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NY 135 to I-287 Redesignation?

Started by TML, February 28, 2018, 12:49:56 PM

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Duke87

Quote from: vdeane on March 05, 2018, 07:36:19 PM
Isn't Europe more unionized than the US?

Yes, but AFAIK their unions have not managed to negotiate ludicrous work rules like some construction unions in NY have.

Some of these ludicrous work rules are codified into laws and regulations on the national level, which is part of why costs elsewhere in the country are still higher than they are internationally, just less extremely so than in NY.


Of course, this is an oversimplification. It's not just work rules. There's all sorts of other administrative red tape like Buy American requirements and overly specific construction specs that weigh costs down.

Then there's the litigation culture in the US, which in turn is owed at least in part to the American common law system. Note how the UK, also a common law nation, also has higher construction costs than are typical elsewhere in Europe. Civil law countries are able to build things a lot less expensively.

If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.


Beltway

#26
Quote from: vdeane on March 05, 2018, 07:15:46 PM
Tunnels cost a LOT more in the US than in Europe.  Why, I don't know, but they do.

The U.S. hasn't yet needed to build a 16-mile-long underwater tunnel.
So how can we know what it would cost here?  (civil engineers could compile a detailed and accurate estimate as I have said).

The Gotthard Base Tunnel came in at about equal to $8 billion USD in 2016, a 35-mile-long twin railroad tunnels under the Alps passing as much as 1.4 mile underground.  It took about 16 years to build but the Swiss are pleased with it and how it has speeded up rail travel.
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Bobby5280

#27
Quote from: BeltwayThe U.S. hasn't yet needed to build a 16-mile-long underwater tunnel.
So how can we know what it would cost here?  (civil engineers could compile a detailed and accurate estimate as I have said).

Take a look at a couple of US tunnel projects in progress. The Alaskan Way Viaduct took 16 years of legal battles before it finally broke ground. It's just a 2 mile long tunnel with only 4 lanes. The final cost is estimated at $4.25 billion, quite a lot more than the original $2.8 billion estimate.

The 2nd Avenue Subway in Manhattan is planned to be 8.5 miles long. This project has nearly a century of developmental history. Its first 2 mile phase (now open) cost $4.45 billion. The whole thing is currently estimated to cost $17 billion, but it may be well past the year 2030 before it is completed. So who knows what the final cost might be if it ever gets finished.

Quote from: AlpsUnions

Unions do play their part in running up project costs. But Unions are far from the only culprit driving up these costs so much. Unions are by far the most popular scapegoat though. Lots of white collar people play their part running up the tab too. Some of it can be chalked up to "good ole boy network" lining of the pockets via all sorts of procedural stunts. Any big project to build roads, rail or even things like a dam is a tremendous opportunity for all sorts of connected people to get paid.

Perhaps the most obvious problem is the whole legal-regulatory red tape process ensaring many of these projects for years (or even decades) before the first shovels start moving dirt. And that's if the project even survives. The US has more than a few dead end highway stubs for roads and bridges that were never built. Public input, lawsuits, environmental review, political games with funding and other crap I'm not remembering can have these projects moving in circles. Detailed engineering plans hundreds of pages long can be scrapped, throwing everything back to square one by any of those issues.

I can be sympathetic to some of the NIMBY issues that accompany these projects. The highway revolts of the 1960's and 1970's had their reasons for happening. But now we're at another extreme. This nation no longer has any big goals (like putting a man on the moon). Our culture has grown very selfish, angry and divided. I'm really troubled by the extreme living cost inflation and mass scale gentrification taking place in America's biggest cities. It could lead to us having a Japanese style crash in population growth and a hell of a lot of social upheaval. Urban highways couldn't do this kind of damage.

Meanwhile the rest of the globe is not standing still. China is getting far more bang for its buck building new highways, bridges, tunnels, high speed rail lines, etc. They plan to spend $5 trillion on infrastructure projects in dozens of countries to build up a 21st Century "Silk Road." They intend to move the center of world commerce away from North America and Western Europe over to the Far East.

This nation has to get its eye on the ball when it comes to infrastructure. If we can't figure a way out of this problem we're not just going to see nations like China threatening to supersede us. We might see a bunch of our big companies move their headquarters from the US to places overseas. World history has seen many empires come and go. Most erode from within.

Beltway

#28
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 05, 2018, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: BeltwayThe U.S. hasn't yet needed to build a 16-mile-long underwater tunnel.
So how can we know what it would cost here?  (civil engineers could compile a detailed and accurate estimate as I have said).
Take a look at a couple of US tunnel projects in progress. The Alaskan Way Viaduct took 16 years of legal battles before it finally broke ground. It's just a 2 mile long tunnel with only 4 lanes. The final cost is estimated at $4.25 billion, quite a lot more than the original $2.8 billion estimate.

$1.7 billion is the cost of the tunnel itself.  The entire project with associated boulevard and freeway improvements is $2.9 billion.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 05, 2018, 10:23:12 PM
The 2nd Avenue Subway in Manhattan is planned to be 8.5 miles long. This project has nearly a century of developmental history. Its first 2 mile phase (now open) cost $4.45 billion. The whole thing is currently estimated to cost $17 billion, but it may be well past the year 2030 before it is completed. So who knows what the final cost might be if it ever gets finished.

Neither of these projects can be compared to an open waters tunnel.  Both are highly complex tunnels in highly challenging urban areas with complex connections to other roads (AWV) and subway lines (2nd).  A subway line includes stations which are each very complex.

The Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link which I cited earlier is a much better comparison, with a very long run of similar tunnel construction.
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Rothman

I always find the blaming of unions pretty darned silly, for management has to sign off the contract.  Management agreed to the union's demands; it is their fault for not holding the unions to responsibility, if indeed the unions are raising costs inappropriately.  After all, management are the ones hiring the labor and not the other way around!  No reason for them to agree to an unaffordable price.

Give them the Hostess treatment -- don't do the project at all if it is too expensive.

I also think the bashing of unions by everyday joes (i.e., non-management employees in any sector) is stupefying.  The American worker has been worse off since business management won the war on unions, not better.  I know nonunionized white-collar workers that would kill for the benefits my unionized factory worker grandfather had.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:38:32 AM
I always find the blaming of unions pretty darned silly, for management has to sign off the contract.  Management agreed to the union's demands; it is their fault for not holding the unions to responsibility, if indeed the unions are raising costs inappropriately.
Give them the Hostess treatment -- don't do the project at all if it is too expensive.
I also think the bashing of unions by everyday joes (i.e., non-management employees in any sector) is stupefying.  The American worker has been worse off since business management won the war on unions, not better.  I know nonunionized white-collar workers that would kill for the benefits my unionized factory worker grandfather had. 

I have no real issue with private sector unions.  Their national share of private sector jobs is only about 7% currently, and continues to edge downward.  I don't believe that workers should be forced to join a union in order to qualify for a job.  Engineering and construction contractors and subcontractors who build these transportation projects are private sector employees.  I don't think that unionization can be blamed for the high costs of projects today.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 10:44:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:38:32 AM
I always find the blaming of unions pretty darned silly, for management has to sign off the contract.  Management agreed to the union's demands; it is their fault for not holding the unions to responsibility, if indeed the unions are raising costs inappropriately.
Give them the Hostess treatment -- don't do the project at all if it is too expensive.
I also think the bashing of unions by everyday joes (i.e., non-management employees in any sector) is stupefying.  The American worker has been worse off since business management won the war on unions, not better.  I know nonunionized white-collar workers that would kill for the benefits my unionized factory worker grandfather had. 

I have no real issue with private sector unions.  Their national share of private sector jobs is only about 7% currently, and continues to edge downward.  I don't believe that workers should be forced to join a union in order to qualify for a job.  Engineering and construction contractors and subcontractors who build these transportation projects are private sector employees.  I don't think that unionization can be blamed for the high costs of projects today.

Even if it's not required, you should always be able to be in a union. Stop & Shop (a grocery store, for those not in this area) has a union, and one of its most useful rules is that you can't be scheduled for fewer than 15 hours per week except by choice (e.g. too busy for other reasons) or extreme circumstances like snow or power outages. Many other retail businesses like Walmart don't even allow unions.

Note: Stop & Shop's main competitor in this area, Market Basket, is unique in that it doesn't try to make as much profit as possible; working conditions are good even without a union, and there was even a strike when management, under new ownership, tried to change it so that it was profit-motivated.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Rothman

No formal union, I suppose, but they were definitely organized at Mahket Basket.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
Plus the union is required to represent even non-union employees for grievances and disciplinary hearings.  There's really no workplace difference between union and non-union, other than people paying dues and people who pay a fee (in agency shop states) or freeload (in right to work states).  That's why union membership plummets when states go "right to work".  Why would someone pay dues when they can get all the benefits they care about for free?  The only reason would be, because if everyone did that, then the union would die, but most people don't think that way.  The subsidized summer picnic and holiday party tickets are less than the dues costs (naturally), so nobody would keep paying just for that, and I'm not sure how many people actually use the member benefits program discounts.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.

It doesn't benefit the persons who don't want to join a union, because they won't be working there if they have a closed shop.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.

It doesn't benefit the persons who don't want to join a union, because they won't be working there if they have a closed shop.
Right.  That's the point:  You want the better benefits we negotiate for everyone?  Join up.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2018, 01:04:17 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
Plus the union is required to represent even non-union employees for grievances and disciplinary hearings.  There's really no workplace difference between union and non-union, other than people paying dues and people who pay a fee (in agency shop states) or freeload (in right to work states).  That's why union membership plummets when states go "right to work".  Why would someone pay dues when they can get all the benefits they care about for free?  The only reason would be, because if everyone did that, then the union would die, but most people don't think that way.  The subsidized summer picnic and holiday party tickets are less than the dues costs (naturally), so nobody would keep paying just for that, and I'm not sure how many people actually use the member benefits program discounts.
You forgot to say that in Right to Work states, they have lower salaries and benefits due to the lack of unions. But, hey, they bought into the myth that profits trickle down to employees, so they made their bed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 05:28:22 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
It doesn't benefit the persons who don't want to join a union, because they won't be working there if they have a closed shop.
Right.  That's the point:  You want the better benefits we negotiate for everyone?  Join up.

Many people don't want the union period.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 05:29:48 PM
You forgot to say that in Right to Work states, they have lower salaries and benefits due to the lack of unions. But, hey, they bought into the myth that profits trickle down to employees, so they made their bed.

Logical fallacy:  uniformly declarative statement.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 05:28:22 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
It doesn't benefit the persons who don't want to join a union, because they won't be working there if they have a closed shop.
Right.  That's the point:  You want the better benefits we negotiate for everyone?  Join up.

Many people don't want the union period.
Then they can work for less, which they do.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 05:28:22 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 10:58:02 AM
The whole reason behind the closed shop was that all employees benefit from the negotiated benefits and salaries that the union was able to get from the contract.  Therefore, since you benefitted from the union's actions that were funded through dues, mandatory membership was actually understandable.
It doesn't benefit the persons who don't want to join a union, because they won't be working there if they have a closed shop.
Right.  That's the point:  You want the better benefits we negotiate for everyone?  Join up.
Many people don't want the union period.
Then they can work for less, which they do.

Logical fallacy:  uniformly declarative statement.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

vdeane

Technically closed shop has been illegal for decades nationwide.  What we have here in NY (and other states that aren't right to work) is "agency shop", where people don't have to join the union but do have to pay an "agency fee" to the union covering the expenses associated with representing them (for PEF-represented state employees, the agency fee and dues are exactly the same, and both are taken by direct paycheck deduction, so there's no reason right now not to join unless you're making a political statement by not joining).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Beltway

#43
Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2018, 07:07:15 PM
Technically closed shop has been illegal for decades nationwide.  What we have here in NY (and other states that aren't right to work) is "agency shop", where people don't have to join the union but do have to pay an "agency fee" to the union covering the expenses associated with representing them (for PEF-represented state employees, the agency fee and dues are exactly the same, and both are taken by direct paycheck deduction, so there's no reason right now not to join unless you're making a political statement by not joining).

How do you know what all the "other states that aren't right to work" do in this regard?  When I worked at PennDOT in the 1970s, no union fees (AFSCME) were extracted from non-union members.  Public sector unions is one of the reasons why I got a job with VDH&T and left PA, as collective bargaining units for state and local public employees are prohibited by law in Virginia.  Never regretted the decision.

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title40.1/chapter4/section40.1-57.2/

§ 40.1-57.2. Prohibition against collective bargaining.

No state, county, municipal, or like governmental officer, agent or governing body is vested with or possesses any authority to recognize any labor union or other employee association as a bargaining agent of any public officers or employees, or to collectively bargain or enter into any collective bargaining contract with any such union or association or its agents with respect to any matter relating to them or their employment or service.
...

Wildcat strikes are a termination level offense for state employees.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Rothman

Heh.  Couldn't get a promotion in PA?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Alps

Enough off-topic (and political) discussion of unions.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
Heh.  Couldn't get a promotion in PA?

Got 2 promotions and was a member of the you-know-what.  Main reason was all the problems PennDOT was having with funding and road conditions, and I wanted to be somewhere where there was lots of interesting highways and highway projects.  My parents lived in Alexandria so Virginia was a logical place to consider, and in the mid-1970s the really prominent construction projects were the Capital Beltway widening, the Shirley Highway reconstruction in Arlington, the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike widening, the parallel HRBT, the RMA expressway system, I-195, and the I-77 tunnels and Fancy Gap.   Soon-coming prominent projects were I-664, I-264 parallel Downtown Tunnel and Berkley Bridge, I-95 widening Ashland-Triangle, I-66 inside the Beltway, I-295 northern loop, and the 28 miles of I-95 new construction in Southside where my new job was as a construction inspector.  Very interesting place for someone interested in highways.

The Philadelphia area where I was located did finally get major missing links finished on I-95, I-476 and I-676, and 18 miles of the Turnpike widened, and the Schuylkill Expressway completely rehabbed, which provided a massive improvements to the regional highway system, but that was in the period 1988-1992, long after I left, and in the mid-1970s, other than finishing the last 4 miles of I-95, nobody really had a clue as to whether the others would ever get built, and even that section of I-95 wasn't yet under construction and there were some questions about whether that would be completed, due to trying to devise a design to cross a sludge basin in the NEPA era.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

mgk920

Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on March 01, 2018, 05:06:26 PM
The problem is I don't think 287 can end at Merrick Road like 135 can. Even if you extended it to the Wantagh State Parkway, the interstate highway designation I don't think can end at that.

Someone who's better on AASHTO rules can answer, but I think 135 going from Merrick Road to Rye is more likely.

'NY 287'?

:hmmm:

Mike

Rothman

Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 11:35:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
Heh.  Couldn't get a promotion in PA?

Got 2 promotions and was a member of the you-know-what.  Main reason was all the problems PennDOT was having with funding and road conditions, and I wanted to be somewhere where there was lots of interesting highways and highway projects.  My parents lived in Alexandria so Virginia was a logical place to consider, and in the mid-1970s the really prominent construction projects were the Capital Beltway widening, the Shirley Highway reconstruction in Arlington, the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike widening, the parallel HRBT, the RMA expressway system, I-195, and the I-77 tunnels and Fancy Gap.   Soon-coming prominent projects were I-664, I-264 parallel Downtown Tunnel and Berkley Bridge, I-95 widening Ashland-Triangle, I-66 inside the Beltway, I-295 northern loop, and the 28 miles of I-95 new construction in Southside where my new job was as a construction inspector.  Very interesting place for someone interested in highways.

The Philadelphia area where I was located did finally get major missing links finished on I-95, I-476 and I-676, and 18 miles of the Turnpike widened, and the Schuylkill Expressway completely rehabbed, which provided a massive improvements to the regional highway system, but that was in the period 1988-1992, long after I left, and in the mid-1970s, other than finishing the last 4 miles of I-95, nobody really had a clue as to whether the others would ever get built, and even that section of I-95 wasn't yet under construction and there were some questions about whether that would be completed, due to trying to devise a design to cross a sludge basin in the NEPA era.
Were you in a pension system in PA? How did that transfer over to VA, if at all?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Beltway

Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2018, 12:54:32 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 06, 2018, 11:35:06 PM
[... snipped ...]
Were you in a pension system in PA? How did that transfer over to VA, if at all?

They have a civil service system that is modeled after the federal system.  All state civil service employees were enrolled in the retirement system, the same SERS that they have today, the Pennsylvania State Employees' Retirement System.

I didn't check about how to transfer it, as I wanted the money cash-out, I was young (24) and that is what I wanted to do.  I bought a 3-year-old Chevy Nova with it a year later, as the former car was wearing out.

The Virginia Retirement System (VRS) has a provision to purchase former government (federal, state or local) service time up to 48 months, and in the late 2000s I did that, it was the same pre-tax 5% monthly deduction rate that is used for the pension itself, every month for the 35 months.  Great investment!
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)



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