US-41 Interstate Conversion

[SEWIGuy]

Will Interstate 894 be decommissioned?

On another note, it seems like it would make much more sense grid wise that I-41 follow current I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay, while I-43 follow future I-41 from Milwaukee to Green Bay. In that case, I-894 definitely wouldn't be decommissioned.

WTF!?!  Grid-wise, I-41 should be west of I-43, and that is the plan as far as I have seen for Milwaukee to Green Bay.

As for decommissioning I-894, since the original reason for I-894 was a bypass of downtown Milwaukee (I-94), I suspect it will stay.

Sorry! I didn't know what I was thinking! I drank way too much coffee. Also, its finals week...

If it makes you feel better, they will actually be "violating" the grid south of Milwaukee.     

[FightingIrish]

Will Interstate 894 be decommissioned?

On another note, it seems like it would make much more sense grid wise that I-41 follow current I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay, while I-43 follow future I-41 from Milwaukee to Green Bay. In that case, I-894 definitely wouldn't be decommissioned.

WTF!?!  Grid-wise, I-41 should be west of I-43, and that is the plan as far as I have seen for Milwaukee to Green Bay.

As for decommissioning I-894, since the original reason for I-894 was a bypass of downtown Milwaukee (I-94), I suspect it will stay.

Sorry! I didn't know what I was thinking! I drank way too much coffee. Also, its finals week...

If it makes you feel better, they will actually be "violating" the grid south of Milwaukee.     

Fingernails on a chalkboard!

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[triplemultiplex]

894 is staying in all its glorious redundancy.  It will become BGS clutter in my opinion.  If avoiding confusion is the rationale for keeping it (which I believe is the case) then I would argue that keeping 894 around is going to lead to more confusion rather than less.  More stuff to read and decipher on the signs for out of town motorists.

All the commotion about US 41 and I-41 and the illogical southern terminus is thanks to an original sin of numbering the system in this region.  I've gone over this many times, but the Chicago to Milwaukee interstate should've been one of the north-south ones that ends in Chicago that could then have been extended later to Green Bay via the coast.  I-94 would exist in two chunks either side of Lake Michigan much like US 16 used to.  The Detroit to Chicagoland would have been I-92.  Then today we'd be talking about adding I-47 or I-43 to US 41 in Wisconsin.  (It also leaves 96 free for the fictional section )

[SEWIGuy]

Plus then you could have avoided the long I-39/90/94 triple multiplex by having the Milwaukee to Beloit interstate, and the IL portion of I-39, as one number.

[TheStranger]

894 is staying in all its glorious redundancy.  It will become BGS clutter in my opinion.  If avoiding confusion is the rationale for keeping it (which I believe is the case) then I would argue that keeping 894 around is going to lead to more confusion rather than less.  More stuff to read and decipher on the signs for out of town motor

But to some extent isn't there precedent for this with the 495/95 duplex that was restored on the Capital Beltway?

Though not the entire route, the 96/275 duplex in metro Detroit that represents the entire northern portion of 275 (due to the cancellation of the extension to Pontiac) is also pretty well-established.

[Brandon]

894 is staying in all its glorious redundancy.  It will become BGS clutter in my opinion.  If avoiding confusion is the rationale for keeping it (which I believe is the case) then I would argue that keeping 894 around is going to lead to more confusion rather than less.  More stuff to read and decipher on the signs for out of town motor

But to some extent isn't there precedent for this with the 495/95 duplex that was restored on the Capital Beltway?

Though not the entire route, the 96/275 duplex in metro Detroit that represents the entire northern portion of 275 (due to the cancellation of the extension to Pontiac) is also pretty well-established.

True, and no one calls it I-96 there.  The north-south part is always I-275. 

[triplemultiplex]

But to some extent isn't there precedent for this with the 495/95 duplex that was restored on the Capital Beltway?

Though not the entire route, the 96/275 duplex in metro Detroit that represents the entire northern portion of 275 (due to the cancellation of the extension to Pontiac) is also pretty well-established.

Or 94/694 in the Twin Cities.
But none of those examples encompass the entire 3di. That's what makes keeping 894 foolish in my mind.  I'm hoping we will end up having a transition period where in a few years, it will be decided to "phase out" 894.
Another thing to keep in mind is 894 is signed east-west, so along the "Airport Freeway" (that's the existing 43/894 concurrency*) you will soon be traveling Northbound, Southbound and Westbound all at the same time while bypassing MKE toward Madison, for example.  The wrong way concurrency is potentially confusing enough without throwing another cardinal direction into the mix.
The sensible action is to remove 894 from the picture and hand as many of the signs over to me as will fit in my available storage.


*(I've never liked the name "Airport" for that freeway.  Yeah, you can go towards the airport on it, but no more so than any other freeway in Milwaukee.  It doesn't go right past the airport.  Then there's also the "Airport Spur" which is the actual freeway into the actual airport, further confusing matters.  A more appropriate name would be the "Greenfield Freeway" since it spends most of its existence in that particular suburb.)

Plus then you could have avoided the long I-39/90/94 triple multiplex by having the Milwaukee to Beloit interstate, and the IL portion of I-39, as one number.

Indeed.  First, I like to start with I-39 numbered something higher like 47 or 53.  Then it is first extended from Rockford to MKE via Beloit in the 80's.  In the 90's the same forces that got I-39 extended to Wausau instead bring in a new number; either 39 or 43. (Recall that I-50-something runs north from Chicago to Milwaukee to Green Bay already.) As US 41's freeway conversion wraps up in the early 00's, it makes for a natural extension of 47 or 53.  So 894 stays put, there is no wrong-way concurrency and no triplemultiplex(es) (and my username is something else.)

[vtk]

Another thing to keep in mind is 894 is signed east-west, so along the "Airport Freeway" (that's the existing 43/894 concurrency*) you will soon be traveling Northbound, Southbound and Westbound all at the same time while bypassing MKE toward Madison, for example.  The wrong way concurrency is potentially confusing enough without throwing another cardinal direction into the mix.

I've actually heard that as an argument to keep 894. Without it, you have an east-west freeway that's signed north/south-south/north. That's not useful at all.  With 894's east-west, a disoriented driver has a better clue which way he's going.  When confronted with three distinct cardinal directions, the logical best guess is to let the opposites cancel each other out, and take the remaining direction at face value.

[FightingIrish]

I get the feeling that I-894 will be removed once motorists warm up to the idea of I-41. I realized just last week how confusing 894/43 is with just two cardinal directions when I took the wrong exit from EB Forest Home Av. Perhaps signs saying either "to Airport/Chicago" and "to Beloit/Madison" would help.

I-894's removal was proposed a few years back by Milwaukee's then-mayor (and avid freeway hater) John Norquist. In his scenario, I-94 would follow the bypass, I-43 would be signed alone to downtown and current I-94 west of downtown to the Zoo Interchange would be ea extension of I-794. The plan didn't fly though, and a reconstructed Marquette Interchange solved most of the traffic problems in downtown.

[triplemultiplex]

Caught a glimpse of the reconstruction of the last substandard interchange on future I-41 outside of Milwaukee on a recent plane ride.  This is the WI 144 exit in Slinger.  This should be the last of the original interchanges on US 41 from when it was built as a four lane expressway in the 50's.  All others have been rebuilt, replaced or upgraded.
The only segment I am unsure about is up near Mike around Kaukauna.  Anything left from when that part first opened in the 60's?

[skluth]

The only segment I am unsure about is up near Mike around Kaukauna.  Anything left from when that part first opened in the 60's?

I grew up in Green Bay and still go up there occasionally. US 41 has been upgraded to freeway between WI 26 and Abrams. I go up via Madison/Rosendale so I have no idea what 41 is like south of Oshkosh. There are still some substandard and incomplete interchanges, notably US 10/WI 441. I'll be happy when all the construction is done.

[mgk920]

The only segment I am unsure about is up near Mike around Kaukauna.  Anything left from when that part first opened in the 60's?

I grew up in Green Bay and still go up there occasionally. US 41 has been upgraded to freeway between WI 26 and Abrams. I go up via Madison/Rosendale so I have no idea what 41 is like south of Oshkosh. There are still some substandard and incomplete interchanges, notably US 10/WI 441. I'll be happy when all the construction is done.

That east-west part between what is now WI 15 (Northland Ave in the northwest Appleton area) to a bit northeast of County 'J' in Kaukauna was close to I-standards when it was first built and opened in 1960.  It was one of the first parts of US 41 north of Milwaukee to become a true freeway.  All it needed was shoulder paving and its crossroad bridge clearances raised to bring it up to full modern interstate standards.  WisDOT also recently installed a series of 'guidewire' cables in its median.  Aside from that work, a few crossroad bridge replacements in the Appleton area to handle modern levels of street traffic due to urban growth, the addition of WI 441 and mainline resurfacings over the years, it is still essentially in its original form.  All of the bridges on that section where US(I)-41 crosses over something else are still the original 1960 structures.

Interestingly, within a couple of months of the bridge at the County 'J' interchange being jacked up to modern interstate clearance over US(I)-41 a few years ago - it was hit and seriously damaged by an overheight truck.





BTW, all of US 41 between Milwaukee and the US 141 split at Abrams is freeway.  The last crossroad intersections (they were between Kaukauna and De Pere) were cut off in about 2000.  The last one south of Appleton (it was just northwest of Fond du Lac) was cut off in the mid-late 1990s.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

About 15 years ago, they still had some driveways w/mailboxes on US-41 just south of Green Bay.

[Fox 11 News]

release from Petri's office:

For Immediate Release: June 10, 2014
Contact: Lee Brooks, (202) 225-2476, lee.brooks@mail.house.gov

Provision to Move Highway 41 Interstate Forward Passes House
Petri Says Allowing Currently-Operating Trucks to Continue Using Road Once It Becomes an Interstate is Final Step in Process

Washington, D.C.–Today, the U.S. House of Representatives passed legislation that included a provision to ensure that trucks currently using Highway 41 in Wisconsin will continue to be able to operate on it once the road becomes an Interstate.  A similar bill was first introduced by Reps. Tom Petri (R-WI) and Reid Ribble (R-WI), both members of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and passed by the House on July 22, 2013.

"This is the last step in the process that's needed for Highway 41 between Milwaukee and Green Bay to finally become an Interstate,"  said Petri, who is the chairman of the House Highways and Transit Subcommittee.

"Highway 41 is the major artery through the Fox Valley, and the highway has been on track to become an Interstate for almost a decade.  Highway 41 is a huge part of our regional economy and millions of dollars in economic activity depend on a fully-functioning road, so it's important that commerce and transportation not be adversely impacted during this transition."

The provision was included as part of H.R. 4745, the Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, for Fiscal Year 2015.  The Senate is still considering its version of the appropriations bill.

The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has stated that all other requirements have been met and it is prepared to formally seek the Interstate designation from the U.S. Department of Transportation once this provision becomes law.

Under federal law, trucks over 80,000 lbs. in gross vehicle weight cannot operate on Interstate highways.  Many have raised concerns that this federal weight limit would harm the local economy in Wisconsin and pose safety risks for communities because oversized trucks would be forced to use local roadways.

The provision in the Transportation Appropriations bill would grandfather in currently-operating trucks when Highway 41 is designated as part of the Interstate Highway System.  Similar provisions have been enacted for Interstate highway designations, such as I-39 in Wisconsin and I-99 in Pennsylvania.  Governor Scott Walker, state legislators, local communities, and business groups have expressed support for Petri and Ribble's bill.  U.S. Senators Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) and Ron Johnson (R-WI) have introduced identical legislation in the Senate.

"What we're saying is simply that if you can operate now, you can operate in the future,"  said Petri.

Highway 41 is the main thorough way through central Wisconsin from Milwaukee to Green Bay.  Twenty-three percent of the state's manufacturing, retail, and wholesale businesses are located along Highway 41, and the highway is responsible for generating 29% of Wisconsin's tourism dollars.

[FightingIrish]

Since it's part of the FY2015 budget, does that mean it won't become law until October and signing can't start until then?

[vtk]

How does future motor carrier enforcement determine if a specific truck was operating on highway 41 before it became an Interstate?

[mgk920]

IIRC, it 'grandfathers' the current weight limits.

Mike

[Big John]

US 41/WI 29 flyover ramps to be open to traffic on Thursday: http://fox11online.com/2014/06/23/new-hwy-4129-ramps-to-open-thursday/

[davenh]

I saw some interesting signs on my morning commute. On I-43 North coming out of downtown Milwaukee, I saw them posting route signs for Alternate I-41/US-41/US-45 (presumably to bypass the Zoo Interchange construction). I'll try to get a picture of this in the next couple of days (and hope that they don't quickly cover the I-41 parts in the meantime).

[FightingIrish]

I saw some interesting signs on my morning commute. On I-43 North coming out of downtown Milwaukee, I saw them posting route signs for Alternate I-41/US-41/US-45 (presumably to bypass the Zoo Interchange construction). I'll try to get a picture of this in the next couple of days (and hope that they don't quickly cover the I-41 parts in the meantime).

Wisconsin likes to designate alternate routes for all their interstates. That's why there are  "alternate I-94" signs on US 45 to Capitol Drive westbound.

[merrycilantro]

Why is that, i wonder? I never understood the reasoning behind having an Alternate route...i can see in the Milwaukee area where traffic is generally backed up quite a bit but say in Sheboygan, Fond du Lac, Oshkosh--well ok i can see Oshkosh during EAA but still...

[DaBigE]

Why is that, i wonder? I never understood the reasoning behind having an Alternate route...i can see in the Milwaukee area where traffic is generally backed up quite a bit but say in Sheboygan, Fond du Lac, Oshkosh--well ok i can see Oshkosh during EAA but still...

It's all part of their overall incident management planning (WisDOT Time Program). Like the ramp gates that are being installed in many areas across the state, it's all about reducing the man-power needed during an incident. Gates and permanent signs are cheaper than posting a squad at each location.

[merrycilantro]

That makes sense as to why they recently put those gates up at the Freeway entrances in Fond du Lac. US 151 got them as well as Johnson St (Wis 23)...I can't recall offhand if the other 2 exits in town got them or not but i know the first 2 did. Never understood why, but that makes sense.

[davenh]

As promised, here's the (Alternate) I-41 signage. This was clicked on I-43 N at Capitol Dr. in Milwaukee.

I imagine they're adding these to help and bypass the Zoo Interchange construction. There are also similar Alternate I-94 signs that start at the Mitchell Interchange, go west on I-894 onto I-43 S, then exit at Moorland Rd. and continue north to rejoin I-94 in Brookfield.

[agentsteel53]

any state-named shields pop up by accident?