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[TheStranger]

As an offshoot of this thread - http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3436.0 - in which the example of the Stadium Way exit losing its exit number in a early-2000s retroreflective sign replacement was brought up - I thought it'd be a good idea to have a separate discussion on the 1971 CalTrans exit numbering experiment that occurred on several freeways:

- US 101 along its entire Santa Ana Freeway segment
- I-5 for about 2-3 miles from I-10 to Indiana Street
- I-10 at one point from Santa Monica to near Route 19 according to early-1980s maps, though most of the tabs were gone by the 2000s
- I-110/Route 110 (then Route 11 at the time) from I-10 (more accurately, 9th Street) to Figueroa Street/post-1964 Route 159

It seems the routes chosen, in addition to their proximity to downtown Los Angeles, were all not newer freeways under construction at the time (i.e. I-210, Route 57, Route 118) but older routes that had been completed by the early 1960s - suggesting to me that these tabs came about as part of a normal-maintenance sign replacement project.  I'm not sure if any white-on-black overheads - present on the Santa Ana Freeway, San Bernardino Freeway, and Harbor/Pasadena Freeways in the 1950s - remained by the time the experiment started.

Here's what I think is a comprehensive list of 1971-tab photos on AARoads, listed by freeway:

Santa Ana Freeway northbound (Interstate 5 and US 101)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_131_02.jpg - Indiana Street (Exit 131)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_131_03.jpg - Indiana Street (Exit 131), Calzona Street (Exit 132)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_132_02.jpg - Calzona Street (Exit 132)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_133_01.jpg - Grande Vista Avenue (Exit 133 in current calculations, was Exit 132B in 1971)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_133_05.jpg - Grande Vista Avenue (Exit 133 in current calculations, was Exit 132B in 1971 - note the total divergence between unmodified overhead and newer gore point sign!)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001a_04.jpg - Fourth Street (Exit 1A)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001a_05.jpg - Fourth Street (Exit 1A)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001b_03a.jpg - First Street (Exit 1B - replaced by retroreflective sign with number before 2008 - http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001b_03.jpg)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001c_03a.jpg - Cesar Chavez Avenue (formerly Brooklyn Avenue) (Exit 1C - replaced by retroreflective sign with new assembly before 2008 - http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_001c_03.jpg - note that Cesar Chavez overhead itself dates to the mid-1990s, but tab is from 1971)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_002a_08.jpg - Vignes Street (Exit 2A) and Alameda Street/historic US 101 (Exit 2B)

Santa Ana Freeway southbound (US 101)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002c_03.jpg - Broadway (Exit 3A in 1971, Exit 2C in current calculations) and Los Angeles Street (Exit 2B in current calculations, Exit 2C in 1971)
a counterexample: http://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002a_03.jpg the exit for Alameda Street had no number in the 1971 project, but has a NEW overhead tab as of 2008! - http://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002a_03a.jpg
counterexample #2: the San Bernardino Split (I-10 east from US 101 south) had no number in 1971, but received an external tab ca. 2008 - http://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001d_02.jpg

Golden State Freeway northbound (Interstate 5)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_134b_02.jpg - Seventh Street (Exit 134C in current calculations, was Exit 133A in 1971)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_134b_03.jpg - Soto Street (Exit 134B in current calculations, Exit 133B in 1971)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_134c_02.jpg - Seventh Street (Exit 134C in current calculations, was Exit 133A in 1971)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_134c_04.jpg - Seventh Street (Exit 134C in current calculations, was Exit 133A in 1971)

Santa Monica Freeway eastbound (short portion of Route 1, and mostly Interstate 10)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images001/ca-001_sb_pch_santa_monica_08.jpg - Route 1 (Exit 1A)

San Bernardino Freeway eastbound (Interstate 10)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images010/i-010_eb_exit_020a_01.jpg - City Terrace Drive (now Exit 20A, was exit 20 in 1971 - tabbed sign replaced with numberless overhead some time between 2005 and 2008!!!)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images010/i-010_eb_exit_022_04.jpg - Fremont Avenue (Exit 22, tabbed sign replaced with numberless overhead some time between 2005 and 2008)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images010/i-010_eb_exit_023a_02.jpg - Atlantic Boulevard/historic pre-1964 Route 15 (Exit 23A in current calculations, was Exit 23 in 1971)

Harbor Freeway northbound (signed as I-110 southbound in its entirety, I-110 northbound from Route 47 to I-10 and Route 110 northbound from I-10 to US 101)

http://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_nb_exit_022_03.jpg - 9th/6th Street (Exit 22A)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_nb_exit_022_02.jpg - 4th/3rd Street (Exit 22B in 1971, 23B in current calculations)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_nb_exit_023b_01.jpg - 4th/3rd Street (Exit 22B in 1971, 23B in current calculations)


Arroyo Seco Parkway (Pasadena Freeway) northbound (Route 110)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_nb_exit_024b_02.jpg - Stadium Way (Exit 24)
http://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_nb_exit_024b_01.jpg - Stadium Way (Exit 24) and Academy Road (Exit 25)


From what I saw on one of the pages here at AARoads, 300 tabs were installed before the program was halted (and the waiver for installation granted by the FHWA, which remained until 2002) - this was well before Jerry Brown's anti-road stance, so I'm not sure if it was a matter of funding issues, or sheer lack of desire to devote any more resources to this project.

[Quillz]

Newer signs that lost exit numbers will eventually have it restored, though, right? I thought the govt. mandated that all exits must be numbered according to mileage by 2020.

[TheStranger]

Newer signs that lost exit numbers will eventually have it restored, though, right? I thought the govt. mandated that all exits must be numbered according to mileage by 2020.

Specifically for this state, CalNEXUS project has been ongoing since 2002, though any deadlines for its completion have long since fallen by the wayside.  I presume that the project proceeds only as far as budgets allow, though that then doesn't explain why some freeway-to-freeway junctions have not gotten numbers with newer signage in the last year or so.

IIRC, the government mandate only applies to Interstates?  (Which is where California is actually way ahead of some other states - both in 1971 and in the current numbeirng projects, US highways and state routes also received numbers, something not always found elsewhere.)

[roadfro]

Newer signs that lost exit numbers will eventually have it restored, though, right? I thought the govt. mandated that all exits must be numbered according to mileage by 2020.

Specifically for this state, CalNEXUS project has been ongoing since 2002, though any deadlines for its completion have long since fallen by the wayside.  I presume that the project proceeds only as far as budgets allow, though that then doesn't explain why some freeway-to-freeway junctions have not gotten numbers with newer signage in the last year or so.

IIRC, the government mandate only applies to Interstates?  (Which is where California is actually way ahead of some other states - both in 1971 and in the current numbeirng projects, US highways and state routes also received numbers, something not always found elsewhere.)

The 2009 MUTCD requires location-based exit numbers on all freeways (not just Interstates) and on all expressways where reference sign continuity is maintained with a route.  The 2003 MUTCD only required exit numbers on all freeways, and indicated a preference for milepost-based exit numbering.  I did not see a compliance date in the new MUTCD for implementing/converting exit numbering, but it could be implied from the MUTCD that exit numbers may need to change when signs are replaced or there is a major project...

EDIT: I was mistaken about the new MUTCD requiring exit numbering on expressways.

[TheStranger]

The 2009 MUTCD requires location-based exit numbers on all freeways (not just Interstates) and on all expressways where reference sign continuity is maintained with a route.

On the latter point...how is this determined?  (i.e. does any divided four-lane numbered route need exit numbers at intersections, like on the West Side Highway in Manhattan?)

For the former point...prior to 2003, was it primarily an Interstate-specific directive to have numbered exits, or was the post-1971 rule applicable to any limited access route?

[myosh_tino]

I've always been intrigued by the 1971 spec exit tabs used in southern California so taking one of the pictures from the AARoads gallery, I tried to duplicate that style of exit tab and here's what I came up with...

First the original photo...


My Version...


Tab Specs
Border - 1.25"
Height - 24" (same as current exit tabs)
"EXIT" - 10" Series E
Numerals - 15" Series E(M)
Horizontal Spacing - 18"
  (from left edge to "E" in EXIT, in between "EXIT" and numerals, from right edge of numerals to right edge of tab)

These tabs also allow me to better draw exit signs in Oregon as they use a similarly sized exit tab...

[TheStranger]

Tab Specs
"EXIT" - 10" Series E
Numerals - 15" Series E(M)

First off...great work!  The advantage of this design is very clear - the full use of the original overhead's sign space for legend is retained, unlike the compressed look the internal tabs basically force.

You know, I actually wonder if the numerals are not E(M) but rather D(M) - the 2 in particular does not seem to be as aggressive looking as I would have expected!
http://www.fhwa.org/en/products/fhwa/fhwa_2000ex_en.html

Or maybe they're regular Series E.

[myosh_tino]

You know, I noticed that too.  It's possible the numbers are Series E but I don't think they are Series D (look at the last photo you linked to... the number 5 on the Academy Rd exit sign is distinctly Series E or E-modified).  Looking at some Oregon examples, it's pretty clear they use E or E-modified also.

The more I look at the original versus what I drew, the "EXIT" looks like it's either a stretched Series D or a compressed Series E.  I think I'll keep mine as they are.

[roadfro]

The 2009 MUTCD requires location-based exit numbers on all freeways (not just Interstates) and on all expressways where reference sign continuity is maintained with a route.

On the latter point...how is this determined?  (i.e. does any divided four-lane numbered route need exit numbers at intersections, like on the West Side Highway in Manhattan?)

For the former point...prior to 2003, was it primarily an Interstate-specific directive to have numbered exits, or was the post-1971 rule applicable to any limited access route?

On a second look, I was mistaken in regards to exit numbers being required on expressways...I was cross referencing something with mileposting and looked and quoted incorrectly. The 2009 National MUTCD requires exit numbers on all freeways, but only encourages use of exit numbers along expressways "where there is appreciable
continuity of interchange facilities, interrupted only by an occasional intersection at grade".

As for numbering exits on Interstates versus all freeways, I can only state that each MUTCD since the Millennium Edition has stated that all freeways should have exit numbers.

[J N Winkler]

It seems the routes chosen, in addition to their proximity to downtown Los Angeles, were all not newer freeways under construction at the time (i.e. I-210, Route 57, Route 118) but older routes that had been completed by the early 1960s - suggesting to me that these tabs came about as part of a normal-maintenance sign replacement project.

I think that is unlikely.  Caltrans rarely programmed sign replacement before the mid-noughties and I am highly doubtful that any would have been programmed on freeways that new except for message revisions.  I think Caltrans deliberately chose freeways which had already been built to test the practicability of implementing exit numbering by retrofit.

From what I saw on one of the pages here at AARoads, 300 tabs were installed before the program was halted (and the waiver for installation granted by the FHWA, which remained until 2002) - this was well before Jerry Brown's anti-road stance, so I'm not sure if it was a matter of funding issues, or sheer lack of desire to devote any more resources to this project.

The experiment was declared a success and the traffic engineers responsible recommended that the exit numbering program be expanded, at least to all urban freeways in California.  Mileposting was an unresolved problem, however.  Caltrans contemplated several standard milepost designs, at least one of which has found its way into the books of obsoleted sign specs at Caltrans HQ but not into any set of published sign specs I have been able to obtain.  At the time the 1972 exit numbering report was written, there had been no policy decision to show endpoint-based (as opposed to county-based) milepoints on signs.  The question of whether an exit numbering program needed to be correlated with a mileposting program (which has been answered in the negative in the present CALNEXUS era) was up in the air.

As far as I can tell, exit numbering on freeways was spiked in the Caltrans director's office.  Ronald Reagan, who was no friend of infrastructure spending (see UC system), was then Governor.

[TheStranger]

From what I saw on one of the pages here at AARoads, 300 tabs were installed before the program was halted (and the waiver for installation granted by the FHWA, which remained until 2002) - this was well before Jerry Brown's anti-road stance, so I'm not sure if it was a matter of funding issues, or sheer lack of desire to devote any more resources to this project.

The experiment was declared a success and the traffic engineers responsible recommended that the exit numbering program be expanded, at least to all urban freeways in California.  Mileposting was an unresolved problem, however.

Funny enough, I would say that in the CalNexus era, mileposting has been practically ignored (as you noted in that paragraph).  Isn't mileposting a MUTCD mandate though these days?

As far as I can tell, exit numbering on freeways was spiked in the Caltrans director's office.  Ronald Reagan, who was no friend of infrastructure spending (see UC system), was then Governor.

Was there ever a report as to why that decision was made?  And since you mentioned the experiment was successful...any published writings on how that success was determined?

Exit numbers are slowly starting to creep up in popular usage, i.e. in advertisements and such (prior to CalNexus, exit names were commonly used in such print).  I don't know where I or anyone else could find ads of the time from metro LA to see if the numbers installed then received print use as well...it doesn't sound like this project started with much fanfare or media coverage, compared to CalNexus.

[J N Winkler]

Funny enough, I would say that in the CalNexus era, mileposting has been practically ignored (as you noted in that paragraph).  Isn't mileposting a MUTCD mandate though these days?

I believe it is and I assume that Caltrans is under an obligation to formulate a plan to come into compliance.  Based on their present attitude toward exit numbering in general, I would not expect quick action on this issue.  But back in 1972, when the exit numbering study was carried out, and even earlier (milepointing was considered in, e.g., a 1964 [?] Caltrans report on possible guide signing enhancements), there was a sincere desire to know whether these late-1960's guide signing enhancements would aid motorist comprehension and navigation.

As far as I can tell, exit numbering on freeways was spiked in the Caltrans director's office.  Ronald Reagan, who was no friend of infrastructure spending (see UC system), was then Governor.

Was there ever a report as to why that decision was made?  And since you mentioned the experiment was successful...any published writings on how that success was determined?

I am not aware that the decision to reject exit numbering was ever committed to writing.  But the original exit numbering report issued a favorable recommendation and was addressed to the Caltrans director, so the initiative would have rested in the Caltrans director's office.  It was filed with a green-ink letter from Joe Q. Public crying foul about spending the money on exit numbering instead of elementary schools.  (I have copies of these documents and I am reasonably certain I included them on the DVD I sent Jake months ago.)

Exit numbers are slowly starting to creep up in popular usage, i.e. in advertisements and such (prior to CalNexus, exit names were commonly used in such print).  I don't know where I or anyone else could find ads of the time from metro LA to see if the numbers installed then received print use as well...it doesn't sound like this project started with much fanfare or media coverage, compared to CalNexus.

It was reported in the Los Angeles Times--the report included copies of press cuttings dealing with the exit numbering experiment.  The angry letter from Joe Q. Public made reference to the Times coverage.  I am not sure whether the Times has an online archive reaching that far back, or whether it is searchable, but if it does, you might very well find articles dealing with the origin and progression of the program and the reason for its cancellation, assuming the Caltrans brass didn't just decide to drop it quietly and hope nobody would notice.

[TheStranger]

Funny enough, I would say that in the CalNexus era, mileposting has been practically ignored (as you noted in that paragraph).  Isn't mileposting a MUTCD mandate though these days?

I believe it is and I assume that Caltrans is under an obligation to formulate a plan to come into compliance.  Based on their present attitude toward exit numbering in general, I would not expect quick action on this issue.  But back in 1972, when the exit numbering study was carried out, and even earlier (milepointing was considered in, e.g., a 1964 [?] Caltrans report on possible guide signing enhancements), there was a sincere desire to know whether these late-1960's guide signing enhancements would aid motorist comprehension and navigation.

In that vein, I've often wondered what the deal was with those one-shot Route 58 mileposts on the bypass freeway recently constructed in Mojave...

As much as budgetary concerns have always existed for CalTrans (note, not necessarily the old Division of Highways)...it almost seems like a miracle that any old signs have ever been replaced, given the late-1950s and early-1960s examples that can be found in the largest metro areas here.  The rule of thumb seems to be, the older the freeway, the more likely an old sign remains in some form, even after sign retrofit/replacement projects (i.e. the US 101 portion of the Santa Ana Freeway).

As far as I can tell, exit numbering on freeways was spiked in the Caltrans director's office.  Ronald Reagan, who was no friend of infrastructure spending (see UC system), was then Governor.

Was there ever a report as to why that decision was made?  And since you mentioned the experiment was successful...any published writings on how that success was determined?

I am not aware that the decision to reject exit numbering was ever committed to writing.  But the original exit numbering report issued a favorable recommendation and was addressed to the Caltrans director, so the initiative would have rested in the Caltrans director's office.  It was filed with a green-ink letter from Joe Q. Public crying foul about spending the money on exit numbering instead of elementary schools.  (I have copies of these documents and I am reasonably certain I included them on the DVD I sent Jake months ago.)

I'm actually pretty excited to see that exit numbering report now...if at the very least to see what was the basis for the favorable recommendation - even if the rationales seem obvious to us, to see it in writing in an official CalTrans document would be intriguing.

Exit numbers are slowly starting to creep up in popular usage, i.e. in advertisements and such (prior to CalNexus, exit names were commonly used in such print).  I don't know where I or anyone else could find ads of the time from metro LA to see if the numbers installed then received print use as well...it doesn't sound like this project started with much fanfare or media coverage, compared to CalNexus.

It was reported in the Los Angeles Times--the report included copies of press cuttings dealing with the exit numbering experiment.  The angry letter from Joe Q. Public made reference to the Times coverage.  I am not sure whether the Times has an online archive reaching that far back, or whether it is searchable, but if it does, you might very well find articles dealing with the origin and progression of the program and the reason for its cancellation, assuming the Caltrans brass didn't just decide to drop it quietly and hope nobody would notice.

Checking the LA Times archives now...

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/about.html

They seem to only go back 15 years, which isn't really in the scope of things.  I know from experience that the UC Davislibrary has Sacramento Bee archives dating into the 1970s and 1980s and beyond (which during my time there, I was able to browse/search through online - don't think I can now), so I wonder if UCLA's library has such archives of their own...

What was the equivalent of the old California Highways and Public Works magazine after the sixties?  I don't think that specific publication was around in 1971. 

There IS a LA Times photo archive...http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt7489n8x1

[J N Winkler]

I have now uploaded the exit numbering study (15 MB, image browser necessary) to a file-sharing website.  After looking through it, I see that I misremembered some of the contents.  There is no explicit indication of committal to the director's office for a decision, but it is clear that the press coverage was described as unfavorable (though the postcard survey evidence was favorable) and that the Caltrans director had to answer a "Why are we wasting money?" letter which had been forwarded to him by the Governor's office.

Edit:  The report notes that the exit numbering, which featured the installation of 313 signs all in District 7, had been done by contract.  This means that construction plans should be available from District 7 Map Files (not that getting anything out of them is easier than pulling teeth).

[TheStranger]

Thank you!  I'm heading out for the morning/afternoon but will check it out later today and when I can - I never even knew the report existed until this thread, so I'm pretty excited.   If nothing else, it gives a glimpse of how CalTrans processes operated 39 years ago (postcard survey?  didn't know they did those!).