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[The Premier]

A city this size that is a transportation hub that we are needs a complete bypass.

And a much better bus system.

Even IF the northern belt does get built, it will require a lot of rock blasting. Do you know how dangerous that is? Furthermore, it will also be hard to have developments there, much less businesses, because the northern area IIRC is very mountainous.

I understand their point.  All this is really going to do is promote sprawl-type development.  If the goal is to improve traffic flow in the middle of town, they would do better by fixing Malfunction Junction.

Didn't ALDOT just refurbished Malfunction Junction a couple years ago?

[Tourian]

And a much better bus system.

Ok, why not both. If it is one before the other I still say bypass first.

Even IF the northern belt does get built, it will require a lot of rock blasting. Do you know how dangerous that is?

I'll just give ALDOT the benefit of the doubt that the route they have chosen takes this into consideration and that I don't need to worry about it.

 

Furthermore, it will also be hard to have developments there, much less businesses, because the northern area IIRC is very mountainous.

There is plenty of room and flat enough land for there to be development out in Forestdale/Adamsville/Graysville. There is already development in Fultondale right near where 22 is coming in. There is also lots of development the Pinson/Trussville area too.

[codyg1985]

I understand their point.  All this is really going to do is promote sprawl-type development.  If the goal is to improve traffic flow in the middle of town, they would do better by fixing Malfunction Junction.

I hear the anti sprawl thing thrown around a lot, but it just doesn't hold water to me. Most of it comes from Over The Mountain suburbanites that live in this town that already enjoy the benefits of "sprawl" development. So what if people north and north west of the city get an O'Charley's and a Best Buy somewhere down the line, that doesn't necessarily mean we will jump straight to unending sprawl because of this road's existence. It just seems so much like a "We got our's, we don't what you to get yours" sort of circular argument. A city this size that is a transportation hub that we are needs a complete bypass.

I totally agree with you on the development thing. It seems like no one wants the northwest part of Birmingham metro area to experience growth. However, I don't know if a freeway is going to single-handedly cause that to happen. It is going to also take some bold developers that are willing to take on the risk of developing that area.

I think the bypass is needed, but not in it's current form. I think a bypass that is better suited for I-65 traffic would be nicer to see (one that isn't stretched northeast-southwest like I-459 is currently). Then again such a bypass would be more difficult and more expensive to build. Money needs to go towards widening I-65 to at least eight lanes through metro Birmingham.

[Tourian]

I totally agree with you on the development thing. It seems like no one wants the northwest part of Birmingham metro area to experience growth. However, I don't know if a freeway is going to single-handedly cause that to happen. It is going to also take some bold developers that are willing to take on the risk of developing that area.

I hear ya. That's why I don't think we'll see unending sprawl, because developers won't take a huge risk on those areas. I don't see it going much further then ONE Colonial Promenade like they have in McCalla, Fultondale and Alabaster. The only likely place for one left would be the Forestdale area. The only other "sprawl" you'd get would be the normal gas stations, truck stops, motels and maybe a couple of apartment complexes. Its not like hwy 78 and 79 would suddenly become 280s.

I think the bypass is needed, but not in it's current form. I think a bypass that is better suited for I-65 traffic would be nicer to see (one that isn't stretched northeast-southwest like I-459 is currently). Then again such a bypass would be more difficult and more expensive to build. Money needs to go towards widening I-65 to at least eight lanes through metro Birmingham.

Birmingham is shaped like a football so a rounder bypass is just not possible. But again, I hear what you are saying. I used to live on the north side of town and if there was a way to skirt the Junction to get to the west or east, I would have taken it. Even now I'll take 459 even though I know its longer distance wise, but because it will be faster flow wise if I'm coming from the east or west and need to get to the south or vice versa.

[Grzrd]

Here's a link to an approximate five-minute video report from a Birmingham TV station which touches upon many of the arguments recently raised in this thread:

http://www2.alabamas13.com/news/2011/apr/20/birminghams-proposed-northern-beltine-generates-st-ar-1742759/

[RoadWarrior56]

Looking at that report, it doesn't appear that the Birmingham northern beltline would go between I-59 and I-20 on the east side of Birmingham.  Other than cost savings, I can't understand the reasons for the gap.

As a resident of the Atlanta area, I can't see any advantages to me of this roadway if it does not continue to I-20.  If it did, I would use it between I-20 and I-22, otherwise, I would continue to go through the center of Birmingham.

[Grzrd]

Looking at that report, it doesn't appear that the Birmingham northern beltline would go between I-59 and I-20 on the east side of Birmingham.

The report indicates that the BNB will receive 80% of its funding from the Appalachian Regional Commission (ARC).  In addition to I-422, the proposed highway is also designated as ADHS Corridor X-1 .  Here is a link to the page for the ARC's status report of Alabama's ADHS Corridors:

http://www.arc.gov/images/programs/transp/adhs_status_report_2010/ADHS2010StatusReportAlabama.pdf

As of Sept. 30, 2010, the ADHS map still shows a segment for Corridor X-1 from I-59 to I-20 [page 4/4 of the pdf], and Corridor X-1 is still defined as extending to I-20 [page 3/4 of the pdf].  The status report indicates that, at the very least, location studies are being performed for the entire length of Corridor X-1, but I suspect such studies for the I-59 to I-20 section are in the VERY early stages.

[Buummu]

What's the point of having the Northern beltline? Why not extend I-22 to I-20 instead ending it at I-65 using parts of Northern beltline?

[The Premier]

What's the point of having the Northern beltline? Why not extend I-22 to I-20 instead ending it at I-65 using parts of Northern beltline?

Interesting suggestion.   Yet again, getting the ROW in residential areas trying to connect to I-59 or even I-20 will be very tough.

[froggie]

Extending I-22 to I-20/59 in the vicinity of the airport has been bantered about at both ALDOT and the Birmingham MPO for at least the past 10 years, if not longer.  I know the MPO was suggesting a feasibility study in the long-range plan in 2001.

The problem wouldn't be so much residential ROW as it would be the high potential for Superfund/contaminated land sites plus squeezing it past the south side of the airport.

Such a connection would also be beneficial in that it'd draw some traffic off of Malfunction Junction (I-20/59/65), especially the future traffic expected when I-22 opens to I-65.

[Buummu]

Looking at Google Maps, I can see them extending I-22 from I-65/US 31 towards I-20/59 near exit 128.... even though they might have to get rid of houses and business in the way.. (of course it won't be easy)... but I can just see ALDOT rebuilding the Maflunction Junction anytime later.. and make it similiar to the I-95/I-695 northern interchange (formerly Malfunction Junction)

[Grzrd]

What's the point of having the Northern beltline?

As a resident of the Atlanta area, I can't see any advantages to me of this roadway if it does not continue to I-20.  If it did, I would use it between I-20 and I-22

I'm also from Atlanta and doubt I would ever use this road as a bypass of Birmingham without an I-20 extension.

BNB still appears to have significant local support and ALDOT has posted its Preliminary Analysis (reevaluation of 1997 FEIS and 1999 ROD) of the BNB on its website:
http://aldotapps.dot.state.al.us/BNB/docs/Summary_TechStudyDocument_NorthernBeltline.pdf

It includes a 25 year schedule, $4.7 billion price tag, and a presumption that ARC funding will continue for the next 25 years.  A satellite image of the proposed "I-22 Connector" interchange is on page 16/98 of the pdf.

On September 27, over 600 people attended a presentation in Gardendale regarding the BNB, with a large majority of attendees apparently in support of the project:
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/09/gardendale_meeting_on_birmingh.html

...with ALDOT officials on hand to listen to and record the comments, 65 citizens and 20 to 30 elected officials spoke to the large audience. The overwhelming majority of them spoke in favor of building the road...

[codyg1985]

I'm also from Atlanta and doubt I would ever use this road as a bypass of Birmingham without an I-20 extension.

This seems to be the only use for it, and even then only if you are going from I-22 to/from I-20 or maybe I-20 to/from I-65 north. Other than that it is purely for economic development. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.

[codyg1985]

A satellite image of the proposed "I-22 Connector" interchange is on page 16/98 of the pdf.

The reasoning for constructing a connector was due to having to use braided ramps at adjacent ramps.  From the satellite image it looks like braided ramps for Cherry Ave (~3800' between ramps) and Hillcrest Rd (~1800' between ramps) would still be needed long-term if traffic grows in that area. At the very least, weaving sections would be needed on both ends.

I could also see this alternative requiring less earthwork to occur.

Also there is no need to avoid the historic trestle since it has burned down and the track has been long abandoned.

[BamaZeus]

I'm also from Atlanta and doubt I would ever use this road as a bypass of Birmingham without an I-20 extension.

This seems to be the only use for it, and even then only if you are going from I-22 to/from I-20 or maybe I-20 to/from I-65 north. Other than that it is purely for economic development. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.

It's also a means to keep 18 wheelers out of the center of the city, if possible and give them a bypass that doesn't involve weaving through traffic and crashing into the Malfunction Junction bridges like it happened a few years ago.

[Alex]

Alabama Department of Transportation to delay construction of Northern Beltline for in-depth study of route

The Alabama Department of Transportation has withdrawn its application for a permit to build the first segment of the proposed Northern Beltline until an in-depth study of the whole 52-mile route is completed.

ALDOT had applied to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for permits needed to begin construction on a 3.4-mile segment of the six-lane beltline that would connect Alabama 75 and Alabama 79 near Palmerdale in northeast Jefferson County. ALDOT has spent $15 million acquiring the needed right-of-way and had indicated construction could begin as early as next year.

ALDOT spokesman Tony Harris said ALDOT is still in the midst of a new study that will look at the Beltline project as a whole and evaluate its impact on the economy and environment. The permit application will be resubmitted after the study is completed.

"I can't speculate on when the re-evaluation will be completed because the ongoing work is very detailed," Harris said. "Obviously, the reevaluation must be completed before the project can advance, so I can't guess at when the section of the Beltline between Highways 75 and 79 will be completed."

During the public comment period on ALDOTs permit application, environmental groups had urged the Corps to reject it and were pleased ALDOT was withdrawing the application.

"I think ALDOT is doing the right thing and waiting until the reevaluation is complete," said Sarah Stokes, a staff attorney with the Birmingham office of Southern Environmental Law Center. "We are eager to see what the reevaluation contains. Hopefully, it will thoroughly study the cumulative and indirect impacts of the project and look at alternatives for investing that $4.7 billion."

The SELC represents Black Warrior Riverkeeper in a lawsuit that charges ALDOT hasn't performed required analysis needed to justify the project and determine the best route.

In their comments to Army Corps, the SELC and the Riverkeeper group said that ALDOT's attempt to proceed with construction on the first segment would have circumvented the whole review process by building a segment of the beltline in the middle of its northernmost arc, a segment that would effectively dictate the entire route.

ALDOT had justified the selection of that as the first segment because it would connect two state routes and would have independent utility if the rest of the beltline was never built. Critics of the project disputed that contention since Alabama 79 and Alabama 75 already connect a few miles south of the proposed Beltline.

Stokes said the permit at issue was a good example of the issue as a whole. ALDOT's application for the first segment asked for permission to alter the 1.66 acres of wetlands, but the Beltline project in total would affect 68 acres of wetlands.

In the same way, the construction of one 3.4-mile segment may seem to have only a minor impact but when that segment dictates the route, it is important to understand and justify the entire project, Stokes said.

"It just makes sense to do those kind of studies before you invest that kind of money," Stokes said.

[Grzrd]

The Alabama Department of Transportation has withdrawn its application for a permit to build the first segment of the proposed Northern Beltline until an in-depth study of the whole 52-mile route is completed ...
ALDOT spokesman Tony Harris said ALDOT is still in the midst of a new study that will look at the Beltline project as a whole and evaluate its impact on the economy and environment. The permit application will be resubmitted after the study is completed.

I posted this article in the "Alabama" thread earlier today, but I started thinking about the possible effects of tolling the Northern Beltline.  It seems like a study would need to be performed to determine how much of the Northern Beltline's traffic would avoid the toll by simply staying on I-59 and I-65 southward and then continuing on I-59/I-20 toward Tuscaloosa (and vice versa).  My hunch is that number would be significant.  It seems like a tolling study should include the additional thirteen miles of Corridor X-1 from I-59 to I-20. My guess is that a significant amount of through traffic from Atlanta to Memphis, particularly freight traffic, would be willing to pay a toll to bypass Birmingham and use the Northern Beltline as the route to get from I-20 to I-22.  At the very least, I think a tolling study would need to address this possibility because it might provide the best opportunity for tolls to be feasible.

[codyg1985]

Can a road built with APD funding be tolled?

[Tourian]

Tolling it just seems asinine, in my opinion. Too many people will just avoid using it.

[froggie]

If that's the case, then perhaps the road isn't necessary after all...

[Tourian]

I don't get that logic. They should toll I-459 too. Why do people in the more affluent southern suburbs get a free bypass while the neglected north has to pay? Truckers don't care, they'll just get reimbursed by their carriers. That's what a bypass is really for. However, the common local man just wanting to shave a few minutes off his commute shouldn't have to pay. Little towns like Graysville that are frothing at the mouth buying up property looking foward to collecting tax revenue off of businesses that they'll build off of I-22 would love to have the same opportunity with I-422.

[mightyace]

If you toll one or both bypasses, you'll likely get a situation similar to Austin, TX.  The straight route through town (I-35) is not tolled and congested.  The tolled bypass has little traffic as it is longer and the tolls are high enough that it is not worth it for truckers to pay the high rates versus slugging through on I-35.

[Tourian]

Right. I agree, having one tolled bypass (or actually half a bypass) tolled and the other half not is insane. Make it free or don't even bother.

[Grzrd]

This March 29 article indicates that the FHWA has approved Alabama's environmental evaluation of the 3.4-mile segment between Alabama 75 and Alabama 79, and that ALDOT will now start relocating utility lines along that section:

Proponents of plans for the Northern Beltline scored a major victory today as the Federal Highway Administration gave approval to the state's environmental evaluation of the first segment of the 52-mile interstate connector.
Alabama Department of Transportation director John Cooper tonight confirmed the state had received approval of its evaluation, which had been submitted earlier this week ....
The approval of the evaluation will allow the state to begin working toward relocating utility lines on a 3.4-mile segment between Alabama 75 and Alabama 79 near Palmerdale in northeast Jefferson County.
That must be done before bids for construction can be sought, he said ....
ALDOT in November withdrew its application to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to build that first segment as it prepared to conduct an in-depth study of the entire 52-mile route.
At that point, ALDOT had spent $15 million acquiring the needed right-of-way in the area of that first segment and had indicated construction could begin this year.
ALDOT officials at the time said the permit application would be resubmitted after the study is completed ....

I'm a little confused.  Won't ALDOT still have to submit another application to the Corps of Engineers in order to start construction on the Alabama 75 to Alabama 79 segment?  Or, is this simply a prerequisite before re-submitting an application to the Corps?

EDIT - Or, is the Alabama 75 to Alabama 79 segment a SIU of the Northern Beltline, and "FHWA approval" is the issuance of a FEIS (ROD?) for the SIU?

[Henry]

Seeing that the western section most likely won't be built anytime soon, I'd be for an I-22 extension to I-20/I-59, which would provide not only a smooth transition to another Interstate route, but also, a more complete northern bypass of downtown.