AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?  (Read 7362 times)

ACSCmapcollector

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 366
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 10:13:01 PM
What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« on: July 12, 2016, 08:40:50 PM »

What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?

What ever happened to the planning of splitting Interstate 5 into Interstate 5W and (&) 5E?  Is it the AASHTO decision to have Interstate 505 and Interstate 580 to replace that, or not? 

Scott C. Presnal
Morro Bay, CA
Logged

cahwyguy

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 134
  • California Highway Guy

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northridge, CA
  • Last Login: March 24, 2017, 01:36:32 PM
    • California Highways
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 08:51:40 PM »

As always, I do suggest you consult my pages first:

Quote
Originally, there was also an I-5W. This routing dates back to the original definition of I-5 in 1947. At that time, I-5 was defined to run along the present-day Route 99 routing from N of Los Angeles to Sacramento. I-5W was defined to run along a routing that corresponds to present-day Route 120, I-205, I-580, I-80, and I-505. US 50 was multiplexed on the I-580 section. The route was resigned to the present-day route numbers in 1964 as part of the regularization of state and legislative route numbers. Note that the CalTrans history shows that I-505 and I-580 were approved as interstate the same time as I-5 in 1947, but that I-205 wasn't defined until 1957, when the West Tracy bypass was constructed. However, it appears the three-digit routes were not signed until 1965. Perhaps this was done to avoid confusing the travelling public, as the interstate signage was new (and before 1965, coexisted with the pre-1964 route signage). According to Calvin Sampang, one issue of California Highways and Public Works has a picture showing an I-5W shield on a segment of present-day I-580.

A proposal unearthed by Richard Moeur from the AASHTO files indicates that, at least in 1957 and 1958, there was at least a proposal for an I-5E. These proposal had I-5 running along the traditional alignment (Route 99 in 1957; "Westerly Alignment" in 1958) until either Modesto (1957) or Tracy (1958). The route then split, with I-5W going off as described above, and I-5E continuing along present Route 99 (1957)/I-5 (1958) into Sacramento. Evidently, AASHTO liked the routings, but didn't like I-5E, because that was never signed.

 

If you think about it, the suffixed routes could not survive the great renumbering, due to the way legislative routes were defined. This is why in 1964 they become 505 and 580.

As for the AASHTO decision, again, the information is on my pages from the history of the interstates in California, produced by Caltrans: http://www.cahighways.org/itypes.html

Routes submitted June 27, 1945
I-51:     Mexican border to Oregon state line (via Route 99)
Westside Freeway Relocation: May 1957

14-Aug-1957    I-5, I-5E Tentatively Approved
08-Nov-1957    Proposed as I-11
07-Aug-1958    Back to I-5
10-Nov-1958    Approved as I-5, I-5E (Sacramento)

1 Caltrans documents show this as being approved in 1947, although later documents the number having been approved as of October 1956. In a letter dated November 8, 1957, G.T. McCoy of the Department of Highways recommended that I-5 become I-11, to allow assignment of I-3 and I-5 to the Bay Area (for the San Francisco Bay circumferential routes, which later became I-280 and I-680). However, by August 1958, the Department of Highways had gone back to recommending I-5. Other letters objected to proposed I-5W through the Bay Area, because the suffix would be confusing. However, the original assignments did result in I-5 and I-5W, although some maps show I-5 and I-5E.

I-5054     I-80 to I-5, Vacaville to Dunnigan

14-Aug-1957    I-5W Tentatively Approved
08-Nov-1957    Proposed as I-7
01-Apr-1958    Proposed as I-115
07-Aug-1958    Proposed as I-5W
10-Nov-1958    Approved as I-5W
01-Jul-1964    Renumbered as I-505

I-5804     I-80 to I-5, Oakland to Modesto
(Oakland adjustment, MacArthur Freeway, Sept. 1995)
(Tracy adjustment, November 1957)

14-Aug-1957    I-5W Tentatively Approved
08-Nov-1957    Proposed as I-72
07-Aug-1958    Proposed as I-5W
10-Nov-1958    Approved as I-5W
01-Jul-1964    Renumbered as I-580

4 Originally, these routes were numbered as I-5W. In the map that accompanied the November 1957 letter proposing I-76, I-505 is shown proposed as I-7, and I-580 is shown as I-72.

Logged
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

ACSCmapcollector

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 366
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 10:13:01 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 08:58:37 PM »

I always do that cahwyguy, go to your website on a frequent basis.  There is no questions about that,
but I enjoy your posts too on here.  Now someone else is going to post after you, I predict.

Scott C. Presnal
Morro Bay, CA
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1167
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 04:32:00 AM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 10:08:05 PM »

Another reason for the shift from 5E/5W suffixed numbers to the current scheme was directly related to one of the main rationales for the 1964 renumbering -- the "one road, one number" credo adopted by the Division of Highways at that time.  The multiplex with I-80 would have stretched some 48 miles, from the present 80/580/880 interchange in Emeryville north & northeast across the Carquinez Bridges to Vacaville, where 5W would have turned north along State Legislative Route 90, which, despite its longstanding use as a connector to north US 99W, had never received signage; the basic alignment is today's I-505.  Not wanting to cosign 5W and 80 for that distance, the Division, after exploring several numbering permutations, settled on 580 for the Oakland-Tracy segment and 505 for Vacaville-Dunnigan.  Except for short sections of freeway at the junctions of CA 128 and CA 16, 505 remained largely a 2-lane road for several years after its designation.  Expansion to a full freeway began in the mid-70's; it was completed circa 1980.  Prior to completion the road was signed as "Temporary I-505"; this signage extended to BGS's on I-80 and I-5.   Along today's I-580, 5W shields were indeed deployed from the Emeryville interchange east along the MacArthur Freeway, at the time co-signed with US 50.  That initial section of 5W only extended for a few miles east to Grand Ave. in eastern Oakland; it was the only stretch to receive signage as 5W.  I-580 signage was applied to that segment in early 1964 and further east as the freeway was completed.   
Logged

cahwyguy

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 134
  • California Highway Guy

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northridge, CA
  • Last Login: March 24, 2017, 01:36:32 PM
    • California Highways
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 10:30:44 PM »

Thanks. More information to try to remember to snarf for the next round of updates so it doesn't get lost :-) .
Logged
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

Quillz

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2376
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 02:03:57 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 10:59:10 PM »

So neither 5W or 5E were actually signed in terms of shields, right?

I was doing a fictional highway renumbering for California where 5W and 5E existed. 5W follows the same routing as the actual proposal, but I replaced I-280 with I-305 and I-680 with I-505.
Logged
US Highways: 1 / 2 / 6 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 / 26 / 30 / 50 / 64 / 66 / 84 / 85 / 87 / 91 / 93 / 95 / 97 / 99 / 101 / 189 / 191 / 201 / 285 / 287 / 385 / 395
Interstate Highways: 5 / 10 / 15 / 17 / 25 / 40 / 45 / 70 / 80 / 84 / 89 / 90 / 93 / 95

myosh_tino

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2498
  • Silicon Valley Roadgeek

  • Age: 43
  • Location: Cupertino, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:53:04 AM
    • Silicon Valley Roads @ Markyville.com
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 11:37:20 PM »

So neither 5W or 5E were actually signed in terms of shields, right?

I was doing a fictional highway renumbering for California where 5W and 5E existed. 5W follows the same routing as the actual proposal, but I replaced I-280 with I-305 and I-680 with I-505.

I-5E --- No, as far as I know.

I-5W --- Yes.  See the below photo from the AARoads Shield Gallery...


Note: it was this photo that inspired me to use an I-5W shield as my avatar (someone else began using a California I-5 shield even though I was first).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 11:39:44 PM by myosh_tino »
Logged
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

briantroutman

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1236
  • Location: Tampa
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 11:42:41 PM
    • briantroutman.com/land
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 11:48:48 PM »

Missing below the black-on-white “WEST” panel should be a US 50 shield, correct?

Kind of funny that I-5W is signed E/W as opposed to N/S, and with the extraneous panel below the shield, I could imagine someone reading the assembly aloud: “west five west west”.
Logged

myosh_tino

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2498
  • Silicon Valley Roadgeek

  • Age: 43
  • Location: Cupertino, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:53:04 AM
    • Silicon Valley Roads @ Markyville.com
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2016, 11:52:07 PM »

Missing below the black-on-white “WEST” panel should be a US 50 shield, correct?

Kind of funny that I-5W is signed E/W as opposed to N/S, and with the extraneous panel below the shield, I could imagine someone reading the assembly aloud: “west five west west”.

Correct.  There should have been a US 50 shield below the I-5W.  I can therefore conclude that this photo must be of what is now I-580 in the Oakland area.
Logged
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

briantroutman

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1236
  • Location: Tampa
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 11:42:41 PM
    • briantroutman.com/land
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 12:13:56 AM »

I can therefore conclude that this photo must be of what is now I-580 in the Oakland area.

Yes, more specifically, right here: https://goo.gl/maps/toTbwE1AAKE2
Note that the clock has been removed from the building at the left, but the framework that supported still outlines its former shape.

It’s a bit odd that, despite the numerous changes to the landscape, the old photo feels familiar to me from my countless drives to my former home in Marin through that corridor.
Logged

AMLNet49

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 168
  • Location: Massachusetts
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 11:48:02 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 03:52:37 AM »

So neither 5W or 5E were actually signed in terms of shields, right?

I was doing a fictional highway renumbering for California where 5W and 5E existed. 5W follows the same routing as the actual proposal, but I replaced I-280 with I-305 and I-680 with I-505.

I-5E --- No, as far as I know.

I-5W --- Yes.  See the below photo from the AARoads Shield Gallery...


Note: it was this photo that inspired me to use an I-5W shield as my avatar (someone else began using a California I-5 shield even though I was first).

The shield in this picture looks Photoshopped. Pixels are much clearer around it and compare the text to the sign next to it.
Logged

briantroutman

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1236
  • Location: Tampa
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 11:42:41 PM
    • briantroutman.com/land
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 04:55:06 AM »

The photo was scanned out of a book, and it looks like someone did some image manipulation to remove the halftoning from the printing process. But the image is genuine. Here’s a non-manipulated copy of the scan:

Logged

AMLNet49

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 168
  • Location: Massachusetts
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 11:48:02 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 10:52:04 AM »

Ah thank you that is awesome then, great pic of a great past designation. Shield was really well in proportion, which seemed to be very common back then.
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1167
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 04:32:00 AM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 12:23:26 PM »

That picture came from the pages of the late, great Division of Highways bimonthly publication "California Highways & Public Works".  Seminal reading for me as a kid (the local library stocked it in their periodical shelves); I was quite disappointed when it ceased publication at the beginning of 1967 (coincidentally, with the incoming Reagan gubernatorial administration) -- although, in its final year, it had morphed into something of a PR flack machine for the Division.  During its heyday (1924-65), however, it served as a model for what governmental informational publications should be!
Logged

cahwyguy

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 134
  • California Highway Guy

  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northridge, CA
  • Last Login: March 24, 2017, 01:36:32 PM
    • California Highways
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 01:45:03 PM »

And, of course, it is no obligatory to note that most of the issues of CHPW have been scanned and are online at

http://libraryarchives.metro.net/DPGTL/Californiahighways/

I"ve found it a great resource.
Logged
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

Quillz

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2376
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 02:03:57 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2016, 03:24:43 PM »

Ah thank you that is awesome then, great pic of a great past designation. Shield was really well in proportion, which seemed to be very common back then.
'57 spec shield, I think. The thicker margins offer better aesthetics, I think, although the '70 spec shield is probably more legible due to the slightly thinner margins (.75'' vs. .5'', IIRC).
Logged
US Highways: 1 / 2 / 6 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 / 26 / 30 / 50 / 64 / 66 / 84 / 85 / 87 / 91 / 93 / 95 / 97 / 99 / 101 / 189 / 191 / 201 / 285 / 287 / 385 / 395
Interstate Highways: 5 / 10 / 15 / 17 / 25 / 40 / 45 / 70 / 80 / 84 / 89 / 90 / 93 / 95

The Ghostbuster

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1451
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: March 27, 2017, 03:56:55 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2016, 05:09:51 PM »

Interstate 5W and 5E were unnecessary in my opinion. Their present designations make a lot more sense.
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1167
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 04:32:00 AM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2016, 05:36:43 PM »

The original 5E/5W split was, designation-wise, more of a political decision than one made at the planning level.  The 48.3K Interstate plan cited by Adam F. was one of the earlier more extensive plans to be proffered; the immediate postwar years under the Truman administration saw the Interstate concept opened up for input & comment from various states; the composite of what was proposed by 1952 was similar in scope to that "48.3" plan, but with about 900 less total miles; but one consistent similarity was 2 routes planned between L.A. and Northern California, one along US 101 and the other following US 99.  When the plans were retrenched to (more or less) the original MacDonald plan of '44, featuring a little under 40K miles, by the incoming Eisenhower administration in 1953, the US 101-based route was again eliminated from consideration.  Prior to 1958 there was a connector from US 99 in Modesto to Oakland via SSR 132, a new-terrain route extending 132 northwest from its terminus at SSR 33 to Altamont Pass, and thence west along US 50 to the east end of the Bay Bridge.  The original number proposed for that route was I-72, but complaints began rolling in from Bay Area political figures that such a designation didn't place the region on the Interstate north-south grid.  Thus, when the first "final" sets of numbers were established in 1958, the 5E/5W concept was put into place -- which would, of course, require a substantial multiplex from Emeryville to Vacaville (about 48 miles) with I-80.  In 1963 the Division of Highways issued the "one road/one number" credo that instigated the vast 1964 renumbering effort; at that time the 5E/5W split concept was discarded in favor of I-580 for the southern half of the independent former 5W routing, and I-505 for the much shorter northern portion; 5E (none of which had been constructed at the time) gave way to mainline I-5 via Sacramento.  But by this time anti-freeway grumblings were beginning to be heard from San Francisco and other Bay locations; the concept of the Bay Area being located on a major north-south Interstate axis was no longer of any importance.   
Logged

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 787
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: March 22, 2017, 10:12:42 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2016, 05:43:31 PM »

I have a '64 map that shows it routed into the Bay Area over Altamont Pass, but does not show it again until today's 505. Was it ever actually signed within the Bay Area on one of its multiplexes?

I can see the point here about wanting an interstate highway. I mean, why does New Orleans get to keep I-10 even though I-12 is the quicker route and thru traffic would logically only use that? If they were left with just their US highways, or a mess of 3dis like the Bay Area, they'd probably be a bit upset.
Logged

myosh_tino

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2498
  • Silicon Valley Roadgeek

  • Age: 43
  • Location: Cupertino, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 03:53:04 AM
    • Silicon Valley Roads @ Markyville.com
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2016, 06:02:23 PM »

I have a '64 map that shows it routed into the Bay Area over Altamont Pass, but does not show it again until today's 505. Was it ever actually signed within the Bay Area on one of its multiplexes?

The answer to your question lies in the photos posted upthread by briantroutman and myself.
Logged
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 787
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: March 22, 2017, 10:12:42 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2016, 06:06:41 PM »

I have a '64 map that shows it routed into the Bay Area over Altamont Pass, but does not show it again until today's 505. Was it ever actually signed within the Bay Area on one of its multiplexes?

The answer to your question lies in the photos posted upthread by briantroutman and myself.

What about on I-80 since this isn't really a multiplex? I'm just curious if they let 5W traffic drop off, thinking they wouldn't use it as a thru route, or if they would sign it thru to Sac.
Logged

sparker

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1167
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 04:32:00 AM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2016, 10:22:07 PM »

If you had one of the Rand McNally maps from the mid-60's, they plastered I-shields all over existing routes to show the basic alignment of the future route; I do remember seeing 5W yellow shields alongside the US 50 markers on the 1964 road atlas, which obviously went to print prior to the number change. 

Aside from that original stretch of the MacArthur Freeway between the first "Distribution Structure" and Grand Ave., there were no other I-5W shields posted in the field.  Despite being technically multiplexed along I-80 for 48 miles north from Oakland, no I-5W reassurance shields were ever posted along that route; the only mention of 5W was on the approach BGS's from I-80 -- and those lasted about as long as the shield shown in the pictures.  The I-80 interchange with the northern independent section of I-5W wasn't constructed until 1965, a year after the number change to I-505 occurred.     
Logged

SeriesE

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 28
  • Location: CA
  • Last Login: February 27, 2017, 10:25:54 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 08:59:05 PM »

How come the San Rafael Bridge section of CA-17 was renumbered to I-580 instead of I-880?
Logged

coatimundi

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 787
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Marina, CA
  • Last Login: March 22, 2017, 10:12:42 PM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 09:31:25 PM »

How come the San Rafael Bridge section of CA-17 was renumbered to I-580 instead of I-880?

It was never 880. It was 180 for a while though.

The suffix routes - not just here but all around the country - seemed like they were just set up for failure. Not well signed, not really sensible, and only lasting a couple of years as a result. It seems like 5W was only briefly signed in an appeasement effort.
Logged

Kniwt

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 313
  • Last Login: Today at 01:48:51 AM
Re: What happened to Interstate 5W and 5E?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2016, 11:32:30 PM »

If you had one of the Rand McNally maps from the mid-60's, they plastered I-shields all over existing routes to show the basic alignment of the future route.

Here's part of the page from the 1960 Rand McNally, showing both 5W and 5E (in a vastly different alignment than what finally happened):
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.