New proposal would extend Suncoast Parkway to Georgia

[bigdave]

There was a proposal to have a tolled spur of I-10 to run along US 231 from Cottondale northward and actually cut through the middle of Dothan.  Someone here showed and posted the plans.  One politician running for office in 2010 actually made it one of his concerns to have that particular road built even.

I guess we need another Michael to wake up some of the people in that part of the nation to finally realize that such a freeway is warranted.

Alabama pulled a number of interstate highway proposals off the table a couple of years back, and the Dothan connector was one of those.

[D-Dey65]

Alabama pulled a number of interstate highway proposals off the table a couple of years back, and the Dothan connector was one of those.

Too bad. I remember the crusade to convert US 231 into an interstate to or through Dothan. It would've been nice to see it as an extension of I-85 towards Panama City. They even had a website that died off several years ago. If I'm not mistaken, it was called "SaveDothan[dot]org," or something like that. Your average environmental organization would probably throw a fit if they saw some website claiming to save a city or community that turned out to be pro-interstate highway.

[froggie]

^ Despite outward appearances, Dothan's a dying city.  They saw a route through town as a way to revitalize the city, so it's really not shocking that they supported the highway.  Many (most?) cities that oppose such highway projects are NOT dying.

[bigdave]

Too bad. I remember the crusade to convert US 231 into an interstate to or through Dothan. It would've been nice to see it as an extension of I-85 towards Panama City. They even had a website that died off several years ago. If I'm not mistaken, it was called "SaveDothan[dot]org," or something like that. Your average environmental organization would probably throw a fit if they saw some website claiming to save a city or community that turned out to be pro-interstate highway.

I remember that site. The state was quite reasonably looking at a bypass, and all of the beach traffic would have gone around Dothan instead of slogging their way through town. And of course a bypass would have been cheaper, not even taking into account dealing with a railyard in Dothan if it went straight into town.

Here's my post from last fall:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5555.msg2352697#msg2352697

[Henry]

I need to see either one extended into Georgia and around Atlanta as another Atlanta bypass for the snowbirds. Hopefully both Florida and Georgia could work in collaboration to get this started. It would be the real Georgia-Florida highway. Plus either route would provide hurricane relief during evacuations

I would love to see this changed to more of the US 19 corridor to the east of Tallahassee and then perhaps kick into the US 27 corridor up Georgia.  That would bypass the extremely heavy traffic on I-75 (where there is always construction and always at least one accident stopping traffic for miles when I go through).  It could bend back to I-75 from Rome to Calhoun, and then somewhere around Dalton to Cleveland, TN (GA 71 looks like a straight shot) bypass I-75 going to Chattanooga.

I would also include I-185 in the routing, seeing that it's already a spur from I-85 to Columbus. But other than that, I love the idea! Too bad FL and GA will never go for it, because they don't see eye-to-eye on anything.

[roadman65]

^ Despite outward appearances, Dothan's a dying city.  They saw a route through town as a way to revitalize the city, so it's really not shocking that they supported the highway.  Many (most?) cities that oppose such highway projects are NOT dying.

Then when they do get the highway to rebuild the city, several decades later the new city wants to convert it back to boulevard status hence Syracuse, Dallas, and now Tampa.  Oh yeah, NYC with I-895 now being history.

[Finrod]

I need to see either one extended into Georgia and around Atlanta as another Atlanta bypass for the snowbirds. Hopefully both Florida and Georgia could work in collaboration to get this started. It would be the real Georgia-Florida highway. Plus either route would provide hurricane relief during evacuations

I would love to see this changed to more of the US 19 corridor to the east of Tallahassee and then perhaps kick into the US 27 corridor up Georgia.  That would bypass the extremely heavy traffic on I-75 (where there is always construction and always at least one accident stopping traffic for miles when I go through).  It could bend back to I-75 from Rome to Calhoun, and then somewhere around Dalton to Cleveland, TN (GA 71 looks like a straight shot) bypass I-75 going to Chattanooga.

I would also include I-185 in the routing, seeing that it's already a spur from I-85 to Columbus. But other than that, I love the idea! Too bad FL and GA will never go for it, because they don't see eye-to-eye on anything.

Agreed.  I'd route it near Tallahassee then up to Albany GA, then turn GA 520 into a proper expressway from Albany to Columbus.  I've seen a proposal made to make Alt 27 from Newnan to Carrollton then 27 from Carrollton to Rome and SR 53 from Rome to Calhoun an expressway, which could tie into this.  But that's more new expressway than Georgia has built in several decades, and would have to compete with proposed I-14.

[sparker]

I need to see either one extended into Georgia and around Atlanta as another Atlanta bypass for the snowbirds. Hopefully both Florida and Georgia could work in collaboration to get this started. It would be the real Georgia-Florida highway. Plus either route would provide hurricane relief during evacuations

I would love to see this changed to more of the US 19 corridor to the east of Tallahassee and then perhaps kick into the US 27 corridor up Georgia.  That would bypass the extremely heavy traffic on I-75 (where there is always construction and always at least one accident stopping traffic for miles when I go through).  It could bend back to I-75 from Rome to Calhoun, and then somewhere around Dalton to Cleveland, TN (GA 71 looks like a straight shot) bypass I-75 going to Chattanooga.

I would also include I-185 in the routing, seeing that it's already a spur from I-85 to Columbus. But other than that, I love the idea! Too bad FL and GA will never go for it, because they don't see eye-to-eye on anything.

Agreed.  I'd route it near Tallahassee then up to Albany GA, then turn GA 520 into a proper expressway from Albany to Columbus.  I've seen a proposal made to make Alt 27 from Newnan to Carrollton then 27 from Carrollton to Rome and SR 53 from Rome to Calhoun an expressway, which could tie into this.  But that's more new expressway than Georgia has built in several decades, and would have to compete with proposed I-14.

Well, since Alabama's state government seems poised to return the state to premodern times (including providing any more freeway access than is presently on the ground), it would seem to be up to the state of GA to host any corridors coming up from FL.  What GA has going for it is their GRIP program, itself a legislated (2005 under SAFETEA-LU) high-priority corridor "cluster", which technically can be any type of rural road improvement, from better-aligned 2-lane facilities all the way to expressways with occasional grade separations.  If something like the Suncoast corridor could be coordinated with the GA efforts, the above suggestion of improving US 19 from the state line to Albany (already an expressway) and then to Columbus might be feasible -- although it's likely not to be an Interstate-grade corridor but rather a standard rural expressway with the occasional interchange (at major crossing routes).  It could and likely would use the GA 300 corridor as an accessway to I-75, as well as using GRIP 520 up to I-185 in Columbus.  Since last year's signage of the "Fall Line" expressway continuum as GRIP 540 from Columbus to Augusta, it seems GA has something of a renewed commitment to the long-distance in-state corridor concept (joining 515 and 520 in that regard).  Whether that enthusiasm could and would be extended to a long-distance corridor up the west side of the state (functioning as something of an Atlanta bypass, as 540 is to some degree) is yet TBD.

Even though there are some GA collegiate enthusiasts re the I-14 concept as applicable in that state, Alabama's recent withdrawal from the limited-access arena has for all intents & purposes rendered that concept unattainable -- at least for the near term.  While much of the GRIP 540 corridor does line up with the various I-14 proposals past & present, the point is moot until such time as the rest of the Deep South snaps out of their recently expressed apparent desire to return to the 1950's (if not the 1850's).  At about 250K for the metro area, Columbus certainly qualifies as a traffic generator; something like an I-16 western extension along an upgraded GRIP 540 might not be out of the question -- even leaving any AL mileage out of the equation.  But such an upgrade project would take quite a chunk of change to do -- something GADOT is unlikely to have available, considering other statewide needs.  An educated guess indicates that incremental expressway-level upgrades to GRIP corridors will constitute the projects of choice within GA for the foreseeable future -- and if FL proposes any joint projects, GADOT will likely make clear that such activities will have to mesh with what is already on the ground or in the works -- such as the US 19 corridor north to at least Albany. A corridor that doesn't serve as a reasonable alternative to the perennially packed I-75 but instead diverts traffic away at or south of the FL state line won't provide much relief to the GA section of that route; running the Suncoast extension up to the US 19 state line crossing might have the potential of diverting some roadside tourist dollars to that relatively impoverished section of GA.   Now -- of course FL could unilaterally simply take the Suncoast up to I-75 on their side of the state line to simply provide a traffic diversion within their jurisdiction.  But then FL would have to consider the value of the Suncoast as simply a I-75 reliever -- but in doing so, would leave their own underserved area of Tallahassee as is; a corridor up US 19 would better serve their own state capital in the process. 

[VTGoose]

Well, since Alabama's state government seems poised to return the state to premodern times (including providing any more freeway access than is presently on the ground), it would seem to be up to the state of GA to host any corridors coming up from FL.  What GA has going for it is their GRIP program, itself a legislated (2005 under SAFETEA-LU) high-priority corridor "cluster", which technically can be any type of rural road improvement, from better-aligned 2-lane facilities all the way to expressways with occasional grade separations.  If something like the Suncoast corridor could be coordinated with the GA efforts, the above suggestion of improving US 19 from the state line to Albany (already an expressway) and then to Columbus might be feasible -- although it's likely not to be an Interstate-grade corridor but rather a standard rural expressway with the occasional interchange (at major crossing routes).  It could and likely would use the GA 300 corridor as an accessway to I-75, as well as using GRIP 520 up to I-185 in Columbus.  Since last year's signage of the "Fall Line" expressway continuum as GRIP 540 from Columbus to Augusta, it seems GA has something of a renewed commitment to the long-distance in-state corridor concept (joining 515 and 520 in that regard).  Whether that enthusiasm could and would be extended to a long-distance corridor up the west side of the state (functioning as something of an Atlanta bypass, as 540 is to some degree) is yet TBD.

What about an extension of I-77 from Columbia, SC, following roughly U.S 301 and/or a variety of other routes to hit Waycross and ending at Valdosta and I-75? If South Carolina doesn't want to play, then extend I-77 concurrently with I-20 to Augusta, then head south from there. Even if it isn't a full interstate, upgrades and new alignments to existing routes, a la the Fall Line Expressway, could provide an alternative to I-26 to I-95 and various routes back across Florida to get to I-75. This would also open up the "middle" of Georgia with better transportation options.

Bruce in Blacksburg (who tried the Fall Line and the U.S. 129/221/1 routes once)

[sparker]

Well, since Alabama's state government seems poised to return the state to premodern times (including providing any more freeway access than is presently on the ground), it would seem to be up to the state of GA to host any corridors coming up from FL.  What GA has going for it is their GRIP program, itself a legislated (2005 under SAFETEA-LU) high-priority corridor "cluster", which technically can be any type of rural road improvement, from better-aligned 2-lane facilities all the way to expressways with occasional grade separations.  If something like the Suncoast corridor could be coordinated with the GA efforts, the above suggestion of improving US 19 from the state line to Albany (already an expressway) and then to Columbus might be feasible -- although it's likely not to be an Interstate-grade corridor but rather a standard rural expressway with the occasional interchange (at major crossing routes).  It could and likely would use the GA 300 corridor as an accessway to I-75, as well as using GRIP 520 up to I-185 in Columbus.  Since last year's signage of the "Fall Line" expressway continuum as GRIP 540 from Columbus to Augusta, it seems GA has something of a renewed commitment to the long-distance in-state corridor concept (joining 515 and 520 in that regard).  Whether that enthusiasm could and would be extended to a long-distance corridor up the west side of the state (functioning as something of an Atlanta bypass, as 540 is to some degree) is yet TBD.

What about an extension of I-77 from Columbia, SC, following roughly U.S 301 and/or a variety of other routes to hit Waycross and ending at Valdosta and I-75? If South Carolina doesn't want to play, then extend I-77 concurrently with I-20 to Augusta, then head south from there. Even if it isn't a full interstate, upgrades and new alignments to existing routes, a la the Fall Line Expressway, could provide an alternative to I-26 to I-95 and various routes back across Florida to get to I-75. This would also open up the "middle" of Georgia with better transportation options.

Bruce in Blacksburg (who tried the Fall Line and the U.S. 129/221/1 routes once)

The question would be: is there a demonstrated or projected need -- clear & present or long-term -- for an additional N-S SC-FL connector between I-75 and I-95?  I know both routes can be periodic sites of congestion -- but does that yet rise to the point where a "relief" corridor -- like something between Augusta (or at least somewhere along the eastern reaches of the Fall Line) down to Valdosta (don't see why it would detour through Waycross, unless a branch down to Jacksonville were contemplated) -- essentially following US 221 and dovetailing with whatever FL decides as a Suncoast extension alignment.  That would in essence create something of a lateral "shunt" from the Interstate network in the Carolinas over to I-75 (while avoiding Atlanta and its myriad pitfalls) and FL's west coast.  Something like that (which would involve multiplexing I-77 over I-20 for a distance) might actually be worthwhile, particularly if traffic coming south on I-85 or I-77 wanted to get to that side of Florida without having to schlep over to I-95 or brave Atlanta traffic.  Frankly -- to one who has been required to deal with Atlanta regularly over the years (GF's family issues), any attempt to divert traffic away from there is welcome -- from the POV's of both the city and the driving public.  And perhaps I-95 is not LOS "C" or worse most of the time outside major cities and metro areas -- but without alternatives it'll eventually get that way. 

Now the GA GRIP system seems like a "kissing cousin" to the original California Freeway & Expressway system -- the goal was to connect county seats and towns above 10K population (the original CA criteria was 5K back in '59) with safe and efficient roads -- obviously a worthwhile goal.  But it could -- with a bit of "massaging" -- be configured in a way to do what needs to be done regarding Atlanta diversion.  But GDOT seems to be occupied with dealing with the intra-Atlanta commute situation that's a current pressing problem; expanding and enhancing the radial commute routes in the area (e.g. GA 316) to handle ever-increasing volume appears to suck up much of the agency's resources.  Diversion would certainly help -- but whether state funds can be redirected to that type of project versus the present existing metro requirements is less certain.  The fact that over the past couple of decades enough capital was found to get much of the Fall Line/GRIP 540 corridor completed (now, if they can get a Macon bypass online......) is in itself promising -- but the many abortive attempts for an outer Atlanta ring -- shot down by NIMBY reaction -- seems to indicate that there are limits as to what can be done.  And a corridor concept clearly aimed at expediting traffic from the Carolinas to Florida might not be received as something to prioritize (unless a halfway decent case can be made for sucking $$ out of tourists' pocketbooks via provision of roadside facilities and attractions).   Upshot: not a bad idea -- but selling it within the state might be an uphill battle!

[D-Dey65]

^ Despite outward appearances, Dothan's a dying city.  They saw a route through town as a way to revitalize the city, so it's really not shocking that they supported the highway.  Many (most?) cities that oppose such highway projects are NOT dying.

Then when they do get the highway to rebuild the city, several decades later the new city wants to convert it back to boulevard status hence Syracuse, Dallas, and now Tampa.  Oh yeah, NYC with I-895 now being history.

All of which are screwing themselves up if and when they do. And what road is Tampa seeking to downgrade to boulevard status?

Having said that, I still don't like the current plans.

[sparker]

And what road is Tampa seeking to downgrade to boulevard status?

That would be I-275 for the first several miles north of the I-4 interchange.  At present, it's the usual suspects (this effort appeared on their "top ten" list of suggested teardowns) pressing for this; it's unclear if there is currently much in the way of official or broad local support for this action.

[D-Dey65]

And what road is Tampa seeking to downgrade to boulevard status?

That would be I-275 for the first several miles north of the I-4 interchange.  At present, it's the usual suspects (this effort appeared on their "top ten" list of suggested teardowns) pressing for this; it's unclear if there is currently much in the way of official or broad local support for this action.

I reiterate; They're screwing things up for themselves by pulling shit like this!  Where do they think all the traffic on I-275 is going to go?!

[Rothman]

I-75 to I-4? 

[D-Dey65]

I-75 to I-4? 

And they want us to think that's going to make things better? Not a chance!

[roadman65]

I heard from a reliable source that the DOT is going to opt to add more lanes and not consider the downgrade as a public opinion study was done and people support widening I-275.

[sprjus4]

I heard from a reliable source that the DOT is going to opt to add more lanes and not consider the downgrade as a public opinion study was done and people support widening I-275.

Good. The BR/T advocacy groups have failed once again.

[mgk920]

I need to see either one extended into Georgia and around Atlanta as another Atlanta bypass for the snowbirds. Hopefully both Florida and Georgia could work in collaboration to get this started. It would be the real Georgia-Florida highway. Plus either route would provide hurricane relief during evacuations

I would love to see this changed to more of the US 19 corridor to the east of Tallahassee and then perhaps kick into the US 27 corridor up Georgia.  That would bypass the extremely heavy traffic on I-75 (where there is always construction and always at least one accident stopping traffic for miles when I go through).  It could bend back to I-75 from Rome to Calhoun, and then somewhere around Dalton to Cleveland, TN (GA 71 looks like a straight shot) bypass I-75 going to Chattanooga.

I would also include I-185 in the routing, seeing that it's already a spur from I-85 to Columbus. But other than that, I love the idea! Too bad FL and GA will never go for it, because they don't see eye-to-eye on anything.

Also, the I-85/185 interchange is designed with ghost ramps to extend I-185 northward for what appears to me to be a future major connection into the US 27 corridor towards Chattanooga.  I can also foresee a need for a much improved free-flowing through traffic feed into I-185 at the north end of Fort Benning.

Next up, a major tunnel (six or even eight lanes???) to bypass Monteagle Hill?





Mike

[sprjus4]

Also, the I-85/185 interchange is designed with ghost ramps to extend I-185 northward for what appears to me to be a future major connection into the US 27 corridor towards Chattanooga.

The intent for that highway extension was merely to be La Grange bypass, then terminate back at US-27 north of the city.

That was the original proposal at least... haven't heard of anything further north.

[NE2]

It appears that the La Grange Bypass has been cancelled: http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/documents/GRIP/Facts/US27FactSheet.pdf
Instead Hamilton Road is being four-laned.

[Plutonic Panda]

Here's and update regarding this and the other toll roads proposed. At the very least they should provide the ROW needed to build them in the future.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2020/09/23/still-no-answers-task-forces-looking-into-proposed-florida-toll-roads/5864388002/

[The Ghostbuster]

It could be that Florida is experiencing "toll road fatigue". On the other hand, how else will the state build the roads, regardless of whether they are wanted or needed?

[sprjus4]

^

The Suncoast Pkwy extension may be a viable alternative to I-75, particularly on peak weekends, considering it would be built to full interstate standards. Perhaps an 75 or 80 mph toll road speed limit?

[sparker]

Here's and update regarding this and the other toll roads proposed. At the very least they should provide the ROW needed to build them in the future.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2020/09/23/still-no-answers-task-forces-looking-into-proposed-florida-toll-roads/5864388002/

From Crystal River northward, any new-terrain facility, tolled or not, would have to traverse miles and miles of swampland, which would pose (a) exceptionally high construction costs, and (b) environmental issues due to destruction of the wetlands or, at minimum, interruption of the natural swamp ebb and flow.  The only reason US 19/98 is there is that it followed a now-defunct railroad grade from Chiefland to Perry; the only reason it's a divided 4-lane is that it used that RR grade for expansion from the original 2 lanes.  The only practical path toward Tallahassee is via an upgrade of the present US 19 facility with town bypasses -- and applying tolls to an existing facility, upgrades or not, probably wouldn't fly politically in FL.   The Suncoast has probably gone as far as it will go in its current configuration; any northward facilities will likely be freeway upgrades of US 19.  As far as actually getting to Tallahassee, the vocal opposition in Jefferson County will likely mean any toll facility will likely parallel US 19 from US 27 up to I-10 and on to the GA state line.  But I don't foresee any toll facility extending south of Perry in any case; a freeway along US 19/98 from Perry to Crystal Springs would connect that to the Suncoast northern terminus.  Putting a toll facility in to augment an existing facility might be a politically feasible idea, but tolling an upgraded existing facility, particularly one that functions as the "lifeline" of a region, has a minimal if any chance of being implemented.  If indeed a tolled facility is in the initial planning stages, it'll probably be reconfigured as an extension of FL 589 up to the Crystal River area,  along with a north FL limited-access facility north of Perry.  What's in between those facilities will probably be upgraded a mile or two at a time as FDOT budgets allow. 

[DeaconG]

Here's and update regarding this and the other toll roads proposed. At the very least they should provide the ROW needed to build them in the future.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2020/09/23/still-no-answers-task-forces-looking-into-proposed-florida-toll-roads/5864388002/

From Crystal River northward, any new-terrain facility, tolled or not, would have to traverse miles and miles of swampland, which would pose (a) exceptionally high construction costs, and (b) environmental issues due to destruction of the wetlands or, at minimum, interruption of the natural swamp ebb and flow.  The only reason US 19/98 is there is that it followed a now-defunct railroad grade from Chiefland to Perry; the only reason it's a divided 4-lane is that it used that RR grade for expansion from the original 2 lanes.  The only practical path toward Tallahassee is via an upgrade of the present US 19 facility with town bypasses -- and applying tolls to an existing facility, upgrades or not, probably wouldn't fly politically in FL.   The Suncoast has probably gone as far as it will go in its current configuration; any northward facilities will likely be freeway upgrades of US 19.  As far as actually getting to Tallahassee, the vocal opposition in Jefferson County will likely mean any toll facility will likely parallel US 19 from US 27 up to I-10 and on to the GA state line.  But I don't foresee any toll facility extending south of Perry in any case; a freeway along US 19/98 from Perry to Crystal Springs would connect that to the Suncoast northern terminus.  Putting a toll facility in to augment an existing facility might be a politically feasible idea, but tolling an upgraded existing facility, particularly one that functions as the "lifeline" of a region, has a minimal if any chance of being implemented.  If indeed a tolled facility is in the initial planning stages, it'll probably be reconfigured as an extension of FL 589 up to the Crystal River area,  along with a north FL limited-access facility north of Perry.  What's in between those facilities will probably be upgraded a mile or two at a time as FDOT budgets allow. 

US 19/98 is already underutilized, a toll facility would go unused as folks stay on 19/98. This is why there's been a long-standing proposal to extend Florida's Turnpike to just south of Perry (and I wish they'd get on it!), so I don't think extending the Suncoast is going to gain any traction.