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Started by FLRoads, January 20, 2009, 11:55:15 PM

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Grzrd

Quote from: Steve on February 18, 2012, 10:41:19 PM
According to real news sources, that's what I've heard as well.

I think this is a real news source:

Quote
North Carolina won permission from the Federal Highway Administration Friday to collect tolls on Interstate 95, the state Department of Transportation said.
DOT is floating a $4.4 billion plan to overhaul all 182 miles of I-95, widening the four-lane expressway to six lanes -- and eight lanes on the busiest 50 miles. To pay for it, DOT wants to collect tolls from its drivers .... As a result, truckers (25 percent of all I-95 traffic) and out-of-state cars and trucks (55 percent) could actually end up paying more than their share of the tolls.
Check the attached Google map to see how this would affect you and your trips on I-95. Blue icons mark locations for 9 sets of electronic toll sensors on I-95.  Pink icons mark the nearest exits, before and after the sensors, where drivers going on or off I-95 also would pay tolls.
All other exits? Toll-free. And that's most of them.
When tolling starts in 2019, a car driving all the way between South Carolina and Virginia probably would be tolled $19.20, DOT says. Tolls for heavy trucks will be higher ....


froggie


Beltway

Quote from: Grzrd on February 18, 2012, 11:08:28 PM
North Carolina won permission from the Federal Highway Administration Friday to collect tolls on Interstate 95, the state Department of Transportation said.
DOT is floating a $4.4 billion plan to overhaul all 182 miles of I-95, widening the four-lane expressway to six lanes -- and eight lanes on the busiest 50 miles. To pay for it, DOT wants to collect tolls from its drivers .... As a result, truckers (25 percent of all I-95 traffic) and out-of-state cars and trucks (55 percent) could actually end up paying more than their share of the tolls.
Check the attached Google map to see how this would affect you and your trips on I-95. Blue icons mark locations for 9 sets of electronic toll sensors on I-95.  Pink icons mark the nearest exits, before and after the sensors, where drivers going on or off I-95 also would pay tolls.
All other exits? Toll-free. And that's most of them.
When tolling starts in 2019, a car driving all the way between South Carolina and Virginia probably would be tolled $19.20, DOT says. Tolls for heavy trucks will be higher ....

Car tolls of 11 cents per mile for 181 miles of historically untolled rural Interstate highway???

The public will massively oppose this scheme.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
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DeaconG

So I decided to run some numbers here...$4.4B with a projected toll of $19.20 comes out to approximately 229.1 million trips needed to pay it off.
Divided by the best case 53,000 AADT, you have 4,323 days...nearly 12 YEARS of tolls.

And, of course, this does NOT exclude the possibility that those tolls won't rise OR that those tolls won't be dropped in 2030 (after all, they can always find OTHER needs that can be addressed using the cash flow).

Whee doggies, this is gonna get UG-LY...  :-D
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Beltway

#154
The N.C. US-301 corridor was for the most part quite rural back before I-95 was built.  Nowadays there are tons of small town type development all along the N.C. I-95 corridor, which for the most part closely parallels US-301.  Then there are the long established US-301 cities of Fayetteville, Wilson, Rocky Mount and Roanoke Rapids.

Meaning that a goodly portion of the N.C. I-95 traffic is local within N.C., local as in trips of 20 miles or less --- and while they may get some break on tolls, they are going to have to pay something in this scheme, and even with a 50% discount that is still 6 cents per mile, or $1.20 for a 20 mile trip.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Beltway on February 20, 2012, 09:40:47 PM
Meaning that a goodly portion of the N.C. I-95 traffic is local within N.C., local as in trips of 20 miles or less --- and while they may get some break on tolls, they are going to have to pay something in this scheme, and even with a 50% discount that is still 6 cents per mile, or $1.20 for a 20 mile trip.

One of the few things that the Pennsylvania proposal to toll I-80 got right was to grant free passage to 4-wheeled vehicles passing their first toll point, so that relatively short trips on the road would not be tolled. 

With all-electronic tolling, this is relatively simple to implement.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 20, 2012, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 20, 2012, 09:40:47 PM
Meaning that a goodly portion of the N.C. I-95 traffic is local within N.C., local as in trips of 20 miles or less --- and while they may get some break on tolls, they are going to have to pay something in this scheme, and even with a 50% discount that is still 6 cents per mile, or $1.20 for a 20 mile trip.

One of the few things that the Pennsylvania proposal to toll I-80 got right was to grant free passage to 4-wheeled vehicles passing their first toll point, so that relatively short trips on the road would not be tolled. 

With all-electronic tolling, this is relatively simple to implement.

N.C. I-95 has far more local development and traffic than PA I-80 ... I don't think it would be feasible to let short trips be untolled.  That local traffic and development will increase on a widened highway.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Grzrd

#157
Quote from: Grzrd on February 18, 2012, 11:08:28 PM
I think this is a real news source:
Quote
Check the attached Google map to see how this would affect you and your trips on I-95. Blue icons mark locations for 9 sets of electronic toll sensors on I-95.  Pink icons mark the nearest exits, before and after the sensors, where drivers going on or off I-95 also would pay tolls.
All other exits? Toll-free. And that's most of them.

I admittedly have not closely analyzed the map icons to see to what extent local traffic could realistically avoid the tolls, but I got the impression that NCDOT was at least making some type of effort to spare the locals.  Has anyone tried to figure out sensor avoidance routes yet?  :ninja:  

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Beltway on February 21, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 20, 2012, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 20, 2012, 09:40:47 PM
Meaning that a goodly portion of the N.C. I-95 traffic is local within N.C., local as in trips of 20 miles or less --- and while they may get some break on tolls, they are going to have to pay something in this scheme, and even with a 50% discount that is still 6 cents per mile, or $1.20 for a 20 mile trip.

One of the few things that the Pennsylvania proposal to toll I-80 got right was to grant free passage to 4-wheeled vehicles passing their first toll point, so that relatively short trips on the road would not be tolled.  

With all-electronic tolling, this is relatively simple to implement.

N.C. I-95 has far more local development and traffic than PA I-80 ... I don't think it would be feasible to let short trips be untolled.

Using a travel demand forecasting model for I-95 traffic in North Carolina, it should be pretty easy for NCDOT or one of its consultants to develop a trip length frequency distribution for I-95 travel to determine that.  In fact, it's one of the basic steps in running a "four step" travel demand model, so they have probably already done it.

You might recall that the Connecticut Turnpike (most of which is I-95) was once tolled with a system of barrier tolls, and the locations of the barriers were sited to allow significant local travel to take place without paying tolls.

QuoteThat local traffic and development will increase on a widened highway.

Are you buying in to the notion of "induced" demand for highway capacity?  "Induced" demand and "induced" traffic are standard arguments used (over and over and over again) by the anti-highway/anti-auto/anti-mobility industry to oppose increased highway capacity.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

#159
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 21, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
That local traffic and development will increase on a widened highway.
Are you buying in to the notion of "induced" demand for highway capacity?  "Induced" demand and "induced" traffic are standard arguments used (over and over and over again) by the anti-highway/anti-auto/anti-mobility industry to oppose increased highway capacity.

No, I am basing the future on the changes that have occured since I-95 was built.  The corridor continues to develop.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

CanesFan27

Quote from: Beltway on February 20, 2012, 09:40:47 PM
The N.C. US-301 corridor was for the most part quite rural back before I-95 was built.  Nowadays there are tons of small town type development all along the N.C. I-95 corridor, which for the most part closely parallels US-301.  Then there are the long established US-301 cities of Fayetteville, Wilson, Rocky Mount and Roanoke Rapids.

Meaning that a goodly portion of the N.C. I-95 traffic is local within N.C., local as in trips of 20 miles or less --- and while they may get some break on tolls, they are going to have to pay something in this scheme, and even with a 50% discount that is still 6 cents per mile, or $1.20 for a 20 mile trip.

I-95 traffic is more thru than local.  The local traffic is heaviest in the Dunn and Benson areas which there will not be any tolls.  Any other local (NC origin) traffic is going to be of some distance 40+ miles.  I.E. Raleigh to Fayetteville.  

US 301 would not be able to handle any toll avoidance traffic with the exception of Fayetteville (Business I-95), and Kenly to Rocky Mount.  Those are the only four lane sections of US 301.  Traffic is slow in Dunn, Benson, Smithfield/Selma, old 301 through Lumberton, Weldon, then throw in many of the 35 mph small town along the way.

Driving 301 compared to 95 throughout NC is a good 90 minutes or more of a drive.

It isn't going to get ugly as ya'll are making out to be.

CanesFan27

Quote from: Beltway on February 21, 2012, 09:46:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 21, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
That local traffic and development will increase on a widened highway.
Are you buying in to the notion of "induced" demand for highway capacity?  "Induced" demand and "induced" traffic are standard arguments used (over and over and over again) by the anti-highway/anti-auto/anti-mobility industry to oppose increased highway capacity.

No, I am basing the future on the changes that have occured since I-95 was built.  The corridor continues to develop.

It has? Sure you aren't talking about I-40/85 or 85 from Charlotte to Durham?

People are leaving the eastern part of the state to move to Charlotte and Raleigh.  Just look at some of the unemployment numbers of the I-95 Counties and eastern North Carolina.  If development means compared to 1960 when the Fayetteville to Kenly stretch opened sure.  But compared to the rest of the state - or even the other interstates within the state- no way.

cpzilliacus

TOLLROADSnews: Tolls for $4.5b work on NC/I-95 proposed in two phases

QuoteTolling and rebuild/capacity additions costing some $1.81b will start in the most urgent section 61 miles, 100km from NC211 at mile marker MM20 south of Fayetteville to MM81 at I-40. Phase 2 to begin after Phase 1 is  complete would see $2.63b of work on 20 miles south of Fayetteville to South Carolina and on 100 miles north of I-40 up to the Virginia line plus tolls started in those stretches.

QuoteTolls per mile would be higher in the Phase 1 part with the higher traffic and greater roadwork (going to 8 lanes) plus more interchange improvements.

QuoteThe toll scheme is for all-electronic toll points - a mix of multi-protocol transponder readers (E-ZPass, SunPass and NC brand 6Bs at least) and cameras for pay-by-mail. There will be nine mainline toll points and on 18 sets of outwards facing ramp pairs on  either side to get tolls on all but the short on and off trips in between. (see sketch plan nearby)

QuoteThey've allowed $78m for the toll system - just under 2% of project cost.

QuoteMainline gantries would be about 20 miles, 32km apart, three in the Phase 1 portion and six in the Phase 3.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

CanesFan27

Oh, I will be stopping by at the info session in Wilson tonight.

NE2

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
"Induced" demand and "induced" traffic are standard arguments used (over and over and over again) by the anti-highway/anti-auto/anti-mobility industry to oppose increased highway capacity.
Doesn't make it false.
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cpzilliacus

Quote from: NE2 on February 21, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
"Induced" demand and "induced" traffic are standard arguments used (over and over and over again) by the anti-highway/anti-auto/anti-mobility industry to oppose increased highway capacity.
Doesn't make it false.

I believe that new highways (if they are "free" and uncongested) probably lead to longer trip lengths in areas that are experiencing growth in employment and resident population).  But as CanesFan27 correctly pointed out above, many counties near I-95 in North Carolina have been losing population.  And the availability of new highway capacity does not mean that it instantly fills up, especially if it is tolled (as NCDOT is proposing for I-95).

The lay source that's frequently cited on the subject of "induced" demand for highway capacity was a 1999 article about increased traffic on I-270 in Maryland by Alan Sipress in the Washington Post (online for free here). 

Sipress and his editors at the Post made a critical omission in that article. 

When  the travel demand forecasts were done as part of the studies that recommended widening I-270, the network assumptions included both an InterCounty Connector running east to I-95 (which at the time that the article was written, was in limbo) and a new crossing of the Potomac River to the west and south of I-270 to Northern Virginia.  Without those circumferential links, I-270 was going to fill to capacity much more quickly than the forecasts had predicted.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

CanesFan27

It's not going to get ugly - but Anti I-95 Tolling signs are already up. 

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2012/02/anti-i-95-tolling-signs-already-up-in.html

Weldon, NC photo taken today by Billy Riddle.  He's going to meet up with me at the info meeting in Wilson tonight.

agentsteel53

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live from sunny San Diego.

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1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
....

You might recall that the Connecticut Turnpike (most of which is I-95) was once tolled with a system of barrier tolls, and the locations of the barriers were sited to allow significant local travel to take place without paying tolls.

....

I believe the Maine Turnpike is configured that way now (I last drove on it in 2008, but aside from a rate increase I think the setup is the same). There are three barrier tolls. At the entrances between the York and New Gloucester barriers you also pay $1.00 when you enter the Turnpike. Most exits, however, are not tolled, with a couple of exceptions–the two ends of I-295, as well as unsigned I-495, are tolled for both entry to and exit from the Turnpike. (The southern end of I-295 is the place where Maine residents all know to take Exit 45, the Maine Mall exit, instead of Exit 44 for I-295 because the former is not tolled while the latter carries a $1.00 toll. Half a mile east from Exit 45 you then enter I-295. It's even easier than shunpiking the Delaware Turnpike!) So essentially what it does is let local residents go a long way for a dollar while hitting out-of-staters with the barrier tolls plus another toll upon exit if they use the most popular tourist routes. I-95 in North Carolina is a much busier road than it is in Maine (though the portion in Maine is a much better road than most of North Carolina's, at least the part south of Portland at least), but I'm certain North Carolina could study the way Maine set it up and figure out some way to do something similar. They've plainly stated that they really want to sock the out-of-staters who pass through the state but never stop except perhaps at a rest area to take a leak.

Maine also gives E-ZPass customers a major discount if they use the Turnpike a lot. The plan is set up so that while out-of-staters are technically eligible, in practice they'll never qualify unless they commute to work in Maine from a residence in New Hampshire or Massachusetts. North Carolina could opt to do the same if enough residents push for it.
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CanesFan27

Some photos, notes, information, and commentary on the I-95 toll proposal from the Public Information Hearing that Billy Riddle and I attended in WIlson, NC on Tuesday.

http://surewhynotnow.blogspot.com/2012/02/i-95-tolling-public-hearing-wilson-nc.html

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2012, 05:38:39 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
....

You might recall that the Connecticut Turnpike (most of which is I-95) was once tolled with a system of barrier tolls, and the locations of the barriers were sited to allow significant local travel to take place without paying tolls.

....

I believe the Maine Turnpike is configured that way now (I last drove on it in 2008, but aside from a rate increase I think the setup is the same). There are three barrier tolls. At the entrances between the York and New Gloucester barriers you also pay $1.00 when you enter the Turnpike. Most exits, however, are not tolled, with a couple of exceptions–the two ends of I-295, as well as unsigned I-495, are tolled for both entry to and exit from the Turnpike. (The southern end of I-295 is the place where Maine residents all know to take Exit 45, the Maine Mall exit, instead of Exit 44 for I-295 because the former is not tolled while the latter carries a $1.00 toll. Half a mile east from Exit 45 you then enter I-295. It's even easier than shunpiking the Delaware Turnpike!) So essentially what it does is let local residents go a long way for a dollar while hitting out-of-staters with the barrier tolls plus another toll upon exit if they use the most popular tourist routes.

Last time I was on the Maine Turnpike, it was still a "closed" ticket system (like the New Jersey Turnpike).  A long time ago.

QuoteI-95 in North Carolina is a much busier road than it is in Maine (though the portion in Maine is a much better road than most of North Carolina's, at least the part south of Portland at least), but I'm certain North Carolina could study the way Maine set it up and figure out some way to do something similar. They've plainly stated that they really want to sock the out-of-staters who pass through the state but never stop except perhaps at a rest area to take a leak.

I usually make at least one stop in North Carolina when crossing it on I-95.  Either to fill up at the Sam's Club in Lumberton (near Exit 20) or at the outlet mall in Smithfield.  So I pay some taxes to N.C. when I go that way.

QuoteMaine also gives E-ZPass customers a major discount if they use the Turnpike a lot. The plan is set up so that while out-of-staters are technically eligible, in practice they'll never qualify unless they commute to work in Maine from a residence in New Hampshire or Massachusetts. North Carolina could opt to do the same if enough residents push for it.

I like the idea of giving short trips on I-95 a break from the tolls (regardless of residency of the vehicle), as Pennsylvania proposed to do with I-80. 

I don't like the system used by some states to give E-ZPass discounts only to their own residents.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

TOLLROADSnews: NC Turnpike/ATI asking vendors to demo newest toll technologies, especially IOP in April

QuoteNCTA is especially interested license plate recognition and in multi protocol readers, NCTA director of operations Barry Mickle tells us, because of their location between Florida and the E-ZPass region and the importance of interstate travel in their future tollroads.  They are also very interested in improvements on the ISO 18000 6B sticker tags and the opportunity for lower cost transponders.

QuoteFor the demonstrations they will have the use of the facilities at an emergency services training center next to the runway of an abandoned airfield near Sanford NC, 35 miles west of Raleigh. The runway pavement is just 0.8 miles, 1.2km long and 40ft, 12m wide.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Ellmers against I-95 tolls

QuoteU.S. Rep. Renee Ellmers opposes the I-95 tolls plan. The Dunn Republican charges that residents in her district would be disproportionately affected since a major portion of the highway runs through the region. She sent a letter to the U.S. Department of Transportation Wednesday calling for an economic impact study on local business and residents

QuoteLast month, North Carolina won preliminary approval from the Federal Highway Administration to collect tolls on Interstate 95 to pay for a $4.4 billion widening project.

Quote"While I recognize the need to maintain I-95, paying for the construction through a highway tax could be devastating to residents and small businesses along the I-95 corridor,"  Ellmers wrote.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 01, 2012, 11:11:17 PM
QuoteU.S. Rep. Renee Ellmers opposes the I-95 tolls plan. The Dunn Republican charges that residents in her district would be disproportionately affected since a major portion of the highway runs through the region. She sent a letter to the U.S. Department of Transportation Wednesday calling for an economic impact study on local business and residents

QuoteLast month, North Carolina won preliminary approval from the Federal Highway Administration to collect tolls on Interstate 95 to pay for a $4.4 billion widening project.

Quote"While I recognize the need to maintain I-95, paying for the construction through a highway tax could be devastating to residents and small businesses along the I-95 corridor,"  Ellmers wrote.

What the hell kind of "news" sources do you always find? In the same quotes, it says that Ellmers reportedly opposes tolls, but is directly quoted in writing as saying that paying through a highway tax could be devastating. Sounds to me like she SUPPORTS the tolls.

NE2

Eh, it's the Repub language where everything bad is a tax.
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I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".



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