http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20140922/NEWS10/140929990/indiana-toll-road-operator-files-chapter-11
The operators of the Indiana Toll Road, ITR Concession Co., have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. For what it's worth, traffic volumes along the Indiana Toll Road have dropped a precipitous 42 percent in the past eight years.
want more customers? increase speed limits.
42 percent in the last eight years is a surprising drop. Is this still fallout from the recession? I'd be curious if other nearby toll operations -- notably the Ohio Turnpike -- are faced with similiar traffic volume changes. This can't be limited to Indiana.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
want more customers? increase speed limits.
It's already 70 across the entire state, and I have a hard time seeing how increasing it will attract any more drivers. The cost of the tolls and the condition of the road are the main factors in decreased usage.
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who isn't using the road now but would if the speed limit got increased to 75 or 80, especially since you very rarely get pulled over for going 80 as it is.
"eliminate" would be the word I'd go for, then.
I'd pay at least once to go 140.
See http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/toll-road-company-to-declare-bankruptcy-monday/article_2af1fdf2-45c1-5e50-bd70-3ad177a866a1.html (discussed in the "Indiana notes" thread). The article puts part of the blame on the recession, but also to the completion of construction on the Dan Ryan Expressway, which had bumped up traffic volumes on the west end of the Toll Road.
I wouldn't be surprised if customer dissatisfaction with the toll road is also a factor. I think the Toll Road's service plazas went downhill under private operation (both cleanliness of the facilities, and high gas prices at the east end of the road), which makes me more likely to seek alternatives when I'm out that way. I don't feel the same way about the Ohio Turnpike.
A speed limit increase to 75 or 80 could help (and would be a good thing in any case). It would not overcome a 42% drop in traffic volume, but could help overcome customer resistance to toll increases and complaints about quality of service.
The travel plazas on the ITR, in general, are of the lowest overall quality compared to those on any other toll road i've driven. Travel Plaza 3 doesn't even have full handicap facilities and no signs advising travelers beforehand that it doesn't. We've never encountered one like that anywhere else.
Quote from: DanTheMan414 on September 24, 2014, 03:22:43 PM
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20140922/NEWS10/140929990/indiana-toll-road-operator-files-chapter-11
The operators of the Indiana Toll Road, ITR Concession Co., have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. For what it's worth, traffic volumes along the Indiana Toll Road have dropped a precipitous 42 percent in the past eight years.
Gee, I wonder why????????????
Oh yeah, could it be the higher tolls plus the shitty condition of the actual road itself? If they stopped lining shareholder pockets and actually invested in the road, they might see some improvement. Having driven the Toll Road yesterday (East Point to I-65), the entire road needs a good repaving as well as ORT gantries at both East Point and Willow Creek. Better signage might help as well. It's still the shitty signage that InDOT left the operator with.
Another success story for Republican patronage - I mean - privatization. Not!
It's unfortunate, because years ago the Indiana Toll Road IMO was one of the best toll facilities in the country.
Just goes to show that privatization of transportation facilities isn't the panacea that some politicians may think it is.
One of the aspects of the Indiana Toll Road I like least are the three toll plazas on the mainline that require you to stop or slow to 5 mph. The plaza in Portage, in particular, frequently has long backups.
There's no technological reason why they couldn't put open-road tolling in place, and there's more than sufficient land area at all three plazas to implement it.
I have to drive from Wisconsin to Baltimore in a couple of weeks. When I made the same trip earlier this year, I took the ITR, and the OH and PA Turnpikes.
This time I am taking I-65, I-70, I-79 and I-68. 26 miles longer but no tolls. I don't think I am alone in looking at other options.
Quote from: oscar on September 24, 2014, 04:46:49 PM
See http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/toll-road-company-to-declare-bankruptcy-monday/article_2af1fdf2-45c1-5e50-bd70-3ad177a866a1.html (discussed in the "Indiana notes" thread). The article puts part of the blame on the recession, but also to the completion of construction on the Dan Ryan Expressway, which had bumped up traffic volumes on the west end of the Toll Road.
I wonder if the high tolls on the Chicago Skyway ($4 if IIRC) might also discourage traffic on the west end that would otherwise use the Toll Road over the Borman. Though I thought the same company controlled both facilities.
Quote from: roadman on September 24, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Another success story for Republican patronage - I mean - privatization. Not!
Democrats have done the same thing, see below.
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 24, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
Quote from: oscar on September 24, 2014, 04:46:49 PM
See http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/toll-road-company-to-declare-bankruptcy-monday/article_2af1fdf2-45c1-5e50-bd70-3ad177a866a1.html (discussed in the "Indiana notes" thread). The article puts part of the blame on the recession, but also to the completion of construction on the Dan Ryan Expressway, which had bumped up traffic volumes on the west end of the Toll Road.
I wonder if the high tolls on the Chicago Skyway ($4 if IIRC) might also discourage traffic on the west end that would otherwise use the Toll Road over the Borman. Though I thought the same company controlled both facilities.
No shit. They own both the Skyway (sold off by Democrat Rich Daley) and the Toll Road (sold off by Republican Mitch Daniels). That's a major part of the problem. The Skyway tolls are $4 + the Toll Road tolls versus the free Borman and Calumet Expressways.
Hence,
Quote from: froggie on September 24, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
Just goes to show that privatization of transportation facilities isn't the panacea that some politicians may think it is.
Exactly. That and parking meters. You can privatize garbage collection as you can have several bidders for a contract for 5 years or so, but privatizing a road for 50-99 years is nuts. The garbage collectors must live up to some sort of service to be in the running for the next contract. What do the private road operators have to do? Jack shit, and it shows on the Toll Road.
This actually ended up being a pretty good deal for Indiana. They got all that money for Major Moves and they may end up with control of the toll road again.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 24, 2014, 10:49:56 PM
This actually ended up being a pretty good deal for Indiana. They got all that money for Major Moves and they may end up with control of the toll road again.
Exactly--there was really very little downside for the state, all things considered. The condition of the road is noticeably worse today than it was 10 years ago though--and as pointed out above, the eastern service plaza gas stations are ripoffs. I refuse to patronize them and thus don't even stop at those plazas when I otherwise might. Bad for business and the other vendors at those plazas.
If INDOT takes over the road again, hopefully the road will be improved. It's rough and shoddy looking right now.
I think it's time for the state to take it back.
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 24, 2014, 08:55:09 PM
There's no technological reason why they couldn't put open-road tolling in place, and there's more than sufficient land area at all three plazas to implement it.
It does cost money though. I think ORT is starting to be viewed as an evolutionary dead end with full conversion to AET being cheaper. The Thruway Authority, for example, has halted their plans to convert all the barriers to ORT and is now converting the downstate barriers to AET. The upstate barriers will just sit indefinitely, presumably while NYSTA tries to figure out how to fire all the toll collectors without getting the union mad. And that's an agency that has incentive to get traffic moving. A private company's only incentive is profit. Why would they spend the money? They wouldn't save anything because there are EZ-Pass only lanes now, and it's not likely a significant amount of people are saying "I'd use the road if only it had ORT".
The negative aspect with the state taking it back over is that they'd have to sink money into getting the Toll Road condition back to an acceptable level, not to mention pay for ongoing maintenance. If they haven't used all their Major Moves money, then they'll have something for the former. If they have, then what are they going to shift or drop in order to fix the Toll Road?
I do not know if the ITR has a unionized staff when the state leased out the road, but if Indiana resumes control, could they keep on the lower cost non-union staff? Also, was there not minimum maintenance standards set for the lease? If so, why were they not enforced? I wonder how much deferred maintenance there is and how fast existing toll revenue would cover it.
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2014, 01:02:02 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 24, 2014, 08:55:09 PM
There's no technological reason why they couldn't put open-road tolling in place, and there's more than sufficient land area at all three plazas to implement it.
It does cost money though. I think ORT is starting to be viewed as an evolutionary dead end with full conversion to AET being cheaper. The Thruway Authority, for example, has halted their plans to convert all the barriers to ORT and is now converting the downstate barriers to AET. The upstate barriers will just sit indefinitely, presumably while NYSTA tries to figure out how to fire all the toll collectors without getting the union mad. And that's an agency that has incentive to get traffic moving. A private company's only incentive is profit. Why would they spend the money? They wouldn't save anything because there are EZ-Pass only lanes now, and it's not likely a significant amount of people are saying "I'd use the road if only it had ORT".
What is AET?
All Electronic Tolling.
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on September 25, 2014, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2014, 01:02:02 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 24, 2014, 08:55:09 PM
There's no technological reason why they couldn't put open-road tolling in place, and there's more than sufficient land area at all three plazas to implement it.
It does cost money though. I think ORT is starting to be viewed as an evolutionary dead end with full conversion to AET being cheaper. The Thruway Authority, for example, has halted their plans to convert all the barriers to ORT and is now converting the downstate barriers to AET. The upstate barriers will just sit indefinitely, presumably while NYSTA tries to figure out how to fire all the toll collectors without getting the union mad. And that's an agency that has incentive to get traffic moving. A private company's only incentive is profit. Why would they spend the money? They wouldn't save anything because there are EZ-Pass only lanes now, and it's not likely a significant amount of people are saying "I'd use the road if only it had ORT".
What is AET?
And where can the average reader find the best explanation of the difference?
If the state takes it back, could the Illiana then be extended up to the I-94?
Quote from: rte66man on September 25, 2014, 06:44:00 PM
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on September 25, 2014, 02:29:10 PM
What is AET?
And where can the average reader find the best explanation of the difference?
Short answer is there are no toll booths, so you can't pay cash. If you doesn't have the right transponder (for the Indiana Toll Road, any E-ZPass transponder will do), the toll agency has to video your license plate and bill you by mail (or for some toll roads that require a compatible transponder, send you a violation notice assessing a hefty fine; either way, sometimes you can pay the toll online to minimize service charges or head off fines). Notable examples of AET are the 407 ETR in Toronto, the ICC in Maryland, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the 495 express lanes in Virginia, but there are others in NY, CA, FL, and TX at least.
We've had at least two threads lately, about the issues AET creates for rental car drivers.
Quote from: froggie on September 25, 2014, 01:19:28 PM
The negative aspect with the state taking it back over is that they'd have to sink money into getting the Toll Road condition back to an acceptable level, not to mention pay for ongoing maintenance. If they haven't used all their Major Moves money, then they'll have something for the former. If they have, then what are they going to shift or drop in order to fix the Toll Road?
Isn't that what, well, the tolls are for? Issue bonds to pay for the capital improvement and pay them back with the toll revenue + whatever you're raking in from service plaza concessions.
At least Indiana was smart and it was the private investors who took the bath, unlike the idiotic PPPs in Virginia.
Quote from: lordsutch on September 26, 2014, 12:40:20 AM
At least Indiana was smart and it was the private investors who took the bath, unlike the idiotic PPPs in Virginia.
Huh? It seems like the PPP's in VA, at least the Beltway HOT's, resulted in massive new infrastructure improvements, including lanes (with their own exits) that didn't exist prior, and a lot of reconstruction of the "free" portion as well (I've read people praising an interchange redesign with I-66).
Have the "private investors" done similar massive infrastructure improvements to the ITR since taking it over? I don't recall reading anything indicating they have (I've never been to the State of Indiana), and people seem to now be complaining over the condition of the highway.
I don't claim to know how any of the deals some of these various states have made with private entities will work out over the LONG haul, I'm just wondering how the private investors in Indiana have taken a "bath", opposed to the "idiotic" PPP's in VA.
I just wonder how much traffic on the Indiana Toll Road is in-state traffic vs. out-of-state or long-distance traffic. If the majority of the traffic is out-of-staters, Indiana doesn't really have an incentive to do a lot of improvements to the road, since those out-of-staters don't vote in Indiana.
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 26, 2014, 02:38:42 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on September 26, 2014, 12:40:20 AM
At least Indiana was smart and it was the private investors who took the bath, unlike the idiotic PPPs in Virginia.
Huh? It seems like the PPP's in VA, at least the Beltway HOT's, resulted in massive new infrastructure improvements, including lanes (with their own exits) that didn't exist prior, and a lot of reconstruction of the "free" portion as well (I've read people praising an interchange redesign with I-66).
Have the "private investors" done similar massive infrastructure improvements to the ITR since taking it over? I don't recall reading anything indicating they have (I've never been to the State of Indiana), and people seem to now be complaining over the condition of the highway.
I don't claim to know how any of the deals some of these various states have made with private entities will work out over the LONG haul, I'm just wondering how the private investors in Indiana have taken a "bath", opposed to the "idiotic" PPP's in VA.
This was a reference to the construction of VA 895 and the money-pit US 460 studies, both of which were structured in ways that the state (= taxpayer) has been on the hook for at least some of the losses; in the case of US 460 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/study-ramps-up-cost-of-stalled-highway-in-virginia/2014/09/22/e4128860-429d-11e4-b437-1a7368204804_story.html), the state's out nearly $300 million and there isn't even an inch of pavement and there probably never will be. Here's how it happened. (http://articles.dailypress.com/2014-05-17/news/dp-nws-street-smart-20140517_1_460-project-transportation-secretary-suffolk-and-petersburg)
At least in the ITR situation it's the creditors and shareholders that will ultimately have to pay. The jury's still out as you say on the beltway HOT lanes.
Quote from: roadman on September 24, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
It's unfortunate, because years ago the Indiana Toll Road IMO was one of the best toll facilities in the country.
In the 1980's, the ITR had the smoothest pavement I had ever driven on - anywhere.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 24, 2014, 04:06:01 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
want more customers? increase speed limits.
It's already 70 across the entire state, and I have a hard time seeing how increasing it will attract any more drivers. The cost of the tolls and the condition of the road are the main factors in decreased usage.
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who isn't using the road now but would if the speed limit got increased to 75 or 80, especially since you very rarely get pulled over for going 80 as it is.
I have not driven the ITR since the 1980's, but when I did (
and the pavement was in perfect condition then), it seemed to be an idea candidate for a speed limit of 80 MPH.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 24, 2014, 04:06:01 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
want more customers? increase speed limits.
It's already 70 across the entire state, and I have a hard time seeing how increasing it will attract any more drivers. The cost of the tolls and the condition of the road are the main factors in decreased usage.
You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who isn't using the road now but would if the speed limit got increased to 75 or 80, especially since you very rarely get pulled over for going 80 as it is.
I have not driven the ITR since the 1980's, but when I did (and the pavement was in perfect condition then), it seemed to be an idea candidate for a speed limit of 80 MPH.
I just drove it Tuesday. It needs work - badly.
Quote from: lordsutchQuote from: froggie
The negative aspect with the state taking it back over is that they'd have to sink money into getting the Toll Road condition back to an acceptable level, not to mention pay for ongoing maintenance. If they haven't used all their Major Moves money, then they'll have something for the former. If they have, then what are they going to shift or drop in order to fix the Toll Road?
Isn't that what, well, the tolls are for? Issue bonds to pay for the capital improvement and pay them back with the toll revenue + whatever you're raking in from service plaza concessions.
Theoretically, yes. But then you bump into the question of does INDOT have enough bond capacity to be able to issue these bonds, or did they tap themselves out due to Major Moves?
Quote from: Brandon on September 27, 2014, 12:34:14 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
I have not driven the ITR since the 1980's, but when I did (and the pavement was in perfect condition then), it seemed to be an idea candidate for a speed limit of 80 MPH.
I just drove it Tuesday. It needs work - badly.
Agreed. It's been in pretty sketchy condition for a number of years, including before the lease with ITR Concession Co. Between Valparaiso and Portage, it's also in need of widening to 3 lanes in each direction.
The sad thing is, east of Valparaiso, it's generally a less stressful drive than I-94 through Michigan. And at $5 a trip, it's not a hardship for me to choose the Toll Road over I-94. But the road condition is actually BETTER on toll-free I-94, and there's less congestion through Indiana. ITR is not doing a good job making the Toll Road worth the premium to drive.
I get that the money hasn't been there to make investments. I get that. But with a toll road, you've gotta get traffic through the toll booths; it's the only way the investors can win at this game. There's a lot of toll revenue out there for the ITR to snatch up if they used long-term thinking. However, precious little of that is in evidence here.
It'd almost be worse if Indiana got the road back early. They've used their chunk of change to make useful upgrades to their highways, but in 20 years the maintenance bill is going to come in, and there's no answer on how to pay for it.
The thing is that Indiana doesn't have to take it over. And if they do, they can at a bargain basement price. If they do that, they can bond out future toll proceeds to make improvements to the road. Indiana could come out looking like roses with this.
Why can't Indiana just find another more responsible company to take care of the road? :confused:
Quote from: billtm on September 27, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Why can't Indiana just find another more responsible company to take care of the road? :confused:
The problem is that Indiana doesn't legally own it. It isn't their decision to make.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 27, 2014, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: billtm on September 27, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Why can't Indiana just find another more responsible company to take care of the road? :confused:
The problem is that Indiana doesn't legally own it. It isn't their decision to make.
Wrong! They DO own it. What is in place is a lease, and if there is a default on the operator's end, Indiana gets back control and can choose another operator if they want.
Quote from: jnewkirk77 on September 28, 2014, 08:58:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 27, 2014, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: billtm on September 27, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Why can't Indiana just find another more responsible company to take care of the road? :confused:
The problem is that Indiana doesn't legally own it. It isn't their decision to make.
Wrong! They DO own it. What is in place is a lease, and if there is a default on the operator's end, Indiana gets back control and can choose another operator if they want.
Only if there is a default on the operator's obligations to the state -- but the main obligation (to give the state a lot of money up-front in exchange for the lease) has already been fulfilled. A default on obligations to bondholders would not necessarily give the state a right to repossess, so long as the operator continues to operate the toll road or transfers operation to some other company acceptable under the lease.
Poor maintenance and other quality issues could be a default on obligations to the state, if the lease so provided. My hunch is that the state's main interest was in getting more money to spend on other roads, and placed less priority to holding the operator to more than bare minimum quality standards (especially if toll road travelers are mainly out-of-state). The lease perhaps could have been better structured to promote quality, but that seems not to be what this lease was about.
Quote from: jnewkirk77 on September 28, 2014, 08:58:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 27, 2014, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: billtm on September 27, 2014, 09:42:44 PM
Why can't Indiana just find another more responsible company to take care of the road? :confused:
The problem is that Indiana doesn't legally own it. It isn't their decision to make.
Wrong! They DO own it. What is in place is a lease, and if there is a default on the operator's end, Indiana gets back control and can choose another operator if they want.
You are correct. Calm down.
I got the same distinct impression as Oscar...that the state's primary motivation was to get the money, which they've now received and spent.
The entire lease agreement is located on the Indiana Finance Authority's website, here:
https://secure.in.gov/ifa/2328.htm (https://secure.in.gov/ifa/2328.htm)
I do not necessarily enjoy or have the time to read 80 pages of legalese, but skimming the document there are standards for minimum level of service, and a requirement for a yearly check, as well as several widening projects to be completed by 2008. I do not, however, see any minimum smoothness requirements, and it seems that the capital improvements portion of the agreement hasn't been updated since end of 2005. There were tables included in the bid showing $X of capital improvements within 3, 25, and 75 years, so presumably they included typical pavement maintenance in their bid.
Isn't I-90 along the Indiana Toll Road? If I'm going from Boston and New York to Chicago, I imagine I'd be on the Indiana Toll Road. How does it NOT have enough traffic?
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 30, 2014, 05:53:53 AM
Isn't I-90 along the Indiana Toll Road? If I'm going from Boston and New York to Chicago, I imagine I'd be on the Indiana Toll Road. How does it NOT have enough traffic?
Because my guess is that the New York to Chicago (and beyond) traffic makes up a small percentage of those who could use the ITR. That regional traffic, and traffic that are heading more southeast, use other options.
INDOT doesn't have any counts more recent than 2011, but based on that year, the ITR never goes above 36,700 vpd anywhere, with all of the eastern section (east of US 131/IN 13) less than 20,000 vpd. In short, not enough traffic to cover the debt they took on to pay the state and acquire the operating rights/revenue.
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/auditor-candidate-wants-state-action-on-toll-road-bankruptcy/article_32b074a9-ea7f-556a-aa1e-331218b50425.html
Probably just election season talk, but...
QuoteThe Democratic candidate for state auditor is demanding Attorney General Greg Zoeller directly intervene in the Indiana Toll Road bankruptcy case to protect the state's financial interests.
Mike Claytor, a certified public accountant from Carmel, said Tuesday that federal bankruptcy courts modify contacts and lease agreements all the time, and warned Indiana could be forced to repay some of the $3.8 billion it received when the state leased the Toll Road in 2006 to the now-bankrupt private operator.
"Our state administration took the $3.8 billion payment, a 75-year value of the Toll Road, and spent it all in eight years," Claytor said. "If the bankruptcy court starts asking for some of that money back, we might have to sell I-69 in order to buy the Toll Road out of bankruptcy."
Claytor said since the Republican attorney general is willing to go to court repeatedly to prevent gay Hoosiers from getting married, he ought to be similarly willing to intervene in the Toll Road case with billions of dollars at stake.
A Zoeller spokesman did not return a request for comment.
Kendra York, director of the Indiana Finance Authority, told state lawmakers last week her agency is closely monitoring the bankruptcy case filed Sept. 21 by the Indiana Toll Road Concession Co., but she is certain the 2006 lease protects the interests of the state and Hoosier motorists.
Under no circumstances will Indiana be required to repay the lease proceeds, and tolls only will increase according to a pre-set schedule, she said.
In addition, the IFA must consent to any new company taking over the Toll Road lease to ensure the operator can maintain and improve the 157-mile highway running from Northwest Indiana through South Bend and into Ohio.
The bankruptcy court is scheduled to rule Oct. 28 on the Toll Road operator's pre-packaged Chapter 11 bankruptcy plan.
Quote from: froggie on September 30, 2014, 08:03:42 AM
INDOT doesn't have any counts more recent than 2011, but based on that year, the ITR never goes above 36,700 vpd anywhere, with all of the eastern section (east of US 131/IN 13) less than 20,000 vpd. In short, not enough traffic to cover the debt they took on to pay the state and acquire the operating rights/revenue.
Given the number of times I've driven in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the Toll Road between Valparaiso and Portage, that seems rather incredible. Clearly they are not measuring weekend traffic levels.
They are. The daily traffic volumes that state DOTs typically factor in all days of the week and average them. Hence why it's often called Average Daily Traffic (ADT). Those that mention AADT (or Average Annual Daily Traffic) factor in seasonal variability into the average.
Furthermore, if it's a case of a holiday or summer weekend where there are a lot more travelers (presuming this is what you ran into), given the span of a full year it's not an often occurrence and gets averaged out by the often-lower off-season weekend values.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 30, 2014, 05:53:53 AM
Isn't I-90 along the Indiana Toll Road? If I'm going from Boston and New York to Chicago, I imagine I'd be on the Indiana Toll Road. How does it NOT have enough traffic?
Most people are going to fly that distance. They're not going to drive it.
Is it just me or do the curves seem banked weird, like they are a little too flat for the speeds you are going?
When was the last time it was redone?
I drive from NJ to Chicago several times a year. I've never had a TSA/ebola/FAA fire problem.
Quote from: froggie on October 02, 2014, 09:16:30 AM
They are. The daily traffic volumes that state DOTs typically factor in all days of the week and average them. Hence why it's often called Average Daily Traffic (ADT). Those that mention AADT (or Average Annual Daily Traffic) factor in seasonal variability into the average.
Furthermore, if it's a case of a holiday or summer weekend where there are a lot more travelers (presuming this is what you ran into), given the span of a full year it's not an often occurrence and gets averaged out by the often-lower off-season weekend values.
Is NYSDOT not typical then? Our AADT figures just factor in weekdays (6 AM Monday through 12 PM Friday).
I received a notice today from the Bankruptcy Court regarding the ITR filing. I presume its due to my EZ Pass being purchased from and held through the ITR.
Quote from: ysuindy on October 02, 2014, 09:17:27 PM
I received a notice today from the Bankruptcy Court regarding the ITR filing. I presume its due to my EZ Pass being purchased from and held through the ITR.
Interesting....
Does this mean that EZ Pass accounts held through the ITR could be held as assets in a BK filing?
If so, then could users stand to lose whatever money is in said account?
Quote from: Brandon on October 02, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Quote from: ysuindy on October 02, 2014, 09:17:27 PM
I received a notice today from the Bankruptcy Court regarding the ITR filing. I presume its due to my EZ Pass being purchased from and held through the ITR.
Interesting....
Does this mean that EZ Pass accounts held through the ITR could be held as assets in a BK filing?
If so, then could users stand to lose whatever money is in said account?
I was up all night worrying about whether or not I'll ever see my $5 again.
Worse news - the toll road rest areas smell bad! A state rep was "repulsed"! :-D
http://www.ibj.com/officials-raise-stink-about-smelly-toll-road-toilets/PARAMS/article/49817 (http://www.ibj.com/officials-raise-stink-about-smelly-toll-road-toilets/PARAMS/article/49817)
^^ Mrs. theline and I just got back to South Bend from a California vacation. We experienced many public rest rooms along the way, and found ones on the ITR to be the dirtiest. Oddly enough, the ones at O'Hare airport were the cleanest. (We flew from there to LAX.)
I fear the rest room conditions are just a harbinger of what we will see on the ITR over the coming years. Thanks, Mitch!
Quote from: roadman on September 24, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Another success story for Republican patronage - I mean - privatization. Not!
It's unfortunate, because years ago the Indiana Toll Road IMO was one of the best toll facilities in the country.
Quote from: froggie on September 24, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
Just goes to show that privatization of transportation facilities isn't the panacea that some politicians may think it is.
Privatization paved the way for many much needed projects elsewhere in the state, making it a good deal. Additionally governments are also just as capable at mismanaging funds and resources as private companies are. It is a shame that the private company didn't do a better job than it is currently doing. Just shows you how greed causes these things whether it is government greed, corporate greed or personal greed. Greed is bad and it always hurts the little guy.
Its too bad they aren't filing chapter 7 instead of 11 then the road could go into recievership and the state could get it back. However they are trying to reorganize. Maybe sue to this the state could negotiate a transfer o fthe lease to a new more responsible operator that will do the right thing.
Quote from: Indyroads on October 09, 2014, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 24, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Another success story for Republican patronage - I mean - privatization. Not!
It's unfortunate, because years ago the Indiana Toll Road IMO was one of the best toll facilities in the country.
Quote from: froggie on September 24, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
Just goes to show that privatization of transportation facilities isn't the panacea that some politicians may think it is.
Privatization paved the way for many much needed projects elsewhere in the state, making it a good deal. Additionally governments are also just as capable at mismanaging funds and resources as private companies are. It is a shame that the private company didn't do a better job than it is currently doing. Just shows you how greed causes these things whether it is government greed, corporate greed or personal greed. Greed is bad and it always hurts the little guy.
It was great for Indiana. Not so great for the owners of the company.
I think it goes to show that due to the near universal nature of their usage and the economies of scale, that highways are best owned by governmental agencies. There is a reason that private bridges and turnpikes disappeared. There is a reason that 99.9999999999% of roads are owned by the public.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 09, 2014, 11:05:28 AM
There is a reason that private bridges and turnpikes disappeared.
Railroads.
(Actually, a fair number survived into the 1910s-20s, at least in Pennsylvania and Virginia.)
Quote from: trafficsignal on October 03, 2014, 09:11:30 AM
Worse news - the toll road rest areas smell bad! A state rep was "repulsed"! :-D
http://www.ibj.com/officials-raise-stink-about-smelly-toll-road-toilets/PARAMS/article/49817 (http://www.ibj.com/officials-raise-stink-about-smelly-toll-road-toilets/PARAMS/article/49817)
I'm surprised state reps are JUST NOW noticing the problem with the travel plazas. They've been going downhill for a while now. They're stinky, dingy looking, and some have REALLY overpriced gas even by today's standards. Personally I also wish they still had Fazoli's in the travel plazas like they did when I was younger.
"State won't try to reclaim toll road": http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/state-won-t-try-to-reclaim-toll-road/article_86ba38ed-279d-5797-8c2a-2f7500db583c.html (http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/state-won-t-try-to-reclaim-toll-road/article_86ba38ed-279d-5797-8c2a-2f7500db583c.html)
Quote
A state official says no effort will be made to reclaim the Indiana Toll Road from its private operator that filed for bankruptcy protection last month.
. . .
[The Toll Road] was responding to a request from Democratic Sen. Joe Donnelly that the agency try to take the road from Chicago-based ITR Concession Co.
. . . the state lost money on the toll road for years before ITR paid $3.8 billion upfront for a 75-year lease in 2006.
The state, however, hadn't increased tolls for 20 years, IRT has more than doubled those rates since 2008 for vehicles not using transponders.
This makes perfect sense. If I've got a business that's been a money pit for years, and I was lucky enough to unload it to some unsuspecting bum (ITR Concession Co.), the last thing I want to do is to take back all that liability. That's especially true if there is no politically-viable way to increase revenue (tolls).
The only way that they would take it would be in response to popular uprising to hold down tolls or improve maintenance by operating the road at a loss. That's not going to happen.
Quote from: theline on October 28, 2014, 05:08:38 PM
"State won't try to reclaim toll road": http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/state-won-t-try-to-reclaim-toll-road/article_86ba38ed-279d-5797-8c2a-2f7500db583c.html (http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/state-won-t-try-to-reclaim-toll-road/article_86ba38ed-279d-5797-8c2a-2f7500db583c.html)
Quote
A state official says no effort will be made to reclaim the Indiana Toll Road from its private operator that filed for bankruptcy protection last month.
. . .
[The Toll Road] was responding to a request from Democratic Sen. Joe Donnelly that the agency try to take the road from Chicago-based ITR Concession Co.
. . . the state lost money on the toll road for years before ITR paid $3.8 billion upfront for a 75-year lease in 2006.
The state, however, hadn't increased tolls for 20 years, IRT has more than doubled those rates since 2008 for vehicles not using transponders.
This makes perfect sense. If I've got a business that's been a money pit for years, and I was lucky enough to unload it to some unsuspecting bum (ITR Concession Co.), the last thing I want to do is to take back all that liability. That's especially true if there is no politically-viable way to increase revenue (tolls).
The only way that they would take it would be in response to popular uprising to hold down tolls or improve maintenance by operating the road at a loss. That's not going to happen.
The tolls have already been doubled. Would Indiana be losing money if it took the toll road back now?
The facilities have gone downhill in spite of the toll increase. Spending will have to be increased just to catch up. I think the words of the state spokesperson speak for themselves. They've got no interest in taking it back. Could the concessionaire simply abandon it? Maybe. I suppose that would leave the state with no choice.
Quote
A northern Indiana county's commissioners have turned to an investment bank to lead a proposed seven-county consortium that would bid on the Indiana Toll Road's lease...
Investment bank may lead counties' toll road bid (http://www.ibj.com/articles/50459-investment-bank-may-lead-counties-toll-road-bid) (IBJ)
Here's another link... the goal is to put the profits from operating the Toll Road into 1) maintaining the road & 2) local infrastructure projects in each county.
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/counties-could-bid-on-bankrupt-toll-road/article_c0ce7a03-0076-5afd-a310-04a1d9cac90a.html
QuoteLaPorte County commissioners have enlisted the help of a major investment bank in an effort to lead a seven-county consortium to bid for the bankrupt Indiana Toll Road.
Investment bank Piper Jaffray & Co., of Minneapolis, has delivered a report to LaPorte County that demonstrates Toll Road cash flow could support a public entity bid and throw off enough cash to benefit surrounding counties.
Having a nonprofit established by the seven Toll Road counties place a bid would be a better alternative than letting another private investment consortium gain control of the road, said LaPorte County Commissioner David Decker.
"The nonprofit would not be beholden to shareholders who siphon all the money off," Decker said. "We want to put money back into the road."
The Toll Road's private operator, Indiana Toll Road Concession Co., declared bankruptcy on more than $6 billion in debt in September. The company has received a federal bankruptcy judge's permission to sell the 75-year lease it holds on the road to the highest bidder. The money would be used to pay back creditors.
LaPorte County is now negotiating with Piper Jaffray to assist in potentially preparing a bid, according to LaPorte County Attorney Shaw Friedman. The county has also retained the Chicago law firm of Goldstein & McClintock.
Piper Jaffray has long experience in public financing, including the E-470 beltway for Denver, which is run by a public highway authority rather than the state. It also counts among its clients the Indiana Finance Authority and municipalities in northern Indiana.
The seven county nonprofit would have the advantage of being able to issue municipal bonds for the deal, which would be paid back solely out of Toll Road revenues, according to the Piper Jaffray report. The counties would not be on the hook for repayment if the venture failed.
About $4.1 billion would have to be borrowed in order to submit a successful bid, according to the Piper Jaffray analysis. The report contemplates a bid of about $3.7 billion.
The Toll Road would provide about $38 million for infrastructure projects in the seven counties lining the Toll Road in its first year under ownership by the seven-county nonprofit, according to the report. That would build to more than $50 million within less than 10 years.
^^ I can see that. It would be far superior to the current arrangement, and actually put the money earned from the road back into useful thing instead of lining shareholders' pockets.
That would be similar to the way 19th century turnpikes and railroads often worked.
There would be lots of incentive to make the road nice, as opposed to just turning a profit.
St. Joseph County has decided not to join the consortium to purchase the toll road, at least for now. Only Lake and LaPorte Counties have signed on so far: http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/st-joseph-county-won-t-join-toll-road-consortium/article_b5f880c7-bd31-5e27-bb85-4e0de0a3778f.html (http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/st-joseph-county-won-t-join-toll-road-consortium/article_b5f880c7-bd31-5e27-bb85-4e0de0a3778f.html)
Quote
The St. Joseph County Commissioners didn't vote on joining the consortium, which currently includes Lake and LaPorte counties but was turned down by four other counties, at their board meeting this morning.
Commissioner Andy Kostielney said there were "too many unanswered questions" for him to feel confident in spending taxpayer money, but that he wouldn't rule out joining the consortium at a later date, should more information become available.
Commissioner Dave Thomas, however, said it's a mistake that St. Joseph County isn't becoming a charter member of the consortium, which would come with additional financial benefits, should the group be successful in purchasing the road.
Thomas thinks the road could be a major source of income for the county, apparently oblivious to the costs involved in maintaining the road.
South Bend Tribune article: Australian firm to assume Indiana Toll Road lease, pay $5.725 billion (behind a paywall; your ability to view may vary).
http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/australian-firm-to-assume-indiana-toll-road-lease-pay-billion/article_8728c9f6-c7fa-11e4-8b92-47c23294c2c5.html (http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/australian-firm-to-assume-indiana-toll-road-lease-pay-billion/article_8728c9f6-c7fa-11e4-8b92-47c23294c2c5.html)
Quote
An Australian company . . . IFM Investors announced Wednesday it has agreed to pay $5.725 billion to acquire ITR Concession Co., which currently holds the Toll Road lease. ITR declared bankruptcy last year.
The Indiana Finance Authority, which oversees the highway lease, said in a news release it has reviewed the bid and is satisfied IFM can meet the responsibilities of leasing the 157-mile-long highway.
IFM head of Infrastructure-North America Julio Garcia said IFM believes the purchase "is a unique opportunity to invest in a high quality United States transportation infrastructure asset."
Maybe IFM knows something that we don't. :biggrin:
Officials in Lake and LaPorte counties, which hoped to acquire the lease, haven't given up:
QuoteAttorney Shaw Friedman, representing LaPorte County, said acquisition of the lease won't become official until closing and prior to that the Indiana Finance Authority could reject the deal and reopen the process to the remaining bidders.
As a result, LaPorte County Council president Mark Yagelski said the council will meet at 6 p.m. today as scheduled to consider submitting a final bid from the two counties just in case the closing doesn't go through.
Quote from: theline on October 31, 2014, 02:08:21 PM
The facilities have gone downhill in spite of the toll increase. Spending will have to be increased just to catch up. I think the words of the state spokesperson speak for themselves. They've got no interest in taking it back. Could the concessionaire simply abandon it? Maybe. I suppose that would leave the state with no choice.
I just took the ITR this weekend for the first time in awhile. Not only were the rest areas bad, but the road absolutely stinks and the signage all looked weather beaten and worn. And the gas prices are ridiculous. In comparison the Ohio Turnpike and Illinois's toll road were much nicer facilities.
My guess is that the state doesn't care all that much because most the ITR doesn't carry a great deal of local traffic and seemingly a lower percentage of in-state residence than I saw in Illinois or Ohio.
I wouldn't say that the state doesn't care about the ITR--the state government just doesn't have control. The concessionaire can run it pretty much the way it wants to. They do have some interest in keeping motorists happy (or at least tolerant enough to keep using it). That is reflected in the plans announced this year to replace the badly aging service plazas.
As far as gas prices are concerned, the price used to be controlled by the state. The price was limited to the average price at off-road vendors in the surrounding area. The control went away when the lease was signed and prices shot up.
Slightly off-topic, I saw this new from the Fort Wayne News-Sentinel about if they should have more toll roads due to declining gas tax revenue.
http://www.news-sentinel.com/opinion/Should-we-have-more-toll-roads-
You should see the traffic on US6 in NE Indiana. Holy crap!
Traditionally US6 was the route of the "High and Wide". The Tollbooths made moving dimiensional loaded trucks a real pain. So they just took US 6.
But now, there is a lot of regular OTR trucks on it
Anyway, I would still sell that road in a heartbeat. That road does little to serve anyone from Indiana for local trips or long distance trips. LOL We got megabucks $$$ for something few Hoosiers actually use. And will probably end up with it again for free. Best deal ever! Let's do it again!
I think they should up the tolls on it. The Ohio Turnpike cost me $9.50 each way from Westgate to OH-44 (southeast of Cleveland.) The ITR cost me $4.18 each way from the eastern line to the Borman.
Unless there's a change in plans that hasn't been publicized, the ETC discount will end effective January 1, meaning that all drivers will pay the same rate. Depending on how many drivers will stay away from the Toll Road when it happens, that may not be a big bump in revenue.
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on December 15, 2015, 09:12:30 PM
Unless there's a change in plans that hasn't been publicized, the ETC discount will end effective January 1, meaning that all drivers will pay the same rate. Depending on how many drivers will stay away from the Toll Road when it happens, that may not be a big bump in revenue.
I think that's just the 1985 rates which will no longer be locked in; nothing I've read has stated that ETC would have to equal the cash rate.
LGLS990
Quote from: rawmustard on December 15, 2015, 10:04:10 PM
Quote from: nwi_navigator_1181 on December 15, 2015, 09:12:30 PM
Unless there's a change in plans that hasn't been publicized, the ETC discount will end effective January 1, meaning that all drivers will pay the same rate. Depending on how many drivers will stay away from the Toll Road when it happens, that may not be a big bump in revenue.
I think that's just the 1985 rates which will no longer be locked in; nothing I've read has stated that ETC would have to equal the cash rate.
LGLS990
Thanks for the clarification. So that means that the ETC rate will potentially increase but will potentially still be less than the cash rate?
But who is going to stay away from the ITR if the route ups a couple bucks per trip? What alternatives are there? US-6 and US-20 are too slow and US-30 is too far south. If Ohio can get away with higher rates, why can't Indiana?
I really enjoy taking US 20 through Ohio sometimes, not to shunpike, but to see something different (the turnpike is incredibly boring). It becomes hard to shunpike when you are in Indiana. But the amount of enforcement on US 20 in Ohio is crazy - and for good reason. Every trip I make west, I see at least 5 to 10 police and they aren't out there for the cars - but for the trucks. It's pretty routine to see trucks try and shunpike, only to be pulled over for anything from speeding (it's 60 MPH for the most part) to having double trailers (come on).
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 16, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
But who is going to stay away from the ITR if the route ups a couple bucks per trip? What alternatives are there? US-6 and US-20 are too slow and US-30 is too far south. If Ohio can get away with higher rates, why can't Indiana?
I-94 to US 23 is also an option, but it is quite far north.
I-94 can also be a nightmare due to traffic and weather.
I agree that the Indiana Toll Road should up their charges.
As a shunpiker here is how I would personally go if I was traveling the Gary/Hammond area to Toledo. I would go east on I-94 to Michigan City. From Michigan City I would take US 20 east. I would continue straight on IN 2 to South Bend where I would get on the South Bend / Elkhart bypass (US 20). I would take US 20 all the way to Toledo. In the end it would save me around $14. At $2 per gallon and 32 mpg that is 224 miles of extra money for gas I would have.
When I drove from Joplin to OKC I took US 60 and OK 66 and saved $8. But then again I am the person that only spent $320 on a week long 4000 mile trip that included Arizona and Mexico last month. ;-)
Quote from: US 41 on December 22, 2015, 03:46:54 PM
As a shunpiker here is how I would personally go if I was traveling the Gary/Hammond area to Toledo. I would go east on I-94 to Michigan City. From Michigan City I would take US 20 east. I would continue straight on IN 2 to South Bend where I would get on the South Bend / Elkhart bypass (US 20). I would take US 20 all the way to Toledo. In the end it would save me around $14. At $2 per gallon and 32 mpg that is 224 miles of extra money for gas I would have.
What would be the approximate time difference?
Quote from: US 41 on December 22, 2015, 03:46:54 PM
I agree that the Indiana Toll Road should up their charges.
As a shunpiker here is how I would personally go if I was traveling the Gary/Hammond area to Toledo. I would go east on I-94 to Michigan City. From Michigan City I would take US 20 east. I would continue straight on IN 2 to South Bend where I would get on the South Bend / Elkhart bypass (US 20). I would take US 20 all the way to Toledo. In the end it would save me around $14. At $2 per gallon and 32 mpg that is 224 miles of extra money for gas I would have.
When I drove from Joplin to OKC I took US 60 and OK 66 and saved $8. But then again I am the person that only spent $320 on a week long 4000 mile trip that included Arizona and Mexico last month. ;-)
Indiana Toll Road need gate free toll lanes and a plan to get High speed tolling on the main line + the sky way.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 22, 2015, 05:19:19 PM
Quote from: US 41 on December 22, 2015, 03:46:54 PM
As a shunpiker here is how I would personally go if I was traveling the Gary/Hammond area to Toledo. I would go east on I-94 to Michigan City. From Michigan City I would take US 20 east. I would continue straight on IN 2 to South Bend where I would get on the South Bend / Elkhart bypass (US 20). I would take US 20 all the way to Toledo. In the end it would save me around $14. At $2 per gallon and 32 mpg that is 224 miles of extra money for gas I would have.
What would be the approximate time difference?
Gary - Toledo
I-80/90 (toll road)
Miles= 217
Time= 3 hrs 16 min
Gas= $15 (30 mpg @ $2 per gal)
Tolls= $14
Total= $29I-94 / US 20 (free option)
Miles= 208
Time= 3 hrs 56 min
Gas= $14
Tolls= $0
Total= $14*Gas prices and tolls are rounded up to the next dollar amount. (Ex: $13.42 = $14)
So it only takes 40 minutes longer to take US 20, but it is 9 miles shorter and saves you around $15. Lately $15 has been filling up my gas tank.
Thank you. I will have to try that someday. I never realized the odd routing of IN-2 and US-20 from Michigan City to South Bend until this topic!
Quote from: theline on December 22, 2015, 02:05:39 PM
I-94 can also be a nightmare due to traffic and weather.
I've taken recently to using the ITR and I-69 instead of I-94 for precisely these reasons. Unless it's late at night, I-94 is a stressful drive. I-80/90, at least once you're past Valparaiso, is a much calmer drive.
Pavement quality and speed enforcement are on par with I-94, and travel time and distance are similar. The toll costs are considerably cheaper than the Illinois toll roads I have to traverse to get around Chicago in a timely manner.
Resurrecting a long-dormant thread to complain at the ITR...I travel it several times a year, and the exit toll machines look like they have been refurbished from the NY Subway system...in the 1970s. They hardly work, give you change in dollar coins, and the credit card readers are CRAP. I sat behind a semi near Angola for nearly 10 minutes while the drives swiped and swiped and swiped his credit card to try to get through. It wouldnt read my card, so I had to deposit a $20 for a $7 toll and got a huge handful of change. Other lanes were similarly backed up. Indiana sure does loving to do things on the CHEAP. It's an embarrassment.
Quote from: westerninterloper on August 17, 2019, 03:40:45 PM
Resurrecting a long-dormant thread to complain at the ITR...I travel it several times a year, and the exit toll machines look like they have been refurbished from the NY Subway system...in the 1970s. They hardly work, give you change in dollar coins, and the credit card readers are CRAP. I sat behind a semi near Angola for nearly 10 minutes while the drives swiped and swiped and swiped his credit card to try to get through. It wouldnt read my card, so I had to deposit a $20 for a $7 toll and got a huge handful of change. Other lanes were similarly backed up. Indiana sure does loving to do things on the CHEAP. It's an embarrassment.
But you gotta love all those unneeded improvements to US 31!
The ITR is in such horrid shape I sometimes wonder if I'm going to end up with a bent rim every time I drive back east. It's a horrible road; terrible toll management, awful road conditions, and subpar service areas.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 17, 2019, 05:11:43 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on August 17, 2019, 03:40:45 PM
Resurrecting a long-dormant thread to complain at the ITR...I travel it several times a year, and the exit toll machines look like they have been refurbished from the NY Subway system...in the 1970s. They hardly work, give you change in dollar coins, and the credit card readers are CRAP. I sat behind a semi near Angola for nearly 10 minutes while the drives swiped and swiped and swiped his credit card to try to get through. It wouldnt read my card, so I had to deposit a $20 for a $7 toll and got a huge handful of change. Other lanes were similarly backed up. Indiana sure does loving to do things on the CHEAP. It's an embarrassment.
But you gotta love all those unneeded improvements to US 31!
US 31 South Bend-Indy is pretty heavily traveled and removing most of the stoplights has greatly reduced travel times and increased safety. I-65 has gotten/is getting expanded to 6 lanes in a lot of places, which also improved travel times and safety. Maybe the old toll units are by design to encourage people to get EZ Pass.
Quote from: machias on August 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
The ITR is in such horrid shape I sometimes wonder if I'm going to end up with a bent rim every time I drive back east. It's a horrible road; terrible toll management, awful road conditions, and subpar service areas.
Agreed...the new rest areas are cramped, the traffic patterns aren't intuitive or well-signed, and the quality of the road is terrible. I'm happy US 31 was upgraded between SB and Indy - but the state should have bitten a bullet and just raised the money instead of relinquishing responsibility for the ITR and passing the buck, passing the buck, passing the buck.
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 18, 2019, 01:45:57 PM
Maybe the old toll units are by design to encourage people to get EZ Pass.
Except the Indiana Toll Road offers a cheaper or equal cash rate than transponder for some plazas. For example, I'm seeing the toll being $9 for both cash and transponder from Portage to the Eastpoint Toll Plaza. If they wanted to encourage EZ Pass use, the transponder rate should always be cheaper.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 18, 2019, 09:52:54 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 18, 2019, 01:45:57 PM
Maybe the old toll units are by design to encourage people to get EZ Pass.
Except the Indiana Toll Road offers a cheaper or equal cash rate than transponder for some plazas. For example, I'm seeing the toll being $9 for both cash and transponder from Portage to the Eastpoint Toll Plaza. If they wanted to encourage EZ Pass use, the transponder rate should always be cheaper.
Doesn't the ITR charge a 3 cent "foreign" transponder fee if your EZ Pass is not ITR issued? Which effectively makes the EZ Pass toll higher than the cash toll (even if only by a few pennies)? Or has ITR quit that silliness?
Now that I live in Southern IL I don't have much travel utility on the ITR, but last time I did use it I had those silly Toll + 3 cent charges on my I-Pass account
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 18, 2019, 10:09:35 PM
Doesn't the ITR charge a 3 cent "foreign" transponder fee if your EZ Pass is not ITR issued? Which effectively makes the EZ Pass toll higher than the cash toll (even if only by a few pennies)? Or has ITR quit that silliness?
I recall the ITR used to offer "I-Zoom"-branded E-Z Passes. Didn't see those posters when I drove the road earlier this month. What, if any, flavor of E-Z Pass is the ITR now issuing?
Quote from: oscar on August 18, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 18, 2019, 10:09:35 PM
Doesn't the ITR charge a 3 cent "foreign" transponder fee if your EZ Pass is not ITR issued? Which effectively makes the EZ Pass toll higher than the cash toll (even if only by a few pennies)? Or has ITR quit that silliness?
I recall the ITR used to offer "I-Zoom"-branded E-Z Passes. Didn't see those posters when I drove the road earlier this month. What, if any, flavor of E-Z Pass is the ITR now issuing?
They dropped the I-Zoom brand a few years back, and use the generic EZ-Pass branding now for their transponder. I assume the toll booths either just say say EZ Pass now or maybe EZ Pass and I-Pass?
Quote from: oscar on August 18, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 18, 2019, 10:09:35 PM
Doesn't the ITR charge a 3 cent "foreign" transponder fee if your EZ Pass is not ITR issued? Which effectively makes the EZ Pass toll higher than the cash toll (even if only by a few pennies)? Or has ITR quit that silliness?
I recall the ITR used to offer "I-Zoom"-branded E-Z Passes. Didn't see those posters when I drove the road earlier this month. What, if any, flavor of E-Z Pass is the ITR now issuing?
I'm pretty sure it's just branded E-Z Pass now, based on what I've seen of signage and such, but I don't have one myself (or rather I have an I-Pass).
Regarding the travel plazas what I really find disappointing is that only half of them have dining now. Between that and not reopening the Fremont plazas the Toll Road has gone from having five places to stop and eat in each direction to just two. It certainly made sense to replace the old ones, but the new ones don't compare well to, say, the ones on the Ohio Turnpike.
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 18, 2019, 11:06:36 PM
They dropped the I-Zoom brand a few years back, and use the generic EZ-Pass branding now for their transponder. I assume the toll booths either just say say EZ Pass now or maybe EZ Pass and I-Pass?
Most of the signage just says E-Z Pass. Some of the signs as you're approaching the toll booths also have a small I-Pass logo kinda awkwardly off to one side as they originally had three logos (I-Zoom, E-Z Pass, I-Pass) and they just pasted a large E-Z Pass logo over the I-Zoom and covered up the old smaller E-Z Pass logo. The whole thing looks kinda sloppily thrown together, which is honestly pretty appropriate for the ITR.
Quote from: westerninterloper on August 18, 2019, 08:21:19 PM
Quote from: machias on August 17, 2019, 09:58:15 PM
The ITR is in such horrid shape I sometimes wonder if I'm going to end up with a bent rim every time I drive back east. It's a horrible road; terrible toll management, awful road conditions, and subpar service areas.
Agreed...the new rest areas are cramped, the traffic patterns aren't intuitive or well-signed, and the quality of the road is terrible. I'm happy US 31 was upgraded between SB and Indy - but the state should have bitten a bullet and just raised the money instead of relinquishing responsibility for the ITR and passing the buck, passing the buck, passing the buck.
Most IN residents would prefer to have the money invested in 31 and other roads rather than the Toll Road, which is mostly used by out of staters and people from a handful of counties in northern IN.
Quote
I just took the ITR this weekend for the first time in awhile. Not only were the rest areas bad, but the road absolutely stinks and the signage all looked weather beaten and worn. And the gas prices are ridiculous. In comparison the Ohio Turnpike and Illinois's toll road were much nicer facilities.
My guess is that the state doesn't care all that much because most the ITR doesn't carry a great deal of local traffic and seemingly a lower percentage of in-state residence than I saw in Illinois or Ohio.
If people really wanted to avoid the ITR, there are alternatives via Michigan, particularly I-94 --> US-12 --> M-66 --> I-80/I-90.
Yes, you still eventually hit the ITR, but you'll avoid most of the road, and only have to deal with the nonsense of the ITR for approx. 25 miles instead of approx. 125 miles.
EDIT: Just did a Gary-Toledo search on Google Maps. I-94 to US-12 to M-66 to I-80/I-90 adds only 7 miles, compared to I-80/I-90. In comparison to I-94 to US-23, which adds a solid 50 miles.