery with the pre-expressway alignment of LRN 10/CA 198 through Kings County:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Avenal+Cutoff+Rd,+Lemoore,+CA+93245/9895+7th+Avenue,+Hanford,+CA+93230/@36.3005843,-119.7637981,13z/data=!4m49!4m48!1m40!1m1!1s0x8094a52566b58659:0x6600b8cb41baa0d3!2m2!1d-119.8937353!2d36.2297902!3m4!1m2!1d-119.8187379!2d36.255006!3s0x8094b8dd1c554767:0xf21397d871435c1!3m4!1m2!1d-119.8005365!2d36.3133947!3s0x8094bf70a8cc0de7:0x8433c96ca473a110!3m4!1m2!1d-119.7150125!2d36.3145512!3s0x8094c146511c79ed:0x5ea479d9c39b2a47!3m4!1m2!1d-119.6841781!2d36.328042!3s0x8094c3e884220cf3:0x898be80aa2af38c3!3m4!1m2!1d-119.658193!2d36.3269358!3s0x8094c384dc2b53ab:0xceef918cf7c7b00e!3m4!1m2!1d-119.6412088!2d36.3273175!3s0x8094c37c7bc35b11:0xb8ada8e184661533!3m4!1m2!1d-119.634578!2d36.3280409!3s0x8094c363a3b6902b:0xe4e7051525f13f51!1m5!1m1!1s0x8094db5d3b83b0bd:0x3d8dd14e3a525b2b!2m2!1d-119.5823395!2d36.3297541!3e0?hl=en

Basically it looks like the pre-expressway 198 starts at exit 73 heading eastbound:
-  There appears to be an abandoned stub of Jackson/Old CA 198 just east of the exit 73 ramp.
-  According to the 1956 map it looks like Old CA 198 would have multiplexed CA 41 along the current expressway and 19 1/2 Avenue in Lemoore.
-  Old CA 198 cut east along Hanford-Armona Road to Armona.
-  Old CA 198 appeared to take a left turn on Front Street then north on 14th Avenue. 
-  CA 198 would have swung east on Lacey Blvd towards Hanford.
-  In Hanford CA 198 would have taken what appears to Garner Avenue south to 7th Street east through downtown.
-  Leaving downtown CA 198 appears to rejoin the eastern segment of Lacey which dead ends at 7th Avenue to today but would have continued to Tulare County prior to the expressway being built.  It seems that the west bound lanes of the expressway in Kings County were CA 198/Lacey Blvd.

Now as for Tulare County my theory is that 198 ran on Mineral King Avenue and was possibly called as such all the way to Mineral King Road out in Three Rivers. 

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Quillz

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2016, 11:15:27 PM »

Quote
Yeah kind of strange that there never was a LRN renumbering to a 466 but then again I think that might be what the whole purpose of CA 46 replacing the segment of US 466 that was west of US 99.  Still it's pretty cool to see the LRNs posted along side the signed route numbers.
Not only this, but the older Caltrans maps also used to show the mileage between cities, junctions, etc. I was looking at the 2005 Caltrans map (the latest I could find) and this information wasn't there anymore. Compare this to, say the 1963 Caltrans map (last before the renumbering), it shows you LRN, mileage between points, etc. Very useful (albeit may more information than the typical motorist would have needed).
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sparker

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2016, 01:25:02 PM »

Back during Division of Highways days, especially during the Pat Brown administration, a new California state highway map was published every two years; this was a byproduct of the introduction of the California Freeway & Expressway system in 1959.  The cartography was done in-house; all LRN's and signed highways: SSR, US, Interstate -- were shown with their status:  completed routes with solid lines delineated by type, adopted routes with dashed lines composed of square indicators, and unadopted corridor concepts shown by dotted lines using circular indicators.  LRN's were shown as numbers in squares next to the road, while the appropriate symbols for signed routes were indicated as well.  All done in strictly black-and-white.  The last of these was published in 1965; this addressed the renumbering effort of the previous year.  After that, the Division went to less-detailed color maps based on a Gousha database (and using Gousha symbology!); this corresponded with the downgrading of California Highways & Public Works from a technically informative publication to a PR-oriented bi-monthly magazine (similar in style to the Auto Club's "Westways" mag!).  Of course, CH & PW ceased publication in the spring of 1967 as part of budget-cutting on the part of the incoming Reagan gubernatorial administration.  The color maps continued publication -- although not on any regular schedule -- after that. 

The Division, up until 1967, used to distribute these maps at their yearly display at the California State Fair in Sacramento; if they ran out, they would entertain orders for the maps and mail them out later.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 01:27:57 PM by sparker »
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sparker

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2016, 02:53:52 PM »

Getting back to even more obscure CA state highways, there's always CA 172, tucked up in the mountains south of Lassen Park.  Interesting history -- this about 12-mile loop was the original LRN 29, the primary route east of Red Bluff to Susanville and then on to Reno, NV, and, before about 1934, was signed as SSR 36.  That section, between Mineral and Morgan Summit, was routed through a narrow valley -- one that just happened to feature numerous lodges and spas built to take advantages of the numerous hot springs in that volcanic area.  It zig-zagged back and forth across the valley, serving the various facilities -- but because of the constricted space in the valley, the roadway was never more than 18 feet wide -- and was never striped for 2 lanes.  In 1934 the route was bypassed by LRN 86, which was laid out in a large S-curve from Mineral (the present west junction of 36 & 172) to LRN 83 (SSR 89) south of the southern entrance to Lassen Park; while not much of a saving in total mileage, it was a more modern 2-lane facility that not only allowed faster speeds but also cut about 13 miles off the distance between Red Bluff and Lassen Park.  SSR 36 was rerouted over LRN 86 when it was completed, leaving the LRN 29 loop unsigned until the '64 renumbering, when it was signed as CA 172. 

Back about 30 years ago one of my many cousins in the Sacramento area planned a large family reunion and selected the hot-springs resort in Mineral as the location.  My then-wife and I drove up there, using CA 32 up the hill from Chico.  Once up the hill, I decided to use CA 172 to get to Mineral (just to clinch it, although I told my wife it would probably be more scenic!).  It was still one lane -- actually narrowing to about 13-14 feet in some sections -- and would have been fine except for one thing -- some event was happening in Mill Creek, and there were hundreds of cars and trucks backed up on 172 trying to get into a small dirt access road.  It took us nearly an hour to go the 12 miles to Mineral (my wife wasn't terribly happy about that; the phrase "scenic, my ass!" pretty much said it all).  Overall, not one of the better road trips in memory.  My overall assessment of 172 was that it was a unique (any one-lane state highway fits that description) short route, but one that certainly was of little use as a through facility.  I understand decommissioning of 172 has been under discussion for several years now, but the plug hasn't been pulled as of yet (probably due to objections by the several property owners along the highway who want to make sure it gets plowed in winter; it's at about 5700-6000 foot altitude).     
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coatimundi

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2016, 04:03:41 PM »

Interesting history. I knew there was a reason behind 172, and I'll have to try it when I finally get up there. From the map, it's hard to eyeball which is longer, but I guess it's better to trust the more-established route.
It's interesting that GSV tried to cover the route, but had to stop because they went up there in the winter and hit an unplowed section. You'd think they'd plan it a little better.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3214479,-121.5313396,3a,75y,278.27h,75.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s87FaNQH6d10vJuDb0wq11Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2016, 10:03:50 PM »

I like this view from the west terminus the same year.  :-D

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3465714,-121.5946764,3a,75y,90h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjm-JipNOJ78LYqwPpuLMmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The last time I drove 172 was in 2014 back when I was coming south through Lassen on 89.  I thought that it would be worth the trip given the short distance and detour...didn't think much of it though until now, had no idea that it was part of 36....but it makes sense given how often those mountain roads got realigned.  Anyways you can see the old alignment on this 1932 map:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239597~5511898:Map-Showing-State-Highway-System--C?sort=Date&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=9&trs=86

Of course the modern alignment of 36 pops up in 1934 as state previously:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239594~5511896:Road-Map-of-the-State-of-California?sort=Date&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=10&trs=86

Of course for some reasons the old maps don't show the SSRs until 1938:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239588~5511892:Road-Map-of-the-State-of-California?sort=Date&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=14&trs=86

Weird thing is on the 1936 map that entire section near Morgan is showed paved, then in 1938 it is showed just oiled/gravel instead...weird. 

And yes since NE2 posted the link to this site I've literally browsed over every map...at least up until the late 1970s.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 10:06:59 PM by Max Rockatansky »
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sparker

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2016, 05:09:01 AM »

Moving on -- or at least back down CA 32 into the valley -- an interesting (semi-) little route that not too many non-locals seem to take is CA 45, along the Sacramento River between I-5 and CA 99.  The delta highways south of Sacramento notwithstanding, CA 45 is the closest thing the state has to a Deep South-style river-running highway; the towns along its path, from Knights Landing up through Colusa and on to Hamilton City, seem more like towns I've encountered in Louisiana and Mississippi than other CA locales.  I've found that if traveled in the heat of the summer, one can almost imagine you're on MS 1 or US 65 near Vicksburg! 

As it turns out, most of the exterior scenes for the 1967 film "In The Heat Of The Night" were actually filmed in and around Colusa (although the famous chase on the bridge was filmed on the US 49 crossing of the Mississippi River at Helena, AR).  I first went through Colusa a couple of years later; there was an amazing taco stand on 45 just north of downtown, right at the point where the road (NB) turned a block or two east so as to sit atop the Sacramento River levee.  Not there anymore (that was 47 years ago; the last time I got food there was 1982!), but memorable nevertheless.  Certainly fits the description of "sleepy little town".  South of Colusa, CA 45 mostly stays off the levee, zig-zagging along property lines south to its southern Knights Landing terminus at CA 113.  If you hang around Knights Landing for any time, be prepared to discuss hunting & fishing -- it's one of the main bird-hunting centers in the Sacramento Valley; the area between the Sacramento and Feather rivers is full of duck, goose, and pheasant blinds.  My cousin-in-law, an avid pheasant hunter (and part of a multi-generational string of Caltrans employees; his dad worked for the Division of Highways right after WW II, and his son is a PE in the bridge department at Sacramento HQ) would be out in the area pretty much every weekend during hunting season (pheasant is OK eating, as long as you don't mind picking out bird shot from your breast or wing!).  To us "city folks", CA 45 is a "whole 'nuther world"!   
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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2016, 08:30:01 PM »

Hey, just wanted to say that today I clinched the entire CA-245 for the first time! Spent the day in Sequoia Nat'l Park, entered from the south and took the Generals' Highway all the way to the north end, so I figured I'd take 245 back down (I'm staying in Porterville).

Pretty scenic route, but very twisty, especially near the northern terminus. But the views are worth it. Also seems to be a pretty popular biking route, as I was thrice passed by a biking gang. The southern half of the route is pretty boring, though. But I found yet another traffic circle that Caltrans built, in Woodland, at the 216/245 junction.
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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #117 on: September 10, 2016, 08:51:34 PM »

And while this isn't directly related, something odd occured to me. When leaving Kings Canyon, I noticed the toll booths are directly on CA-180. In other words, you have to pay a toll to continue eastward on CA-180 to reach Kings Canyon (this is likely done because the Generals' Highway is within the nat'l park boundaries). Anyway, my point is... Shouldn't CA-180 technically be ending at the toll booth? I thought Caltrans didn't maintain roads within national parks? What's interesting is CA-198 officially ends at the Sequoia Nat'l Park's southern entrance (although a lot of maps, like Google, show the Generals' Highway being a part of 198). So why is 180 fully signed within the park boundaries? It would technically be a toll road, like Tioga Pass.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2016, 09:24:13 PM »

And while this isn't directly related, something odd occured to me. When leaving Kings Canyon, I noticed the toll booths are directly on CA-180. In other words, you have to pay a toll to continue eastward on CA-180 to reach Kings Canyon (this is likely done because the Generals' Highway is within the nat'l park boundaries). Anyway, my point is... Shouldn't CA-180 technically be ending at the toll booth? I thought Caltrans didn't maintain roads within national parks? What's interesting is CA-198 officially ends at the Sequoia Nat'l Park's southern entrance (although a lot of maps, like Google, show the Generals' Highway being a part of 198). So why is 180 fully signed within the park boundaries? It would technically be a toll road, like Tioga Pass.

Ponderism I touched on in my thread as well.  What I noticed on the park maps was that they omit CA 180 within the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park.  So with that in mind....I'm not sure?  Like you said the road is fully signed in Grant Grove and CA 198 is the one with "TO" indicator markers.  Actually if you want check out my Road Report Thread...I took a crap ton of pictures with CA 180 and the TO CA 198 signage.
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sdmichael

Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2016, 10:06:47 PM »

And while this isn't directly related, something odd occured to me. When leaving Kings Canyon, I noticed the toll booths are directly on CA-180. In other words, you have to pay a toll to continue eastward on CA-180 to reach Kings Canyon (this is likely done because the Generals' Highway is within the nat'l park boundaries). Anyway, my point is... Shouldn't CA-180 technically be ending at the toll booth? I thought Caltrans didn't maintain roads within national parks? What's interesting is CA-198 officially ends at the Sequoia Nat'l Park's southern entrance (although a lot of maps, like Google, show the Generals' Highway being a part of 198). So why is 180 fully signed within the park boundaries? It would technically be a toll road, like Tioga Pass.

Ponderism I touched on in my thread as well.  What I noticed on the park maps was that they omit CA 180 within the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park.  So with that in mind....I'm not sure?  Like you said the road is fully signed in Grant Grove and CA 198 is the one with "TO" indicator markers.  Actually if you want check out my Road Report Thread...I took a crap ton of pictures with CA 180 and the TO CA 198 signage.

According to the Caltrans TASAS from 2001, Route 180 stops at the western park boundary and begins again at the "northern" park boundary. Route 180 was also a State Highway before the expansion of Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Park. At the time of its establishment, it was only "General Grant Grove National Park". Similar to Hwy 190, which is also a State Highway in a National Park (previously a National Monument since 1933).
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2016, 10:42:42 PM »

And while this isn't directly related, something odd occured to me. When leaving Kings Canyon, I noticed the toll booths are directly on CA-180. In other words, you have to pay a toll to continue eastward on CA-180 to reach Kings Canyon (this is likely done because the Generals' Highway is within the nat'l park boundaries). Anyway, my point is... Shouldn't CA-180 technically be ending at the toll booth? I thought Caltrans didn't maintain roads within national parks? What's interesting is CA-198 officially ends at the Sequoia Nat'l Park's southern entrance (although a lot of maps, like Google, show the Generals' Highway being a part of 198). So why is 180 fully signed within the park boundaries? It would technically be a toll road, like Tioga Pass.

Ponderism I touched on in my thread as well.  What I noticed on the park maps was that they omit CA 180 within the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park.  So with that in mind....I'm not sure?  Like you said the road is fully signed in Grant Grove and CA 198 is the one with "TO" indicator markers.  Actually if you want check out my Road Report Thread...I took a crap ton of pictures with CA 180 and the TO CA 198 signage.

According to the Caltrans TASAS from 2001, Route 180 stops at the western park boundary and begins again at the "northern" park boundary. Route 180 was also a State Highway before the expansion of Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Park. At the time of its establishment, it was only "General Grant Grove National Park". Similar to Hwy 190, which is also a State Highway in a National Park (previously a National Monument since 1933).

So....with that logic why not sign CA 41, CA 120, CA 89, and CA 198 through their respective National Parks?  Not that I really care who maintains the route...it's just interesting to see that CA 180 and 190 are signed despite the routes technically not existing.
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Quillz

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #121 on: September 10, 2016, 11:04:28 PM »

And while this isn't directly related, something odd occured to me. When leaving Kings Canyon, I noticed the toll booths are directly on CA-180. In other words, you have to pay a toll to continue eastward on CA-180 to reach Kings Canyon (this is likely done because the Generals' Highway is within the nat'l park boundaries). Anyway, my point is... Shouldn't CA-180 technically be ending at the toll booth? I thought Caltrans didn't maintain roads within national parks? What's interesting is CA-198 officially ends at the Sequoia Nat'l Park's southern entrance (although a lot of maps, like Google, show the Generals' Highway being a part of 198). So why is 180 fully signed within the park boundaries? It would technically be a toll road, like Tioga Pass.

Ponderism I touched on in my thread as well.  What I noticed on the park maps was that they omit CA 180 within the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park.  So with that in mind....I'm not sure?  Like you said the road is fully signed in Grant Grove and CA 198 is the one with "TO" indicator markers.  Actually if you want check out my Road Report Thread...I took a crap ton of pictures with CA 180 and the TO CA 198 signage.

According to the Caltrans TASAS from 2001, Route 180 stops at the western park boundary and begins again at the "northern" park boundary. Route 180 was also a State Highway before the expansion of Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Park. At the time of its establishment, it was only "General Grant Grove National Park". Similar to Hwy 190, which is also a State Highway in a National Park (previously a National Monument since 1933).

So....with that logic why not sign CA 41, CA 120, CA 89, and CA 198 through their respective National Parks?  Not that I really care who maintains the route...it's just interesting to see that CA 180 and 190 are signed despite the routes technically not existing.
Going by that original '34 map that I posted before, it appears that both 41 and 140 were intended to be signed within Yosemite Valley, and ultimately merge into one another. It's strange how many mapping services, such as Google Maps, are convinced that 198 runs through Sequoia. Even Caltrans seems a bit confused. Today in Three Rivers, saw an "END" banner for 198. And then a few miles later, there was an "EAST" banner.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #122 on: September 10, 2016, 11:07:58 PM »

On that old circa 1930s bridge correct?  What always threw me off with that sign assembly is that it has a "TRUCK ROUTE" sign with it.  It makes it almost kinda look like CA 198 continues but the truck route ends...  I'm assuming the "end truck route" is accurate since the Generals Highway prohibits vehicles 22 feet or longer.
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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #123 on: September 10, 2016, 11:13:13 PM »

What it got me thinking about was how much I dislike routes that end at arbitrary points, like county lines. I think routes should always end at a physical, tangible point. For 198, it *should* end at the 180 via the Generals' Highway, as alluded to by Google Maps and the like. Navigational aid should always trump legislative definitions. And I'm not a particular fan of "TO" banners, either.

Something like the 245 is a good example. The physical road continues south of the southern terminus, but at least it ends at the 198, a physical location. If 245 merely ended at some arbitrary point like the 59, it would be very confusing for motorists. (On a related note, CA-203 ends this way, with an "END" banner seemingly at the Madera county line, although almost all maps show it continuing westward to the Devils Postpile.)
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways
« Reply #124 on: September 10, 2016, 11:19:50 PM »

What it got me thinking about was how much I dislike routes that end at arbitrary points, like county lines. I think routes should always end at a physical, tangible point. For 198, it *should* end at the 180 via the Generals' Highway, as alluded to by Google Maps and the like. Navigational aid should always trump legislative definitions. And I'm not a particular fan of "TO" banners, either.

Something like the 245 is a good example. The physical road continues south of the southern terminus, but at least it ends at the 198, a physical location. If 245 merely ended at some arbitrary point like the 59, it would be very confusing for motorists. (On a related note, CA-203 ends this way, with an "END" banner seemingly at the Madera county line, although almost all maps show it continuing westward to the Devils Postpile.)

203 I would be okay if it ended at Minerat Summit...the literal end of the road.  Actually I think we discussed Sherman Pass previously and CA 190.  This is what I came up with today after re-driving the route over Sherman:

"Now regarding the issue of CA 190 which we all discussed awhile back in another thread...yes this route is maintained to a very similar level of a California State Highway.  The only part that would probably need a substantial upgrade is J41/Nine Mile in Tulare County...but even then it's only Ebbets Pass, CA 146, and CA 236 levels of bad maintenance.  I'm not saying Caltrans ought to pick up maintenance...but what I am saying is that maybe it's time to abandon Olancha Pass for good to connect the two segments.  Just because it wouldn't be a California State Highway doesn't mean that route continuity couldn't be maintained.  My idea is as follows:

1.  From CA 99 use the current western CA 190 to Camp Nelson.
2.  From Camp Nelson resign M90 as M190 and use actual signs.
3.  Co-sign M190 along with M50 to Johnsondale.
4.  Cut M99 back to Sherman Pass Road and have it re-signed as M190.
5.  Have Sherman Pass Road signed as FR 190.
6.  Have J41 re-signed as J190 to US 395.
7.  Co-sign CA 190 alongside US 395 to eastern CA 190.  Legislatively this would be US 395 of course.

Now I know that will never happen but it would be nice to have some route continuity and a completed Route 190"

Way I see it why not try to strive for maximum route continuity regardless of who is actually maintaining the route?  Some classic examples that already really exist are Road 145 at the eastern Terminus of CA 145 and of course J59 at the end of CA 59.
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