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[SignBridge]

This past week I drove the entire 47-mile length of the ACE for the first time. Generally good road, well patrolled by emergency service trucks, etc. Call boxes every mile. It seems like the SJTA who runs the road, is a generally good operation, similar to the NJ Turnpike Authority on the Turnpike and the Parkway.

So with this in mind, I was surprised at the mostly sub-standard big-green exit signage. Seems like they cheaped out on sign construction. The signs appear to be made of wood, a little smaller than normal, and use mostly upper-case lettering for place names instead of the usual mixed case. There were a few exceptions. One was the A.C. Int'l Airport Interchange which had standard good quality signs. So, anybody know whats up with SJTA's sign practices, and why they would be sub-standard in this one regard in an otherwise heads-up operation?

[NJRoadfan]

Signs at new interchanges tend to be up to par (Exit 41 Berlin Cross Keys Rd. and the AC Connecter), but the old stuff is awful. I'm surprised they haven't started a massive sign replacement contract. I wonder if the new MUTCD regs will force them to... and hopefully it doesn't involve Clearview.

[hbelkins]

Signs at new interchanges tend to be up to par (Exit 41 Berlin Cross Keys Rd. and the AC Connecter), but the old stuff is awful. I'm surprised they haven't started a massive sign replacement contract. I wonder if the new MUTCD regs will force them to... and hopefully it doesn't involve Clearview.

MUTCD doesn't apply to toll roads not run directly by the state DOTs, does it?

[SignBridge]

I believe the MUTCD applies to all roads in the country. However, at least one toll authority, (NJ Tpke) has blown off the Federal Hwy. Administration by pointing out that the road is self supporting with tolls, and since it receives no federal funding there was no way the Feds could penalize them for not complying with sign requirements. Seems to me I remember reading somewhere in these forums that the Feds then talked about witholding highway funds from NJDOT for the rest of the state if NJTP didn't comply. Anybody know what the final outcome was?

[DeaconG]

The original BGS's for the AC Expressway, IIRC, were white lettering on a black background...they changed later on.  I remember at the time it being very weird...

[agentsteel53]

The original BGS's for the AC Expressway, IIRC, were white lettering on a black background...they changed later on.  I remember at the time it being very weird...

when were these put up?  the NJ Turnpike signs from the opening were black too:



or as Steve would say: dark dark dark green. 

[SignBridge]

I think those original Turnpike signs were actually dark-green.

[Alex]

The original BGS's for the AC Expressway, IIRC, were white lettering on a black background...they changed later on.  I remember at the time it being very weird...

Or how about the opposite.  





It appears the set of signs in the background may be white on black.




From a video shot on December 30, 1995.

[agentsteel53]

[extremely awesome white signage]

From a video shot on December 30, 1995.

*promptly shits himself with glee*

dude that's the best thing ever, of all time.  I can't believe those signs survived into the 90s.

[SignBridge]

That's amazing. I had no idea that road was built with black & white color signs. So it seems that SJTA has a long history of using non-compliant signing. I wonder what their reasoning was. The MUTCD specifying green signs came out in 1958, well before the ACE was built in the 60's and several years after NY Thruway had erected their blue signs that lasted 'til the early 1990's.

Black/white signs were also used into the 1980's on the Long Island Parkways which banned commercial traffic, but there was no such ban on ACE right? Only on the Garden State Pkwy. which always had green signs, at least after 1964 when I first rode on it as a kid.

[NE2]

The Connecticut Turnpike also used white on blue.

[Ian]

And of course what's there now isn't anything to write home about:

[agentsteel53]

The MUTCD specifying green signs came out in 1958,

I did not know this.  The AASHO interstate manual came out in 1957 (and was immediately revised in 1958 - I think this is the one you are talking about), but specified green/white only for interstates.  

the 1961 MUTCD says that all guide signage is to be white/black, black/white, or green/white, with the specific requirement that interstate signage be green/white.

I know even the 1970 MUTCD allowed white/black small guide signs for non-freeway use, but I cannot remember offhand what it stated for freeway use.  A lot of states, I think, went to green/white for all overhead assemblies because they had interstates and it was easier to sign everything in one style.

the 1978 MUTCD is the first one, I think, which mandated green/white for all contexts.

[J N Winkler]

That's amazing. I had no idea that road was built with black & white color signs.

Black-on-white was actually the norm for expressways in New York built in the late 1940's/early 1950's.

So it seems that SJTA has a long history of using non-compliant signing. I wonder what their reasoning was. The MUTCD specifying green signs came out in 1958, well before the ACE was built in the 60's and several years after NY Thruway had erected their blue signs that lasted 'til the early 1990's.

Actually, the ACE signs shown in Alex's video captures comply with the 1961 MUTCD.  The requirement to use green background for freeway guide signs in general was not introduced until the 1971 MUTCD.  Prior to that, the standard colors for guide signs in general, including non-Interstate freeways, were white and black, with green background being optional.  It was the AASHO signing and marking manual for Interstates (not the MUTCD per se) which required green background for Interstate guide signs beginning in 1958, and initially white background and green foreground legend (later changed to white on blue) for services signing on Interstates.

Sign color and other aspects of sign design on the NYS Thruway were fixed in the early 1950's as a result of research the Thruway Authority carried out into different sign designs (reported in contemporary issues of Traffic Engineering).  The choice of white on blue may have had something to do with the fact that Bertram Tallamy, who was color-blind and struggled with white-on-green, was then head of the Thruway Authority.  By the time signing standards for Interstates were being developed in 1957-58, white on green emerged as the favored color scheme from the Holmes experiment (which was really more of a popularity contest than a scientific study).  Although Tallamy was by then head of BPR and thus had the ability to force through white on blue, he declined to override the consensus that had developed in favor of white on green.  To understand this it helps to remember that, 2009 MUTCD notwithstanding, FHWA and its predecessor agencies almost invariably prefer to exercise their hegemony over state DOTs through persuasion, sweet reason, and superior expertise rather than arbitrary fiat.

[NE2]

[agentsteel53]

[white signs with thin arrows]

those are getting extremely hard to come by these days in NYC.  I believe that sign is porcelain.  there is one white sign like that (side of the road install, not overhead, though) somewhere that Steve A took a photo of whose existence I verified in 2007, but I cannot remember where, apart from the fact that I think it's in south Brooklyn - Coney Island area maybe?

there are also a lot of old butterfly gantries which used to have signs like that, but while the gantries survive, the signs themselves have been replaced with green/white.  

[DeaconG]

The original BGS's for the AC Expressway, IIRC, were white lettering on a black background...they changed later on.  I remember at the time it being very weird...

Or how about the opposite. 






It appears the set of signs in the background may be white on black.




From a video shot on December 30, 1995.

Jeez, cut me some slack...I wasn't even 10 years old when the ACE was built! I quit going to the Joisey beaches when I was 17!

[NJRoadfan]

Kinda weird that those signs appeared on the NJDOT maintained North-South Freeway. The ACE is pretty bizarre in that there are no cardinal directions on any of their signs of trailblazers. Westbound onramps are signed "Phila." and/or "Camden", while eastbound ramps are signed "Atlantic City" and/or "Shore Pts." They also have "happy signs" that thank you for driving their safe road, suggest using the service area, and a Burma Shave style sequence of "Stay Alert","Stay Awake","Stay Alive" on random parts of the highway.

[newyorker478]

[white signs with thin arrows]

those are getting extremely hard to come by these days in NYC.  I believe that sign is porcelain.  there is one white sign like that (side of the road install, not overhead, though) somewhere that Steve A took a photo of whose existence I verified in 2007, but I cannot remember where, apart from the fact that I think it's in south Brooklyn - Coney Island area maybe?

there are also a lot of old butterfly gantries which used to have signs like that, but while the gantries survive, the signs themselves have been replaced with green/white. 

nope, it has to be going into the battery tunnel on the gowanus [pre-BQE]

[NE2]

nope, it has to be going into the battery tunnel on the gowanus [pre-BQE]

Huh?

[agentsteel53]

nope, it has to be going into the battery tunnel on the gowanus [pre-BQE]

Huh?

yeah, the sign in the 1956 photo is the Gowanus - the one I remember in 2007 is somewhere near Coney Island. 

[Steve]

I believe the MUTCD applies to all roads in the country. However, at least one toll authority, (NJ Tpke) has blown off the Federal Hwy. Administration by pointing out that the road is self supporting with tolls, and since it receives no federal funding there was no way the Feds could penalize them for not complying with sign requirements. Seems to me I remember reading somewhere in these forums that the Feds then talked about witholding highway funds from NJDOT for the rest of the state if NJTP didn't comply. Anybody know what the final outcome was?

Incorrect. The NJ Tpk will be following the MUTCD. The Port Authority is the one blowing them off.

[Steve]

The original BGS's for the AC Expressway, IIRC, were white lettering on a black background...they changed later on.  I remember at the time it being very weird...

when were these put up?  the NJ Turnpike signs from the opening were black too:



or as Steve would say: dark dark dark green. 

I have other sources confirming they're green, from within the Turnpike.

[agentsteel53]

I have other sources confirming they're green, from within the Turnpike.

were those signs ever repainted black?  or, is there a black undercoat underneath a green overcoat?  it looks like there are some spots where the paint is green, while the vast majority is black - implying that one coat has fallen off over the years, or has been repainted sloppily.

[SignBridge]

Thanks to everyone for all the updates and corrections. That Gowanus photo from the 1950's (?) is a gem. But, I believe that is the curving ramp from the BQE you can see in the background. And that "last exit" in the foreground probably is the BQE exit. Must have been a Sunday morning with such light traffic. LOL

My apologies for my comment re: the 1958 Manual. In the 1960's (as a teenager) I wrote to the NY Thruway Authority asking why they used blue signs instead of green. And got a very informative letter from them explaining that their blue signs were erected circa 1954. And that the "sign manual" specifying green was not published 'til 1958. I just assumed that meant the MUTCD. My error. I also apparently wrongly assumed that meant green was for all highways, not just Interstates. So I guess ACE was in compliance with their black-on-white signs after all.

In that same era I asked the Long Island State Park Commission about their white-on-black parkway signs and was told they "meet the Federal sign standards", which puzzled me re: the Thruway's comment about the 1958 "sign manual".  I appreciate you guys clearing up these mysteries for me 45 years later!

And yes, NYC was installing black-on-white signs in the 1950's on the then new Cross Bronx Expwy. and Long Island Expwy. Many of them lasted until a major NYC wide re-signing project in the early 1970's. And in the early 60's they installed black-on-"beige" modern style signs on the rebuilt Grand Central Pkwy. in Queens, I assume to distinguish it as a "trucks prohibited" highway. I don't think there are any left, though some of those entrance ramp signs lasted a very long time. Anybody got any old photos?