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[TheStranger]

Just saw this on Flickr...Route 60 at I-710:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raymondyue/4881130813/

First time I've seen a center-tabbed, non-external sign in these parts...Certainly not all CalTrans districts use that form, as demonstrated by these examples installed in the last year:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/4770792146/in/set-72157624279252253/

[Brandon]

Bizarre.  Would it kill the California Department of Transportation to use normal tabs like everyone else?  I mean, they could put the tab above the sign a la Missouri and North Carolina, or they could incorporate a full width tab like Illinois into the sign.  Either way, it's better than that. 

[TheStranger]

or they could incorporate a full width tab like Illinois into the sign.

I will say that the regular internal-tab California signs offer somewhat of a visual advantage over a full-width tab, in that the text justification on one side or the other of the sign area is slightly more obvious, via the divider lines.

[kurumi]

Bizarre.  Would it kill the California Department of Transportation to use normal tabs like everyone else? ...  

Apparently it would. The concern is wind loading... apparently the exit tabs would break off in the wind.

I assume Caltrans looked at other coastal states known for hurricanes, etc., and examined how they handle exit tabs. Here are some examples:

Florida: http://www.interstate-guide.com/images295/i-295_fl_nt_09.jpg

Alabama: http://www.gribblenation.com/alpics/gallery/IH10atMichigan.jpg

South Carolina: http://www.southeastroads.com/blog/southeast/i-026_eb_exit_219b_01.jpg


They might have also looked in tornado country:

Oklahoma: http://www.interstate-guide.com/images240/i-240_ok_et_08.jpg

Kansas: http://www.interstate-guide.com/images435/i-435_ks_nst_04.jpg


Ah, just kidding. The real motivation is that the "shove it in the corner" exit boxes help make the signs even uglier. The coup de grāce will probably be non-cutout US route markers and/or C***rv**w 

[agentsteel53]

they seem to have done an okay job on those 1971 porcelain exit tabs. 

then again, those porcelain signs in general are in excellent condition.  They had a design life of 30 years, and some of them are as much as 51 years old now and still going strong.  explain to me again why we have shitty Clearview retroreflective signs that last six years at most?

oh right, asphalt lobby.  and Transponder Jesus.

[TheStranger]

they seem to have done an okay job on those 1971 porcelain exit tabs.  

then again, those porcelain signs in general are in excellent condition.  They had a design life of 30 years, and some of them are as much as 51 years old now and still going strong.  explain to me again why we have shitty Clearview retroreflective signs that last six years at most?

oh right, asphalt lobby.  and Transponder Jesus.

I wonder how wind-loading was factored into the 1971 porcelain tabs (which were all center-aligned), and if the left/right justification in today's standards affected current thinking.

(though there IS that Exit 2C Alameda Street external tab, as well as the new external overhead tabs further north on 101/Santa Ana Freeway!)

In any case, button copy/porcelain/paneled signs really represent California's "long-life" sign philosophy, which is anathema to the current "replace every five years" approach used nationally.

[agentsteel53]

In any case, button copy/porcelain/paneled signs really represent California's "long-life" sign philosophy, which is anathema to the current "replace every five years" approach used nationally.

California designed a lot of things for long life, and they are getting their value out of it.  The original 1958 concrete on I-80 over Donner (likely the most abused stretch of pavement in the US, between the snow and the trucks) is still there in places and still works fine.

[myosh_tino]

In any case, button copy/porcelain/paneled signs really represent California's "long-life" sign philosophy, which is anathema to the current "replace every five years" approach used nationally.

California designed a lot of things for long life, and they are getting their value out of it.  The original 1958 concrete on I-80 over Donner (likely the most abused stretch of pavement in the US, between the snow and the trucks) is still there in places and still works fine.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one.  Yes, the pavement is over 50 years old and Caltrans should be commended on making it last for such a long time but the concrete on westbound 80 from Truckee to Donner Summit is/was absolutely horrible.  The right lane had two huge ruts caused by decades of use by big rigs.  The other lane was in better shape but it was very, very rough to the point where I couldn't maintain 65 MPH because I was getting bounced around.

Thankfully, that 50+ year old pavement is being replaced with new concrete.  In fact, Caltrans is in the middle of a multi-year project to replace the pavement on I-80 from Colfax to the Nevada state line.

FWIW, the new reflective exit signs on I-80 over the Sierra Nevada mountains didn't last too long.  On a few of them, sections of the green sheeting has peeled away.  Examples...
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=truckee,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.983628,75.673828&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Truckee,+Nevada,+California&ll=39.311971,-120.494764&spn=0.010609,0.018475&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.311975,-120.495085&panoid=fbrtf1h28KH4Hrhl3F55tg&cbp=12,313.41,,0,12.94

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=truckee,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.983628,75.673828&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Truckee,+Nevada,+California&ll=39.38363,-120.080062&spn=0.005299,0.009238&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.38352,-120.079738&panoid=-edAay9dcq5QVlZa9usLNQ&cbp=12,304.42,,1,1.31

[Brandon]

or they could incorporate a full width tab like Illinois into the sign.

I will say that the regular internal-tab California signs offer somewhat of a visual advantage over a full-width tab, in that the text justification on one side or the other of the sign area is slightly more obvious, via the divider lines.

It does?

Illinois:


This is rather visible and discernable, and no fugly divider lines required.

[TheStranger]

or they could incorporate a full width tab like Illinois into the sign.

I will say that the regular internal-tab California signs offer somewhat of a visual advantage over a full-width tab, in that the text justification on one side or the other of the sign area is slightly more obvious, via the divider lines.

It does?

Illinois:
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz298/midamcrossrds/100_0833.jpg

This is rather visible and discernable, and no fugly divider lines required.

Compare to:



(I wasn't referrering to the route-junction-split divider line, but rather having a line delineating tab space)

[agentsteel53]

the concrete on westbound 80 from Truckee to Donner Summit is/was absolutely horrible.  The right lane had two huge ruts caused by decades of use by big rigs.  The other lane was in better shape but it was very, very rough to the point where I couldn't maintain 65 MPH because I was getting bounced around.

I definitely have done 85mph up that grade from Verdi.  In the left lane, because all the climbing trucks were clogging the right lane.

yes, by now, it's some of the worst concrete in the state, but the fact remains, it is infinitely better than shit asphalt that needs to be replaced every six years.

there is some asphalt paving on some sections of the old Ridge Route.  It's coming off horribly ... revealing perfectly good 1913 concrete.

[myosh_tino]

the concrete on westbound 80 from Truckee to Donner Summit is/was absolutely horrible.  The right lane had two huge ruts caused by decades of use by big rigs.  The other lane was in better shape but it was very, very rough to the point where I couldn't maintain 65 MPH because I was getting bounced around.

I definitely have done 85mph up that grade from Verdi.  In the left lane, because all the climbing trucks were clogging the right lane.

yes, by now, it's some of the worst concrete in the state, but the fact remains, it is infinitely better than shit asphalt that needs to be replaced every six years.

Hmmm... your car must have a better suspension or shock absorbers that mine.    Like I said, I have trouble maintaining 65 MPH between Truckee and Donner Pass.  I do agree that concrete is the better pavement when it comes to longevity but there is a new type of asphalt being used here in the SF Bay Area to resurface the freeways.  It's called "rubberized asphalt" where they recycle old tires by grinding them up and adding it to the asphalt mix.  The result is an incredibly smooth and quiet road surface.  It also increases visibility during the rainy season because the surface is porous enough to absorb rain water and that cuts down on the amount of spray kicked up by fast moving cars.  Granted, this type of pavement is probably not meant to be used in the Sierra Nevada mountains where sub-freezing temps are common during the winter.

[KEK Inc.]

Caltran[s] uses sign bridges with set heights.  Their signs, for the most part, are the same height (I think there's two different heights) as the sign bridge or slightly taller.  I don't know the dimensions, but I'm sure TheStranger or myosh will know.     

That said, full-width tabs take too much space on the sign since they have a set height.

[myosh_tino]

Going back to TheStranger's original post, yeah, that centered tab within the sign looks weird.  If I were the sign designed, here's what I would have suggested.

The original...


Suggestion #1...


Suggestion #2...

[agentsteel53]

Hmmm... your car must have a better suspension or shock absorbers that mine.    Like I said, I have trouble maintaining 65 MPH between Truckee and Donner Pass. 

or I was in a rental car and didn't care if I returned it with three wheels  

I do agree that concrete is the better pavement when it comes to longevity but there is a new type of asphalt being used here in the SF Bay Area to resurface the freeways.  It's called "rubberized asphalt" where they recycle old tires by grinding them up and adding it to the asphalt mix.  The result is an incredibly smooth and quiet road surface.  It also increases visibility during the rainy season because the surface is porous enough to absorb rain water and that cuts down on the amount of spray kicked up by fast moving cars.  Granted, this type of pavement is probably not meant to be used in the Sierra Nevada mountains where sub-freezing temps are common during the winter.

how long does it last?  and what are the advantages of it being quiet?  I'm on the road, not at the library!

[agentsteel53]

The original...

Suggestion #1...

Suggestion #2...

state name missing from shields.  Pasadena misidentified as Valley Boulevard.  state route 7 bear 15 inexplicably signed as interstate.  

that said, I like suggestion 1.  I've always liked multiple directional tabs with a single shield, which is a California tradition that goes back to the 1950s.

[myosh_tino]

Caltran[s] uses sign bridges with set heights.  Their signs, for the most part, are the same height (I think there's two different heights) as the sign bridge or slightly taller.  I don't know the dimensions, but I'm sure TheStranger or myosh will know.     

That said, full-width tabs take too much space on the sign since they have a set height.

You are correct that the sign panel height should be the same for all signs on a structure (truss sign bridge, box-beam bridge, overpass, etc).  In fact, when a truss or box-beam bridge is used, Caltrans goes so far as to specify what the sign height must be based on what they call the "frame depth".  The frame depth is the height of the structure the signs are attached to.  See the drawing below...


Of course, there are going to be exceptions (this is Caltrans we're talking about) but in general, the maximum height of an overhead sign is 120 inches.  There are numerous examples of larger signs being placed on smaller structures.

[TheStranger]

that said, I like suggestion 1.  I've always liked multiple directional tabs with a single shield, which is a California tradition that goes back to the 1950s.

I do too.  

Interestingly, some signage from this year - the Arroyo Seco Parkway name restoration project - lacks exit tabs for this type of signing!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raymondyue/4793004642/in/photostream/
(Seems to be a tab on the 110 sign in the distance though, which I find odd)


It appears that local CalTrans districts can make the choice whether a freeway junction will get exit numbers or not, which is unusual.

[myosh_tino]

I do agree that concrete is the better pavement when it comes to longevity but there is a new type of asphalt being used here in the SF Bay Area to resurface the freeways.  It's called "rubberized asphalt" where they recycle old tires by grinding them up and adding it to the asphalt mix.  The result is an incredibly smooth and quiet road surface.  It also increases visibility during the rainy season because the surface is porous enough to absorb rain water and that cuts down on the amount of spray kicked up by fast moving cars.  Granted, this type of pavement is probably not meant to be used in the Sierra Nevada mountains where sub-freezing temps are common during the winter.

how long does it last?  and what are the advantages of it being quiet?  I'm on the road, not at the library!

Not sure about how long it lasts.  I think the first installation of this type of pavement was on I-880 in Alameda County and that was probably 5-7 years ago and it's still in very good condition.  The lack of spray from the car in front of you when the pavement is wet is what I really like about it.  I suspect the "quiet ride", which I appreciate because I don't have to crank up the radio while driving), also reduces road noise for the residents living near the freeway.

[agentsteel53]

I think the first installation of this type of pavement was on I-880 in Alameda County and that was probably 5-7 years ago and it's still in very good condition.  The lack of spray from the car in front of you when the pavement is wet is what I really like about it.  I suspect the "quiet ride", which I appreciate because I don't have to crank up the radio while driving), also reduces road noise for the residents living near the freeway.

those first two points are quite valid.  as for road noise - the ambient white background noise of tires on surface is not the stuff people complain about.  it's the jackhammer brakes, the honking, the hideous bursts of pseudo-acceleration from the guy who hasn't figured out that the fat muffler is so 1998 ... that's what contributes to detrimental road noise, and re-surfacing does nothing about it.

as for having to turn up the music - there are far greater indignities to be suffered in life! 

[TheStranger]

state name missing from shields.  Pasadena misidentified as Valley Boulevard.  state route 7 bear 15 inexplicably signed as interstate. 

LOL!

It seems the "Valley Boulevard" appellation only starts appearing north of Route 60, and most of the time is a greenout plate over "Pasadena."  I do think that it'd be much more useful to have Los Angeles as the control city between Route 47 and I-5, but I digress.

[myosh_tino]

as for road noise - the ambient white background noise of tires on surface is not the stuff people complain about.  it's the jackhammer brakes, the honking, the hideous bursts of pseudo-acceleration from the guy who hasn't figured out that the fat muffler is so 1998 ... that's what contributes to detrimental road noise, and re-surfacing does nothing about it.

Tell that to the folks living near CA-85.  When the new section of freeway (between 280 and 87) opened in 1994, the complaints about road noise came pouring in.  Please keep in mind that this is a concrete surface and no trucks are allowed.  The only solution was to micro-grind the pavement which resulted in a quieter ride in the car and a reduction in the road noise heard by near by residents.

[agentsteel53]

It seems the "Valley Boulevard" appellation only starts appearing north of Route 60, and most of the time is a greenout plate over "Pasadena."  I do think that it'd be much more useful to have Los Angeles as the control city between Route 47 and I-5, but I digress.

that or sign a surface-street TEMPORARY I-710 (Valley to Fremont Blvd maybe?).

[TheStranger]

It seems the "Valley Boulevard" appellation only starts appearing north of Route 60, and most of the time is a greenout plate over "Pasadena."  I do think that it'd be much more useful to have Los Angeles as the control city between Route 47 and I-5, but I digress.

that or sign a surface-street TEMPORARY I-710 (Valley to Fremont Blvd maybe?).

There is plenty of precedent for this too (Temp I-15 on Hammer Avenue/Route 31, Temp/State Route 215, and of course State Route 15 on 40th Street in San Diego)...which may not matter because I could see South Pasadena kvetching anyway.

Even then, 710 remains the best route from LA to LB and vice versa - the two largest urban cores in Los Angeles County - so why not have it signed for the former going northbound?  I wonder what its control cities were when the route was built as bear Route 15 (way before the I-210 to I-10 segment was even fully mapped out).

[agentsteel53]

There is plenty of precedent for this too (Temp I-15 on Hammer Avenue/Route 31, Temp/State Route 215, and of course State Route 15 on 40th Street in San Diego)...which may not matter because I could see South Pasadena kvetching anyway.

let 'em.  progress is awesome.  luddites are not.  if your house is about to go, accept the generous buyout and move on.  I was talking to a friend of mine whose business is about to be bought by Caltrans to build a segment of CA-58/I-40, and he told me that they were very reasonable in their negotiations and offered a very fair eminent domain buyout deal.