US-41 Interstate Conversion

[merrycilantro]

US 41 becomes I-43W, and I-43 becomes I-43E.

Problem solved!!   

You know that really wouldn't be a bad idea, seeing as how they'd have their origins and termini in both Milwaukee and Green Bay, respectively. I guess that would only work if it were shorter and had Twin Cities that were vying for the Major Route Number...

But I agree, that would be "Problem solved" as well!

[SEWIGuy]

No actually that would be worse.  Split interstates currently serve "twin cities" in the same metropolitan area....they don't run from one metropolitan area to another.  There will be massive confusion with that number being on two different highways that run to and from the same places.

[hbelkins]

No actually that would be worse.  Split interstates currently serve "twin cities" in the same metropolitan area....they don't run from one metropolitan area to another.  There will be massive confusion with that number being on two different highways that run to and from the same places.

No there wouldn't. There's no confusion with US 25E and 25W, or US 31E and 31W in Kentucky and Tennessee. The only confusion is when some uninformed person makes reference to "25 East" or some such.

[merrycilantro]

Upon further consideration, I do agree. What we're shooting for is 55, to alleviate confusion and such. 43-E and 43-W would confuse. And there aren't enough 4-lane highways to go from US41 to I-43 should a person get onto 41 thinking it was 43-E hoping to go from Milwaukee to Sheboygan. I know from personal experience. WIS 23 sucks for the time being between Fond du Lac and Sheboygan.

Talk of 43-E/43-W is a moot point anyway, because AASHTO did do away with the split interstates like that how many years ago to avoid confusion. I highly doubt they'd bring one back just because one number doesn't go between 2 others. Now how hard does Badgerland want to fight? I'd like to reiterate, we could just as easily give the finger to IDOT, sign 55 from the IL state line to GB, and see what happens. I-76 comes to mind. So does I-74 (regrettably), I-84, I-86 and I-88 come to mind, where there's an Eastern one and a Western one. What'd be the difference there? (besides not being at opposite ends of the country)

[InterstateNG]

Why does it need to be 55?

[mgk920]

Why does it need to be 55?

It's being pushed hard by business interests in the Green Bay area.

Mike

[InterstateNG]

That doesn't answer my question.  And if the answer is "prestige", they need to try again.

[gbgoose]

Why does it need to be 55?

Money - or at least the perception of more money for the area.  Living in Green Bay, this area thinks having an interstate route from New Orleans to Green Bay could attract more business to this part of the state vs. having say an I-41 or a 3-digit interstate designation.  Whether it's right, I'm not sure, but that's just the gut feel in the limited information I've heard.

[JREwing78]

That doesn't answer my question.  And if the answer is "prestige", they need to try again.

"Prestige" is the entire point of doing this. It's not like US-41 functions any differently as a highway with blue interstate shields on the highway signs, or that local residents would confuse US-41 for a winding 2-lane back road. The entire point is to signal to businesses that NE and SE Wisconsin is an important region, and in particular the Fox Valley cities (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, Green Bay).

And, since "Prestige" is the entire point, why would you settle for a 3di or some minor footnote route? Certainly in pre-interstate days, this was a major enough area to merit a US-x1 designation connecting the UP to Florida. What about the area doesn't merit a major north-south interstate highway designation?

[hbelkins]

Why does it need to be 55?

Money - or at least the perception of more money for the area.  Living in Green Bay, this area thinks having an interstate route from New Orleans to Green Bay could attract more business to this part of the state vs. having say an I-41 or a 3-digit interstate designation.  Whether it's right, I'm not sure, but that's just the gut feel in the limited information I've heard.

If it's vital that the route from NO to GB have the same number (which it really won't, since no one wishing to make the fastest trip possible would take I-55 from Memphis to Chicago, they'd use I-57 instead), then the US 66 purists will probably go apoplectic because this corridor has one number and the legendary Chicago to LA corridor uses four separate interstate numbers (55, 44, 40 and 15).

[merrycilantro]

That doesn't answer my question.  And if the answer is "prestige", they need to try again.

"Prestige" is the entire point of doing this. It's not like US-41 functions any differently as a highway with blue interstate shields on the highway signs, or that local residents would confuse US-41 for a winding 2-lane back road. The entire point is to signal to businesses that NE and SE Wisconsin is an important region, and in particular the Fox Valley cities (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, Green Bay).

And, since "Prestige" is the entire point, why would you settle for a 3di or some minor footnote route? Certainly in pre-interstate days, this was a major enough area to merit a US-x1 designation connecting the UP to Florida. What about the area doesn't merit a major north-south interstate highway designation?

Very True. 41 and 51 go through Wisconsin. So if in 1918 (circa) they thought Wisconsin worthy enough of a US X1 number (let alone 2), then why wouldn't we be worthy of a modern day I-X5? Why waste another number by making it an intrastate?

[english si]

If it's vital that the route from NO to GB have the same number (which it really won't, since no one wishing to make the fastest trip possible would take I-55 from Memphis to Chicago, they'd use I-57 instead)

But for NO to GB, you'd not go via Chicago, using I-39 and I-43.

[SEWIGuy]

That doesn't answer my question.  And if the answer is "prestige", they need to try again.

"Prestige" is the entire point of doing this. It's not like US-41 functions any differently as a highway with blue interstate shields on the highway signs, or that local residents would confuse US-41 for a winding 2-lane back road. The entire point is to signal to businesses that NE and SE Wisconsin is an important region, and in particular the Fox Valley cities (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, Green Bay).

And, since "Prestige" is the entire point, why would you settle for a 3di or some minor footnote route? Certainly in pre-interstate days, this was a major enough area to merit a US-x1 designation connecting the UP to Florida. What about the area doesn't merit a major north-south interstate highway designation?

Very True. 41 and 51 go through Wisconsin. So if in 1918 (circa) they thought Wisconsin worthy enough of a US X1 number (let alone 2), then why wouldn't we be worthy of a modern day I-X5? Why waste another number by making it an intrastate?

Actually Wisconsin has three USX1 numbers....US-61.

[NE2]

Question: if you're going from downtown Milwaukee to downtown Green Bay, are both routes about equal? Or is one significantly better? If the former, it makes sense to give both routes two-digit numbers to tell unfamiliar drivers that either route works.

[mgk920]

Question: if you're going from downtown Milwaukee to downtown Green Bay, are both routes about equal? Or is one significantly better? If the former, it makes sense to give both routes two-digit numbers to tell unfamiliar drivers that either route works.

I-43 is definitely the better way to go between DT Milwaukee and the Green Bay area.  West of about Miller Park, Milwaukeeans often use US 41 (at least on Packers game days).  Also, the population *between* metro Milwaukee and Green Bay is several orders of magnitude higher along the US 41 corridor than it is along I-43 and US 41 thus carries significantly more traffic (remember that lengthy parts of US 41 are now being upgraded to six lanes while all of I-43 north of Milwaukee County is only four lanes).

Why was I-43 built where it was back in the 1970s?  The exact same reason why CalTrans built I-5 through the middle of nowhere in the Central Valley instead of upgrading the existing four lanes US (now CA) 99 - it was much faster and cheaper to do a new-ROW than upgrade the existing highway (parts of CA 99 are still substandard) and the last substandard parts of US 41 are only now being addressed.  US 41 has been all four lanes since the mid-late 1960s.

Mike

[NE2]

Sounds like a three-digit might make the most sense then. Make it obvious to through traffic that I-43 is a better route.

[texaskdog]

The whole "prestige" thing may have made sense back in the old days when cities were afraid of being off the beaten path, but in 2012 it really means little.  If I-35 through Austin was I-31 it wouldn't change anyone's opinion.  We treat Mopac (Texas Loop 1) as an equal to I-35 anyway.

[merrycilantro]

First of all, how do you quote multiple entries at the same time?

Secondly, NE2, did you fully read the response directly before yours, as to which freeway was better than the other? I'm just curious as to why, after the explanation saying the US41 corridor is being (or is) upgraded to 6 lanes, while 43 is only 4 from MKE to GB, and that there's a greater population along the US41 corridor as opposed to I-43, why would you then turn around and say make it a 3di...

It's true, you go from Milwaukee to GB, on either freeway you're looking at about 2 hours. There is little difference time-wise. The upgrade may mean more to Suburban (especially Western suburbs/exurbs) Milwaukeeans than to Inner-City Milwaukeeans. Be that as it may, should you CHOOSE to go, say from New Orleans to Green Bay as english si, via 55 to 39 to 43, the logical thing to do then would be to use the current US41 corridor, once you come up the Rock Freeway (43) into Milwaukee, avoid the bypass and downtown and just shoot straight up, because you're looking at traffic jams should you decide to venture into the Marquette. Thus, a 2di would be the logical choice.

In that respect, a more radical approach would be, Renumber 39 and 43 to the Hale Interchange as 55, current 55 as a X55(odd number) into Chicago, and let traffic go up 39/43(/41?).  AASHTO or FHWA or the respective states' DOTs could choose whether or not to number 41 or 43 as 55, makes no difference there...but then it saves on some traffic in Chicagoland But if IDOT won't even slap a 55 on an existing freeway from Chicago to state line, I highly doubt they'd be game for that.

SEWI Guy, I completely omitted US61! *smack my head* Duh... thank you for the clarification I've tried, since my first entry, to not put my foot in my mouth again, which is why you'll see a bunch of "correct me if i'm wrong's" and such. I rarely venture to the West Side of Wisconsin however, and it had completely slipped my mind.

Economics seems to be what's on the politicians' minds. And if the whole "Interstate freeway will attract business to the area" concept is, in fact, true, then give 41 the 55 designation, as this population center (as opposed to the I-43 corridor population center) is more important, IMHO. Perhaps I am just biased as this is my hometown. Call it what you want. Just don't call it a 3di. And please don't give us yet another Intrastate. Either one defeats the purpose.

[SEWIGuy]

SEWI Guy, I completely omitted US61! *smack my head* Duh... thank you for the clarification I've tried, since my first entry, to not put my foot in my mouth again, which is why you'll see a bunch of "correct me if i'm wrong's" and such. I rarely venture to the West Side of Wisconsin however, and it had completely slipped my mind.

Well it is an easy mistake.  It was a major USH, but serves a relatively minor purpose in Wisconsin.  If you were driving from Dubuque to the Twin Cities, you certainly wouldn't take US-61 to get there...unless you had the time to take the more scenic route.  US-52 is the much better alternative....but that wasn't around when US-61 was routed.

[NE2]

Secondly, NE2, did you fully read the response directly before yours, as to which freeway was better than the other? I'm just curious as to why, after the explanation saying the US41 corridor is being (or is) upgraded to 6 lanes, while 43 is only 4 from MKE to GB, and that there's a greater population along the US41 corridor as opposed to I-43, why would you then turn around and say make it a 3di...

Because the purpose of Interstate numbering is to help those who are not familiar with the area. If I-43 is a better route, then it makes sense to tell drivers that by not also giving US 41 a two-digit number. People going to Appleton and such will take US 41 no matter what it's numbered. People going to Green Bay will either do whatever their satnav tells them to do, or look at the map and determine which route looks better. Currently that's I-43 by default, since it's an Interstate. If US 41 also gets a 2DI designation, both will look roughly equivalent, and about half the drivers will choose each route. But if I-43 is significantly better, this is less than ideal. Numbering it I-243 will show that it's a good route, but not necessarily the best. The point about traffic coming up I-43 from Beloit is interesting, but from that direction it would be clear that I-243 bypasses downtown Milwaukee and may in fact be the better route during rush hours. (Assuming you don't use US 151 or WIS 26 and bypass Milwaukee entirely.)

US-52 is the much better alternative....but that wasn't around when US-61 was routed.

US 55 went Dubuque to Minneapolis in 1926. 61 may have been better road quality-wise though in the early days.

[Stratuscaster]

I wonder if some folks just get hung up on the whole "3di as a loop, bypass, or spur" thing. US 41 certainly wouldn't be a spur, and it's not really a loop either - although I suppose it could be considered the "Lake Winnebago Loop."

[hobsini2]

Secondly, NE2, did you fully read the response directly before yours, as to which freeway was better than the other? I'm just curious as to why, after the explanation saying the US41 corridor is being (or is) upgraded to 6 lanes, while 43 is only 4 from MKE to GB, and that there's a greater population along the US41 corridor as opposed to I-43, why would you then turn around and say make it a 3di...

Because the purpose of Interstate numbering is to help those who are not familiar with the area. If I-43 is a better route, then it makes sense to tell drivers that by not also giving US 41 a two-digit number. People going to Appleton and such will take US 41 no matter what it's numbered. People going to Green Bay will either do whatever their satnav tells them to do, or look at the map and determine which route looks better. Currently that's I-43 by default, since it's an Interstate. If US 41 also gets a 2DI designation, both will look roughly equivalent, and about half the drivers will choose each route. But if I-43 is significantly better, this is less than ideal. Numbering it I-243 will show that it's a good route, but not necessarily the best. The point about traffic coming up I-43 from Beloit is interesting, but from that direction it would be clear that I-243 bypasses downtown Milwaukee and may in fact be the better route during rush hours. (Assuming you don't use US 151 or WIS 26 and bypass Milwaukee entirely.)

Bare with me this is a bit long.

NE2, just because the 2 downtown are "better accessed" by I-43 than US 41 doesn't make it a better route. Of course if the Belt Frwy was built back in the 70s like it was planned, this would certainly be no contest between the 2 routes.  There are more people who use US 41/45 from the Hale to the I-43/US 41/141 jct in Green Bay than taking I-43 between those jcts. That is do in large part to Appleton (and the Fox Cities: Neenah, Menasha, Kaukauna), Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac being major commercial cities with larger populations than Manitowoc, Sheboygan, and Port Washington. 

Major industries/companies in Appleton (78,000 pop) include Appleton Paper and Miller Electric.  Neenah (25,000) has Kimberly-Clark, one of the largest paper products companies and Neenah Foundry which makes manhole covers. It is very likely that the manhole covers in your town come from them. Menasha has 16,000 people.  Kaukauna (13,000) has International Paper (Thilmany Paper) and Kaukauna Cheese (now Bel/Kaukauna in Little Chute which is a neighboring town).  Oshkosh (66,000) has OshKosh B'Gosh, Oshkosh Corp (makes vehicles for Dept of Defense, fire engines/ambulances, and commercial construction), Bemis (plastics), Hughes (chocalates) and Oaks (chocolates).  It has UW-Oshkosh with 14,000 students. Oshkosh also hosts the AirAdventure Show which is the largest air show in the world and one of the largest country music festivals so tourism is a big deal in Oshkosh as well. Fond du Lac (42,000) has Mercury Marine (boat engines), ACNeilsen (of the Neilsen ratings fame), and Charter Communications call center for NE Wisconsin.

Conversly, Manitowoc (34,000) has 2 ship/yacht building companies and Lakeside Foods. Sheboygan (49,000) has Johnsonville Brats, tourism, and Koch Industries.  Port Washington (10,500) has one of the largest charter fishing fleets on the Great Lakes.

So saying that US 41 should become I-243 or what ever 3di you like would be counterproductive. That's why 41 needs to be a 2di. I would prefer 57 or 65 to 55 since the freeflow connection if IDOT ever got their act together would be simple but i suppose i can be convinced otherwise.

[NE2]

There are more people who use US 41/45 from the Hale to the I-43/US 41/141 jct in Green Bay than taking I-43 between those jcts. That is do in large part to Appleton (and the Fox Cities: Neenah, Menasha, Kaukauna), Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac being major commercial cities with larger populations than Manitowoc, Sheboygan, and Port Washington. 

Existing traffic, especially that to intermediate destinations, is going to use it no matter what the number. The purpose of Interstate numbering is to help long-distance travelers pick the best route.

You seem to be arguing that it should be a two-digit number because it has more population than I-43. But why should a less-direct route with more population be presented as equal to a shorter route?

[mukade]

What was the original concept of a route number in the US? I think they came about in the 1920s or thereabouts to replace named routes. Was the idea that a single number would follow actual highest volume traffic patterns? In other words, was there some sort of objective criteria or logic when deciding how a route would be numbered, and shouldn't a route follow where people actually go instead of asking the majority of people to change routes unnecessarily?

The original US and Interstate highways were generally long routes. I suppose that is why I-94 takes the questionable route it does. The major highways (I-x0 and I-x5 -- US x0 and US x1) were meant to connect the largest cities as much as possible. The three digit Interstates were meant to be relatively short bypasses or spurs. Was that not the original idea? If it still is, the answer is pretty clear for this case - this should be part of a long distance major route. No doubt about it.

If none of this matters anymore, US 41 can be numbered as anything because it is all arbitrary anyway. I think roughly half the people here think there should be a system and half don't care at all. It also seems like many people in DOTs don't care either.

[DaBigE]

Major industries/companies in Appleton (78,000 pop) include Appleton Paper and Miller Electric.  Neenah (25,000) has Kimberly-Clark, one of the largest paper products companies and Neenah Foundry which makes manhole covers. It is very likely that the manhole covers in your town come from them. Menasha has 16,000 people.  Kaukauna (13,000) has International Paper (Thilmany Paper) and Kaukauna Cheese (now Bel/Kaukauna in Little Chute which is a neighboring town).  Oshkosh (66,000) has OshKosh B'Gosh, Oshkosh Corp (makes vehicles for Dept of Defense, fire engines/ambulances, and commercial construction), Bemis (plastics), Hughes (chocalates) and Oaks (chocolates).  It has UW-Oshkosh with 14,000 students. Oshkosh also hosts the AirAdventure Show which is the largest air show in the world and one of the largest country music festivals so tourism is a big deal in Oshkosh as well. Fond du Lac (42,000) has Mercury Marine (boat engines), ACNeilsen (of the Neilsen ratings fame), and Charter Communications call center for NE Wisconsin.

Conversly, Manitowoc (34,000) has 2 ship/yacht building companies and Lakeside Foods. Sheboygan (49,000) has Johnsonville Brats, tourism, and Koch Industries.  Port Washington (10,500) has one of the largest charter fishing fleets on the Great Lakes.

Can't forget Pierce Manufacturing (yes, technically a subsidiary of Oshkosh Corp.), with all their fire trucks visible from US-41 just as you're entering Appleton from the south.  Technically, Oshkosh builds very few, if any ambulances in Wisconsin (they are built by the MedTec subsidiary in Bradenton, FL).  And while not an industry in the traditional sense, you cannot forget the Fox River Mall in Grand Chute, (just west of US-41, between College Ave & Wisconsin Ave), and its vast regional draw.

For I-43, I'm surprised you left out Kohler...both for plumbing fixtures and Whistling Straits.

Now, back to the number debate.