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Author Topic: I-95 gap in NJ  (Read 17751 times)

akotchi

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 12:09:37 PM »

At the rate things are going, US 1 between I-295 and I-287 will ultimately become (de facto) "I-95"....

 :spin:

Mike
It was signed that way (northbound, anyway) until the all-freeway route (I-295 and I-195 to Exit 7A) was signed in the field.
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 12:25:54 PM »

Bradley played his college ball at Princeton, which coincidentally was in the path of the planned route for I-95.

Sort of. Not meaning to split hairs, but I-95 would've passed (well enough, IMO) to the west of Princeton, through the Somerset Valley, but I guess that was close enough for the NIMBYs living in the Princeton area. So you're correct in the truest way.

There were also a lot of wealthy (read: influential) people living in the Somerset Valley who had moved there, over the years, precisely because there was no freeway in the area. Add them to the extremely vocal (and well-connected) NIMBYs in academe at Princeton… and you have the making of a long-term, multi-generational, astronomically costing, unnecessary pile of makework.

Otherwise known as an extremely complex solution to an relatively simple problem.

And fobbed off on another state no less.
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 03:48:55 PM »

Sort of. Not meaning to split hairs, but I-95 would've passed (well enough, IMO) to the west of Princeton, through the Somerset Valley, but I guess that was close enough for the NIMBYs living in the Princeton area. So you're correct in the truest way.
Thank you for the clarification.  I took a quick look at the map on this link: http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map1.html and used an expansive notion of "path" in my post.  I appreciate your local knowledge on the subject. 

Also thank you for sharing your "insider's view" of the overall years-long political process.  Great posts!  It must have been simultaneously fascinating and maddening.
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 07:56:17 PM »

Good ol' Bill Bradley. He was a really good basketball player. Not so good of a senator.

Do you need to make gratuitous remarks about every Democrat that's mentioned here?
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2011, 07:58:30 PM »

Bradley played his college ball at Princeton, which coincidentally was in the path of the planned route for I-95.

Sort of. Not meaning to split hairs, but I-95 would've passed (well enough, IMO) to the west of Princeton, through the Somerset Valley, but I guess that was close enough for the NIMBYs living in the Princeton area. So you're correct in the truest way.

There were also a lot of wealthy (read: influential) people living in the Somerset Valley who had moved there, over the years, precisely because there was no freeway in the area. Add them to the extremely vocal (and well-connected) NIMBYs in academe at Princeton… and you have the making of a long-term, multi-generational, astronomically costing, unnecessary pile of makework.

Otherwise known as an extremely complex solution to an relatively simple problem.

And fobbed off on another state no less.

As I remember it, it was Hopewell and Montgomery townships that didn't want 95; Hillsborough (and I think Franklin) did.  Didn't remember Bradley being involved (not that I'm doubting you - I just don't remember).  And Princeton wasn't on the route.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 08:00:37 PM by Michael in Philly »
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Don'tKnowYet

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2011, 08:46:23 PM »

correct about all 4 towns. hopewell and Montgomery were against it. the other two would have been OK with it. Princeton had little, if not nothing, to do with it
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2011, 09:06:17 PM »

correct about all 4 towns. hopewell and Montgomery were against it. the other two would have been OK with it. Princeton had little, if not nothing, to do with it
Also to you thanks for the local knowledge.  In looking at a map of the Preferred Alternatives, it looks like the routes would have passed within two to four miles of the closest point of the Princeton limits: http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map4.html
I should have said "close to" instead of "in the path of".  I live in metro Atlanta, where a driving distance of five miles is relatively insignificant; I used my daily experience as a reference point.

It is very interesting to hear which communities were for it and which were against it.  Thanks again.
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2011, 09:28:59 PM »

Hopewell and Montgomery were (Hopewell still is) about as rural as anything in central New Jersey gets these days, and a lot of their inhabitants probably want to keep it that way.  (One claim to fame of Hopewell is that Charles Lindbergh and his wife lived there at the time their baby was kidnapped, in the O.J. Simpson case of the 1930s.)  We're talking people who like seclusion and can afford to get their way.  Hillsborough was much more developed and would probably have loved a freeway to relieve US 206.  If we can forgive a brief detour into "fictional highways," it might have made sense to build the piece from 206 to I-287 and call it I-187.

And since we're talking about a state with municipalities covering every inch of its territory, Princeton may only have been a few miles off the route, but that means they had no say one way or the other:  it wasn't on their turf.
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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2011, 09:40:24 PM »

Good ol' Bill Bradley. He was a really good basketball player. Not so good of a senator.

Do you need to make gratuitous remarks about every Democrat that's mentioned here?

Yes he does.
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2011, 10:47:46 PM »

Princeton may only have been a few miles off the route, but that means they had no say one way or the other:  it wasn't on their turf.
I freely admit that my self-reference as to distance does not fit this area.  That said, the reason it wasn't on Princeton's turf circa 1980 is that the Princeton NIMBYs had the proposed route shifted westward circa 1965.  Here is the link to the first map I posted:  http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map1.html
Relevant commentary beneath the map is as follows:

"The 'fatal flaw' of this route is clearly visible here:  it came very close to Princeton Boro and crossed well into Princeton Township.  The Princeton's were the source of the outward-spiralling wave of protest against the Somerset Freeway (I-95) which would eventually result in its cancellation."

By 1980, the Princeton NIMBYs, as the "source" of protest against I-95, had won the first victory against the Somerset Freeway - get it moved from their backyard to the backyard of Hopewell, etc.  As a result, they appear to me to have been the primary force in getting the the routes of the Preferred Alternatives moved westward and had a great deal of say in the matter.

I also suspect, going by qguy's posts, that there were elements in Princeton circa 1980 who worked to kill the Somerset Freeway altogether in order to REALLY get it out of their backyard.
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2011, 11:00:32 PM »

As I remember it, it was Hopewell and Montgomery townships that didn't want 95; Hillsborough (and I think Franklin) did.

Correct. Despite my verbose post, I did oversimplify to an extent. Or I would've needed chapter headings.

Didn't remember Bradley being involved... . 

Actually Sen. Bradley was instrumental in getting the legislation introduced and passed.

And Princeton wasn't on the route.

Princeton wasn't on the route, but anti-progress types--and every college campus has them, both on staff and in the student body--most definitely added their voices of opposition, both publicly and behind the scenes.
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2011, 11:02:53 PM »

Princeton may only have been a few miles off the route, but that means they had no say one way or the other:  it wasn't on their turf.
I freely admit that my self-reference as to distance does not fit this area.  That said, the reason it wasn't on Princeton's turf circa 1980 is that the Princeton NIMBYs had the proposed route shifted westward circa 1965.  Here is the link to the first map I posted:  http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map1.html
Relevant commentary beneath the map is as follows:

"The 'fatal flaw' of this route is clearly visible here:  it came very close to Princeton Boro and crossed well into Princeton Township.  The Princeton's were the source of the outward-spiralling wave of protest against the Somerset Freeway (I-95) which would eventually result in its cancellation."

By 1980, the Princeton NIMBYs, as the "source" of protest against I-95, had won the first victory against the Somerset Freeway - get it moved from their backyard to the backyard of Hopewell, etc.  As a result, they appear to me to have been the primary force in getting the the routes of the Preferred Alternatives moved westward and had a great deal of say in the matter.

I also suspect, going by qguy's posts, that there were elements in Princeton circa 1980 who worked to kill the Somerset Freeway altogether in order to REALLY get it out of their backyard.


What *he* said.
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2011, 11:18:20 PM »

What *he* said.
I take it that I fell prey to believing what I read on the internet.  Can you suggest an authoritative primary source on the evolution of the routes of the Somerset Freeway?  It's a fascinating story.
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2011, 11:46:35 PM »

I take it that I fell prey to believing what I read on the internet.  Can you suggest an authoritative primary source on the evolution of the routes of the Somerset Freeway?  It's a fascinating story.

Try the Congressional record, FHWA records, NJ state archives (for NJDOT records; if NJDOT is like PennDOT, their own records go back only so far), PA state archive, things like that. Others may have other (better?) ideas.
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Roadman66

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2011, 01:32:41 AM »

Once I-95 becomes I-195 in NJ past Laurence Township, will exit 60 become redesigned? Will high speed ramps be built, instead of the current 35 mph ramps, to connect the future I-195 designation with the current one?

I also think I figured out the exit renumbering, milage based of course. All of the exits, from Ewing to Belmar will be renumbered. Start with exit 1 on the current I-95 in Ewing, and head up to 8, then exit 67 on 295 (future 195) will be exit 9, exit 65 will be 11 A-B, etc.....then onto the current 195 freeway, exit 1 will become exit 17, then....jumping to exit 16 which is Six Flags, this will be future exit 32 A-B, etc, all the way to exit 52, which is the GSP (current exit 36 in Wall Twp).

Post Merge: October 18, 2011, 06:54:52 PM
Also, the northern terminus for 295 at exit 60...first I must say I hate the sign that has the control city of Princeton. Here is a pic: http://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey200/i-295_nb_exit_060_07.jpg

I-295 does not really travel to Princeton. I mean not directly. It kind of avoids it. A better location would be Ewing or Lawrenceville. Anyway, these signs will probably be replaced. I'm guessing it will read End I-295, begin I-195 West.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 06:54:52 PM by Steve »
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2011, 02:02:46 AM »

Princeton may only have been a few miles off the route, but that means they had no say one way or the other:  it wasn't on their turf.
I freely admit that my self-reference as to distance does not fit this area.  That said, the reason it wasn't on Princeton's turf circa 1980 is that the Princeton NIMBYs had the proposed route shifted westward circa 1965.  Here is the link to the first map I posted:  http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map1.html
Relevant commentary beneath the map is as follows:

"The 'fatal flaw' of this route is clearly visible here:  it came very close to Princeton Boro and crossed well into Princeton Township.  The Princeton's were the source of the outward-spiralling wave of protest against the Somerset Freeway (I-95) which would eventually result in its cancellation."

By 1980, the Princeton NIMBYs, as the "source" of protest against I-95, had won the first victory against the Somerset Freeway - get it moved from their backyard to the backyard of Hopewell, etc.  As a result, they appear to me to have been the primary force in getting the the routes of the Preferred Alternatives moved westward and had a great deal of say in the matter.

I also suspect, going by qguy's posts, that there were elements in Princeton circa 1980 who worked to kill the Somerset Freeway altogether in order to REALLY get it out of their backyard.

I was born in 1964, and grew up a bit to the northeast of this area, so my memories of all this go back to when the controversy about, and ultimate killing of, the Hopewell/Montgomery routing was in the news in the early '80s.  Didn't know there was an earlier Princeton routing.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 09:39:37 AM by Michael in Philly »
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2011, 07:42:27 AM »

What *he* said.
I take it that I fell prey to believing what I read on the internet.  Can you suggest an authoritative primary source on the evolution of the routes of the Somerset Freeway?  It's a fascinating story.
Try the Congressional record, FHWA records, NJ state archives (for NJDOT records; if NJDOT is like PennDOT, their own records go back only so far), PA state archive, things like that. Others may have other (better?) ideas.
Thanks.  Just so I don't reinvent the wheel, here is a link to a page on the website I referenced which provides an overview of the proposed I-95 routes: http://www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap_Map0.html

First, according to this page, the "Somerset Freeway" was first proposed in 1972 and the 1964 proposal to which I provided a link was a remnant of a "North Jersey Expressway" proposal (I apparently mistakenly referred to this as a "Somerset Freeway" proposal).  Are you suggesting that a "North Jersey Expressway" proposal did not exist circa 1964?

Also, it looks like the initial proposed route for a pre-interstate system north Jersey freeway, circa 1954, ("Trenton-New Brunswick Expressway") was routed east of Princeton.  Is this also factually inaccurate?

Apologies, but I am sincerely interested in the history of the proposed routings (I lived in Philadelphia 1989-1991 and spent many weekends driving around exploring and trying to figure out a way to "close the gap").  Your first post quoted above is somewhat cryptic; are you alleging that (a) the website's renderings of the proposed routings are factually inaccurate, (b) the website's characterizations of opposition to I-95 are inaccurate, or (c) both?  This will help me focus my research.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 09:16:31 AM by Grzrd »
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2011, 09:21:01 AM »

Raymond Marton's site is very good, even if the most recent info is becoming a little dated. His pages on the I-95 gap and solution start here:
www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap.html

He researched a *ton* of info for that history. (I was one of the contributors; therefore it must be good.  :-D )

The long and short of it is that NIMBYs in central NJ fought the construction of I-95 no matter *where* it was proposed to be built. The state proposed it one place—they fought it. The state said, "OK then, howzabout over here?"—they fought it. The state proposed, "Perhaps in this location then?"—"Nope, we're a-gin' it!" Enough vocal opposition just didn't want it anywhere, no matter what. They were only going to be satisfied with complete abandonment.

And in the end, that is what they got.

It has been much noted among the roadgeek population that there is no direct all-highway connection between New York City and Philadelphia. What doesn't get noticed as much is that direct and all-highway or not, there is not—and even when the I-95/PATP connection is built there will not be—an alternate highway route between the two largest cities on the east coast. The NJTP is and will be the only highway route between the two.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 09:23:23 AM by qguy »
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Grzrd

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2011, 09:27:56 AM »

Raymond Marton's site is very good .. He researched a *ton* of info for that history. (I was one of the contributors; therefore it must be good.  :-D )
Thanks for affirming the quality of the website. You just saved me a *ton* of time.  :-D
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2011, 09:44:00 AM »

Raymond Marton's site is very good, even if the most recent info is becoming a little dated. His pages on the I-95 gap and solution start here:
www.njfreeways.com/Interstate_95_Gap.html

He researched a *ton* of info for that history. (I was one of the contributors; therefore it must be good.  :-D )

The long and short of it is that NIMBYs in central NJ fought the construction of I-95 no matter *where* it was proposed to be built. The state proposed it one place—they fought it. The state said, "OK then, howzabout over here?"—they fought it. The state proposed, "Perhaps in this location then?"—"Nope, we're a-gin' it!" Enough vocal opposition just didn't want it anywhere, no matter what. They were only going to be satisfied with complete abandonment.

And in the end, that is what they got.

It has been much noted among the roadgeek population that there is no direct all-highway connection between New York City and Philadelphia. What doesn't get noticed as much is that direct and all-highway or not, there is not—and even when the I-95/PATP connection is built there will not be—an alternate highway route between the two largest cities on the east coast. The NJTP is and will be the only highway route between the two.

Heck, it's been much noted among the general public, at least in Philadelphia, that there's no direct route to New York.  Which is why I feel so strongly about the oh-just-shift-the-95-designation-to-the-Turnpike option.  That would just make everyone feel they'd solved the problem - everyone in New York and Washington, that is.
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2011, 09:57:58 AM »

Thanks for affirming the quality of the website. You just saved me a *ton* of time.  :-D

My contribution (although crucial :-P) was actually rather small. Which reminds me. If you contacted him, Raymond would likely be able to point you in more than a few good directions for research of your own. He did a lot of primary research, 99% of which I have only the vaguest idea from whence he dug it.

Heck, it's been much noted among the general public, at least in Philadelphia, that there's no direct route to New York.  Which is why I feel so strongly about the oh-just-shift-the-95-designation-to-the-Turnpike option.  That would just make everyone feel they'd solved the problem - everyone in New York and Washington, that is.

Correct. Re-routing I-95 along the entire length of the PATP would in no way solve the two underlying problems of having no direct connection and no alternate route between NYC and Phila. It would only make people *think* they were solved.

About the only advantage to the re-routed designation option that I can see (from an I-95/PATP connection standpoint) is that it would allow the connection to be a slower-speed configuration, probably the double-trumpet design originally intended so long ago.
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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2011, 10:22:34 AM »

Do you need to make gratuitous remarks about every Democrat that's mentioned here?

Yes he does.

Well, somebody's got to.  :-D
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qguy

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2011, 10:55:12 AM »

Do you need to make gratuitous remarks about every Democrat that's mentioned here?

Yes he does.

Well, somebody's got to.  :-D

Works for me.
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Michael in Philly

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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2011, 11:01:02 AM »

Do you need to make gratuitous remarks about every Democrat that's mentioned here?

Yes he does.

Well, somebody's got to.  :-D

Please.  There are plenty of places to argue politics.  Criticizing LaHood's or Bradley's policies is fine; claiming the ex-ambassador to China has "no principles" because - gasp! - he took a job in a Democrat's administration, besides being offensive to tens of millions of your fellow citizens (which we are, whatever Michelle Bachman's definition of "American" may be), is off-topic and can be done elsewhere.  I for one don't come to this forum expecting that sort of crap (and it would be true in the other direction, of course); sometimes I'm actually avoiding politics, or trying to, because I'm in a sick-of-it phase.
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Re: I-95 gap in NJ
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2011, 11:08:27 AM »

I think it's fair to make gratuitous remarks about every politician.  if they didn't want the criticism, they should never have left the human race.
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