The Eastern Oklahoma County Turnpike is officially starting construction next week. The first phase will be an interchange at I-44.
More information can be found here: http://www.drivingforwardok.com/northeast-ok-county-loop
http://kfor.com/2018/01/08/construction-set-to-begin-on-eastern-oklahoma-county-turnpike/
I am really looking forward to these projects getting done. I will start a thread on the Kilpatrick Extension once it gets underway which should be soon.
[Edited to rename the thread to the turnpike's final name. -S.]
PS, I am still wondering what they will call this turnpike. An x35 designation would be nice.
As an aside, I would like to see I-44 follow Kilpatrick Turnpike to SH-74 and then go south from there. Seems like it would be easier to do it that way. With the way OKC is growing, it is only a matter of time before the sprawl surrounds a good portion of the Turner Turnpike.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 09, 2018, 12:17:21 AM
PS, I am still wondering what they will call this turnpike. An x35 designation would be nice.
That would require a direct connection to I-35 at some point... ;)
Certainly a deserving 3di corridor in my book, though.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 09, 2018, 09:25:14 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 09, 2018, 12:17:21 AM
PS, I am still wondering what they will call this turnpike. An x35 designation would be nice.
That would require a direct connection to I-35 at some point... ;)
Certainly a deserving 3di corridor in my book, though.
The preliminary alignment(which is still available online to view) showed a stub extending northward over I-44. They have changed that with the final alignment and now show a stub extending southwards of I-40 about 1/4 mile past the interchange similar to the Kilpatrick stub in SW OKC.
That tells me the OTA intends to create a loop around Norman possibly connecting to I-35. In a perfect world, I'd like to see SH-9 realigned through the southern interchange on I-35 and a new stack interchange built along with a new bridge going over the river. It would eventually reconnect with SH-9 somewhere further east of OU.
Anyways, the OTA obviously some sort of intention with extending the EOC south and I'd like to know what it is. That's why I'm anxious for these projects to get done as I suspect it's rather a matter of time before the next round of projects are announced.
I just hope they are working with cities to prevent the clusterfuck that is the SW Kilpatrick ext.
I think chances are slim this rural turnpike will get an Interstate designation. Most likely it will get another OK-3XX designation, if it gets a highway number at all.
Converting OK-9 to a freeway through the South side of Norman is do-able even though it would be a tight squeeze. I don't know what kinds of political opposition could develop against such a thing. But a connection from OK-9 to directly to this new turnpike would make it more valuable and worth of a I-x35 or I-x44 number. Such a road could increase chances of buiding a freeway along or near OK-9 from Riverwind Casino over to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. That would create a complete southern half of an outer loop around OKC. It would leave the clusterf*** and resulting Breezewood in Mustang as the only gap in a complete OKC outer loop.
I don't like those tiny cloverleaf ramps at both the I-44 and I-40 interchanges. Cheap cheap cheap.
Couldn't agree more about the cloveleafs. It is obviously a budget issue. They even put the future flyover ramps at SH-74 and Kilpatrick on an indefinite hold.
Previous plans had at a coupe flyovers and two at the I-40/Kilpatrick interchange, but that was dropped as well.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 09, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
I think chances are slim this rural turnpike will get an Interstate designation. Most likely it will get another OK-3XX designation, if it gets a highway number at all.
I don't like those tiny cloverleaf ramps at both the I-44 and I-40 interchanges. Cheap cheap cheap.
Not only cheap -- but it's obvious that at the present they don't figure to get much traffic from WB I-40 to WB I-44 or the reverse. Looks like the primary consideration is simply a bypass rather than a stand-alone connector between two Interstates. And I agree with the opinion that OK will select a 3xx state number rather than try for an Interstate -- from their past record with the pre-existing designation of US 69, they could care less.
Oklahoma's budget issues for highways and everything else will remain a big problem as long as lawmakers and most of Oklahoma's citizens remain detached from reality with regard to funding infrastructure. The philosophy is doling out tax cuts above all other priorities, even if it breaks the budget. Voters scapegoat the usual boogeymen (poor people, minorities, etc) for why the state can't afford to build some of the big highway projects going up in neighboring states. Our state's voters believe the fantasy that we can somehow get rid of all the tollgates, not raise the fuel tax at all but still be able to fix and improve our highways. Never mind considering all the factors which have greatly increased the price of highway projects.
I expect any big new highways in Oklahoma to feature toll gates in the foreseeable future.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 09, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
I don't know what kinds of political opposition could develop against such a thing.
Any political opposition that developed would be shouted down by the rest of Norman going "GOD, SHUT THE HELL UP." SH-9 is fantastically unpopular in its current state. Improving SH-9 would make access to East Norman tremendously easier, and maybe more importantly, make getting into and out of the OU stadium much, much easier. And we all know that Owen Field is a religious site for most Oklahomans, so all that needs to be done is putting that trump card out there.
The main lanes of existing OK-9 between I-35 and the Classen Blvd exit are pretty much freeway grade. The question is what to do with the 8 at-grade intersections (7 with traffic lights) between I-35 and Classen. Exits can't be built for each intersection, which might necessitate flanking the main lanes with frontage roads at least in a couple places. That could be a really tight squeeze between SW 24th Ave and Chautauqua Ave.
Nevertheless I think upgrading OK-9 through there, as well as the stretch by Riverwind Casino, is a pretty necessary, justifiable thing.
East of Classen Blvd I think it would be a little easier upgrading OK-9 into a freeway or toll road. But it looks like a few residential properties would have to be bought and cleared along the way.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 10, 2018, 04:22:10 PM
The main lanes of existing OK-9 between I-35 and the Classen Blvd exit are pretty much freeway grade. The question is what to do with the 8 at-grade intersections (7 with traffic lights) between I-35 and Classen. Exits can't be built for each intersection, which might necessitate flanking the main lanes with frontage roads at least in a couple places. That could be a really tight squeeze between SW 24th Ave and Chautauqua Ave.
Nevertheless I think upgrading OK-9 through there, as well as the stretch by Riverwind Casino, is a pretty necessary, justifiable thing.
East of Classen Blvd I think it would be a little easier upgrading OK-9 into a freeway or toll road. But it looks like a few residential properties would have to be bought and cleared along the way.
You could get away with closing off a few intersections without providing direct access to cut down on the number of interchanges. Berry, Imhoff, and McGee all tie into each other south of SH-9, so they could share a single interchange at Imhoff, and Chatauqua and Jenkins could probably get away with sharing as well.
I think the most difficult part would be squeezing the ramps in without taking too much property, as well as addressing the mess at 24th Avenue SW.
From the first link:
QuoteThis project will allow for a connection from Eastern Oklahoma County to vital intersections for travel. This will produce a drive-time reduction to access Tulsa from the OKC Metro and a needed new loop to alleviate current congested traffic in the Oklahoma City area. Construction will link I-40 and I-44 (Turner Turnpike) in Eastern Oklahoma County.
I don't see how it will make it faster from Tulsa to most parts of OKC other than the eastern parts of the metro. It will still be quicker to stay on I-44 to get from downtown OKC and from most parts of the metro to Tulsa and points east. When (if) this loop is completed it will be useful but the first part of the turnpike won't be very useful until more of it is finished.
That's why I think it's necessary to do freeway upgrades on OK-9 in South Norman and the non-freeway stretch of OK-9 West of I-35 passing by Riverwind Casino to the H E Bailey Turnpike extension. If OTA and ODOT efforts can connect this new EOC turnpike with OK-9 and the existing H E Bailey Turnpike extension South of OKC then that would provide an effective Southern bypass for long distance traffic around the OKC metro. It would certainly help long distance traffic on I-44. A northern extension of the EOC up and over to I-35 would create another logical bypass.
Here's an update of a month or so old aerial imagery from OKCTalk(development forum for Oklahoma City area):
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=41358&p=1063008#post1063008
Does anyone think the EOC Turnpike is a waste of transportation dollars? Or is it a useful addition to Oklahoma's Turnpike system? I don't have an opinion either way, but given the previous opposition, and the lawsuit against it, I wonder if there were better options to addressing transportation needs without building this new toll road.
I believe it is a good use of money though it is a bit worthless without an extension to I-35. They should have went for a bigger project and included a Norman loop. They also need to eventually connect it to I-35 north near Edmond.
At least this road would be one leg of what would hopefully be future extensions down to Norman as well as up and over the top of Edmond.
I'd suggest tying the EOC Turnpike directly into SH 9 southeast of Thunderbird Lake, and upgrading SH 9 between I-35 and there, as other have mentioned. That way SH 9 itself can function as part of the southeast beltway.
Although I'll agree it looks tight for SH 9 west of Chautauqua Avenue, it looks doable, although it'll likely take at least a little eminent domain, and it looks to me like any interchange at 24th Avenue would probably take some reconstruction of the I-35 interchange as well. Otherwise, perhaps some tight diamonds or SPUIs could work, like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6094721,-111.9780798,653m/data=!3m1!1e3). (Either way, SH 9 should be easier to upgrade than the highway in that link, where no ROW was originally preserved!)
May I ask: Where is it? It isn't showing up on Google Maps, it isn't on DigitalGlobe or EsriWorld (or any other OSM edit background), and there aren't even proposed lines for it on OSM. Was it cancelled or something?
No, it's well under construction. Those sources just don't bother with keeping up to date on Oklahoma, cause fuck us, right?
It appears on Google imagery starting here (and scroll south): https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6416318,-97.1931014,1524m/data=!3m1!1e3
It's visible on the latest Google Earth imagery, but not in Google Maps for some reason (click to enlarge):
(https://i.imgur.com/UPDIHY7.jpg)
In Google Earth the imagery surrounding Oklahoma City is dated 11/18/2018 while the imagery within OKC itself is dated 12/12/2017. The construction on the EOC is clearly visible. I-40 had a widening project in progress from near where the EOC connects to I-40 and back West to the I-240 split. Street View imagery on I-44 at the EOC junction is date July 2018. It shows early progress on the project. Street View imagery on I-40 at the EOC junction is dated May of 2018. Nothing had started there yet at that time.
The Southern, short extension of the Kilpatrick Turnpike to Airport Road in OKC is well underway and also visible in Google Earth.
It shows up on yahoo maps as under construction and in yahoo satellite view at close zoom.
I'll try to add it to OSM but I dont know if I can line it up right.
Google Earth imagery always gets updated first for whatever reason and then usually maps is updated a few weeks later.
Why would any online map service add a road before it is finished and open?
I think Plutonic Panda was only talking about the satellite imagery that can be displayed in Google Maps. The satellite imagery often seems to be updated in Google Earth first and then the imagery winds up in Google Maps later. The mapping service isn't going to add in the actual road listing until some time after it is finished.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2019, 08:15:20 PM
I think Plutonic Panda was only talking about the satellite imagery that can be displayed in Google Maps. The satellite imagery often seems to be updated in Google Earth first and then the imagery winds up in Google Maps later. The mapping service isn't going to add in the actual road listing until some time after it is finished.
Ah, that makes more sense.
I've often wondered why it is that Earth gets new imagery first, or why it is there's any discrepancy at all. Then again, I've also wondered why it is Google has two services that are getting ever closer in providing the same service. But I digress.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2019, 08:15:20 PM
I think Plutonic Panda was only talking about the satellite imagery that can be displayed in Google Maps. The satellite imagery often seems to be updated in Google Earth first and then the imagery winds up in Google Maps later. The mapping service isn't going to add in the actual road listing until some time after it is finished.
Correct.
I find it weird Google only updated the peripheral of the city. I'm not aware of them ever doing this before.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 29, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2019, 08:15:20 PM
I think Plutonic Panda was only talking about the satellite imagery that can be displayed in Google Maps. The satellite imagery often seems to be updated in Google Earth first and then the imagery winds up in Google Maps later. The mapping service isn't going to add in the actual road listing until some time after it is finished.
Ah, that makes more sense.
I've often wondered why it is that Earth gets new imagery first, or why it is there's any discrepancy at all. Then again, I've also wondered why it is Google has two services that are getting ever closer in providing the same service. But I digress.
Three. Google owns Waze.
Quote from: MNHighwayManI've often wondered why it is that Earth gets new imagery first, or why it is there's any discrepancy at all. Then again, I've also wondered why it is Google has two services that are getting ever closer in providing the same service. But I digress.
Quote from: 1Three. Google owns Waze.
Technically it might be four. Google maintains two different versions of Google Earth. There's the desktop app (which I think for most people was converted over to the "pro" version). And then there's the web browser based version of Google Earth. Add Google Maps and Waze to that.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI find it weird Google only updated the peripheral of the city. I'm not aware of them ever doing this before.
I've seen other oddities overlaid on other big metros. The "pretty earth" algorithm can do only so much when there's literally a patch work of different imagery updates just within the same zip code. One nice thing is that the satellite imagery updates seems to be ever more frequent -at least for the big cities. That even goes for Street View imagery. Smaller cities and towns are updated less often. A lot of desolate areas may have satellite or Street View imagery dating back to last decade when the imagery was of far lower quality.
Google Earth and Google Maps often use the best quality imagery as the default imagery, especially in urban centers. There is often newer imagery in the 'historic imagery' layer in Google Earth.
Activating the historical imagery layer forces the most recent imagery to show, but with one exception: new imagery doesn't always show up in the historical imagery layer immediately.
For example the current default imagery in Oklahoma City is dated 12/13/2017, but if you activate the historical imagery layer, there is a newer image from January 2018. However if you go to eastern Oklahoma County, the default imagery is dated 11/19/2018, but if you activate the historical imagery layer, the newest is from January 2018, because that new image has not been transferred to the historical imagery layer yet.
There are many quirks with Google Earth.
By the way the November 2018 imagery also shows a major I-40 project between the EOC Turnpike and I-240. I assume it is tied to the construction of the turnpike?
Quote from: Chris on March 30, 2019, 07:36:03 AM
By the way the November 2018 imagery also shows a major I-40 project between the EOC Turnpike and I-240. I assume it is tied to the construction of the turnpike?
It is part of an overall widening of I-40 from OKC to Shawnee. The turnpike authority is doing the 2 miles or so around the turnpike, ODOT the rest.
Quote from: okc1 on March 30, 2019, 08:53:26 AM
Quote from: Chris on March 30, 2019, 07:36:03 AM
By the way the November 2018 imagery also shows a major I-40 project between the EOC Turnpike and I-240. I assume it is tied to the construction of the turnpike?
It is part of an overall widening of I-40 from OKC to Shawnee. The turnpike authority is doing the 2 miles or so around the turnpike, ODOT the rest.
Not exactly. ODOT is completely rebuilding I40 east from the I240 junction to Harrah-Newalla Road. Taking out the original 1960's concrete, replacing it with 6 lanes instead of 4, completely redesigning and rebuilding the very busy Choctaw Road interchange, and replacing the section line bridges over I40. OTA is only responsible for the I40/EOC interchange near Luther Road.
Once this section is completed, they will continue east with the rebuilding and widening. It will likely be decades before it get to Shawnee but that is their intent.
Quote from: rte66man on March 30, 2019, 09:17:02 PM
Quote from: okc1 on March 30, 2019, 08:53:26 AM
Quote from: Chris on March 30, 2019, 07:36:03 AM
By the way the November 2018 imagery also shows a major I-40 project between the EOC Turnpike and I-240. I assume it is tied to the construction of the turnpike?
It is part of an overall widening of I-40 from OKC to Shawnee. The turnpike authority is doing the 2 miles or so around the turnpike, ODOT the rest.
Not exactly. ODOT is completely rebuilding I40 east from the I240 junction to Harrah-Newalla Road. Taking out the original 1960's concrete, replacing it with 6 lanes instead of 4, completely redesigning and rebuilding the very busy Choctaw Road interchange, and replacing the section line bridges over I40. OTA is only responsible for the I40/EOC interchange near Luther Road.
Once this section is completed, they will continue east with the rebuilding and widening. It will likely be decades before it get to Shawnee but that is their intent.
I bet it gets to Shawnee in 5-7 years. Isn't there a big project here coming up 2021? What is the deal with the section between Tinker AFB and I-240?
The old cloverleaf intersection with I-40 and Douglas Boulevard by Tinker AFB is going to be converted into a SPUI. And I-40 is supposed to be widened to either 3 or 4 lanes in each direction through that intersection. Construction on that project wasn't scheduled to start until late 2019 or early 2020.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 31, 2019, 01:23:08 AM
The old cloverleaf intersection with I-40 and Douglas Boulevard by Tinker AFB is going to be converted into a SPUI. And I-40 is supposed to be widened to either 3 or 4 lanes in each direction through that intersection. Construction on that project wasn't scheduled to start until late 2019 or early 2020.
It was scheduled to go out for bid earlier this year but was pulled during the government shutdown. I do not believe it's been rescheduled yet.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 31, 2019, 12:52:08 AM
What is the deal with the section between Tinker AFB and I-240?
As you can tell from the maps, they have a real problem squeezing a lane expansion between SE29th on the north and Tinker on the south. The obvious candidate is Tinker but I do not believe they can just get the land via eminent domain.
What they SHOULD do is completely rebuild it from Hudiburg Drive east to the Douglas Blvd exit. They can address the curve over SE29th, rationalize the Air Depot and Town Center exits, and make it six lanes throughout. That would be quite expensive though.
Google Maps has updated to show the northern section of the turnpike under construction south of Luther.
^^^ it's been updated for several months now maybe even close to a year. Google has been really slow to update imagery lately.
What will they do with the "old" turnpike/street stub extension that ends at SW 15th Street? It looks like it could be retained as a northbound onramp to I-40 east. It doesn't really go anywhere else.
Quote from: sparker on January 09, 2018, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 09, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
I think chances are slim this rural turnpike will get an Interstate designation. Most likely it will get another OK-3XX designation, if it gets a highway number at all.
I don't like those tiny cloverleaf ramps at both the I-44 and I-40 interchanges. Cheap cheap cheap.
...from their past record with the pre-existing designation of US 69, they could care less.
What do you mean?
I don't expect this road to carry much traffic at all until it is extended to I-35 to the south. If/when it is completed, I-35 should be routed onto it.
The I-35 designation thru Oklahoma City needs to stay put. If the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever extended North to I-35 between Guthrie and Edmond as well as South to the Norman area the route would only be worthy of a 3-digit I-x35 designation, if it warranted one at all.
If the project is mostly or entirely funded via the OTA and turnpike bonds then the feds really have no businesses sticking one of their route markers on it. It would end up being a state-named highway, like what happened to the Creek Turnpike (OK-364) and Muskogee Turnpike (OK-351). A whole bunch of this type of thing is happening in Texas and other states too.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 09, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
If the project is mostly or entirely funded via the OTA and turnpike bonds then the feds really have no businesses sticking one of their route markers on it. It would end up being a state-named highway, like what happened to the Creek Turnpike (OK-364) and Muskogee Turnpike (OK-351). A whole bunch of this type of thing is happening in Texas and other states too.
The "feds" have no say in this–the state would have to request an Interstate designation and be approved for it. Such a designation has nothing to do with who funded the route, in any event.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 09, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
The I-35 designation thru Oklahoma City needs to stay put. If the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever extended North to I-35 between Guthrie and Edmond as well as South to the Norman area the route would only be worthy of a 3-digit I-x35 designation, if it warranted one at all.
If the project is mostly or entirely funded via the OTA and turnpike bonds then the feds really have no businesses sticking one of their route markers on it. It would end up being a state-named highway, like what happened to the Creek Turnpike (OK-364) and Muskogee Turnpike (OK-351). A whole bunch of this type of thing is happening in Texas and other states too.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 09, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 09, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
If the project is mostly or entirely funded via the OTA and turnpike bonds then the feds really have no businesses sticking one of their route markers on it. It would end up being a state-named highway, like what happened to the Creek Turnpike (OK-364) and Muskogee Turnpike (OK-351). A whole bunch of this type of thing is happening in Texas and other states too.
The "feds" have no say in this–the state would have to request an Interstate designation and be approved for it. Such a designation has nothing to do with who funded the route, in any event.
Given recent ODOT history, particularly in the Tulsa/Muskogee area, the thing will likely be designated as a 3xx state auxiliary of a major intersecting route -- I'd venture to guess OK 340, 344, or even 362 -- and if it curves over to I-35, perhaps 335.
Quote from: Scott5114The "feds" have no say in this–the state would have to request an Interstate designation and be approved for it. Such a designation has nothing to do with who funded the route, in any event.
In the unlikely scenario of a rep from the FHWA or whatever visiting the finished product and telling people at the OTA, "shouldn't this fine route be carrying an Interstate number like 'I-435'?" The OTA folks should answer, "#$%! off, you didn't pay for it, so you don't get to stick your federal brand on it! State's rights, biattcchh!"
:D
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 10, 2019, 01:25:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114The "feds" have no say in this–the state would have to request an Interstate designation and be approved for it. Such a designation has nothing to do with who funded the route, in any event.
In the unlikely scenario of a rep from the FHWA or whatever visiting the finished product and telling people at the OTA, "shouldn't this fine route be carrying an Interstate number like 'I-435'?" The OTA folks should answer, "#$%! off, you didn't pay for it, so you don't get to stick your federal brand on it! State's rights, biattcchh!"
:D
Very unlikely someone from FHWA would even get off their duff to promote an Interstate designation on anything these days. They certainly haven't pressed the issue in the Phoenix area despite the multitude of Interstate-grade bypasses and connectors. And the lack of "I-844" or the like on the Fitzpatrick, although it is a nice little functional OKC bypass, doesn't portend the deployment of red, white, and blue shields on any additional or upcoming toll facilities.
Quote from: sparker on October 10, 2019, 05:39:40 PM
And the lack of "I-844" or the like on the Fitzpatrick
do what
I am a little surprised the Kilpatrick didn’t get an Oklahoma state highway number when the Creek and Muskogee did, especially given the similarity between it and the Creek. I’d be curious if that’s going to happen in the future...SH-344, perhaps?
Jeez -- I got the turnpike name wrong (and I'm 1/4 Irish; clan Downs -- should know the difference between Fitzpatrick and Kilpatrick!); definitely my bad -- need to stop posting on short work breaks when my brain's elsewhere! That being said, I concur with the number 344 for the Kilpatrick pike; wonder if ODOT will ever get around to it. The upcoming Kickapoo pike might be most appropriately served by the number 340; ironically, my "fantasy" number for the Muskogee Turnpike/OK 351 has long been I-340!
Given the numbers given to the Tulsa-area turnpikes, I'd imagine that the Kilpatrick would get either 303 or 374 (or 377, because why not make things worse), and the Kickapoo would get 362. If they had been wanting to follow Interstate rules, we'd have a 344 and a 340 already.
Edit: We, in fact, have a 344 already. I just found that the Transportation Commission commissioned SH-344 for the Gilcrease Expressway in June 2018. (This was previously shown as a possible future SH-12 on ODOT planning documents, I believe.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2019, 02:55:09 AM
Given the numbers given to the Tulsa-area turnpikes, I'd imagine that the Kilpatrick would get either 303 or 374 (or 377, because why not make things worse), and the Kickapoo would get 362. If they had been wanting to follow Interstate rules, we'd have a 344 and a 340 already.
Edit: We, in fact, have a 344 already. I just found that the Transportation Commission commissioned SH-344 for the Gilcrease Expressway in June 2018. (This was previously shown as a possible future SH-12 on ODOT planning documents, I believe.)
On the surface it appears ODOT simply looks for a relatively prominent 2dus or 2dOK that is either intersecting or adjacent and adds 300 to it. In Tulsa they've used 364 as an adjunct to US 64 and 351 related to OK 51. But with the information here, they've added Interstate propinquity to the mix; perhaps they're simply "filling out" the Tulsa 3di roster with "344", which satisfies their 300-series standard as well as being a tip of the hat to I-244 and unsigned I-444. That would leave any future consideration for the Kilpatrick up in the air; it could receive one of the designations cited above, or even 335 (or, if one is stretching things, 366!). Same rationale for the Kickapoo -- although 362 would seem a rational number in keeping with current practice, it still could be 340 -- or, fancifully, 309! Someone should get a pool going!
My guess is that 344 was chosen due to lack of other options–the only highways it intersects other than I-44 and I-244 are US-64 and SH-51! (And US-412, but what would the number derived from that be? 312, when the "parent" US route doesn't even touch US-12 to begin with? 712?)
The almost-rational-but-not-quite nature of the 3xx series routes make coming up with additions to the family a very satisfying endeavor. Hey, let's make the Bailey Spur SH-376 (why not an extension of 4? Because that would make sense)!
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2019, 02:55:09 AM
Edit: We, in fact, have a 344 already. I just found that the Transportation Commission commissioned SH-344 for the Gilcrease Expressway in June 2018. (This was previously shown as a possible future SH-12 on ODOT planning documents, I believe.)
Is that just for the tolled portion currently under construction, or does the designation extend all the way to 75? If that's the case, may as well truncate SH-11 and extend SH-344 out to 244.
Quote from: US 89 on October 11, 2019, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2019, 02:55:09 AM
Edit: We, in fact, have a 344 already. I just found that the Transportation Commission commissioned SH-344 for the Gilcrease Expressway in June 2018. (This was previously shown as a possible future SH-12 on ODOT planning documents, I believe.)
Is that just for the tolled portion currently under construction, or does the designation extend all the way to 75? If that's the case, may as well truncate SH-11 and extend SH-344 out to 244.
QuoteAdd the State Highway 344 designation to the new portion of the Gilcrease Expressway that is being constructed West of Tulsa. The alignment of State Highway 344 will be between Interstate 244/State Highway 51, west of Tulsa, and extend approximately 5.25 miles to the existing interchange of Interstate 244 and Interstate 44 southeast of the City of Tulsa. The addition of State Highway 344 will become effective upon the completion of construction and approval by the State Transportation Commission.
Have any of you ever kicked a poo?
Quote from: Gnutella on October 15, 2019, 05:27:08 AM
Have any of you ever kicked a poo?
No, but have inadvertently stepped on numerous ones. Share a house with a husky and that's bound to happen!
Works a lot better with dried out cow pies and buffalo chips.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
Quote from: Brian556 on December 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
The new most stolen highway sign in Oklahoma!
Quote from: X99 on December 04, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on December 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
The new most stolen highway sign in Oklahoma!
As well as the one most spouses would banish to the garage or an outbuilding!
Quote from: sparker on December 09, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
Quote from: X99 on December 04, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on December 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
The new most stolen highway sign in Oklahoma!
As well as the one most spouses would banish to the garage or an outbuilding!
Most women are selfish and wont let their guys hang any signs in the house, regardless of what they say. One on the many reasons that I choose to stay single
Quote from: Brian556 on December 09, 2019, 08:26:10 PM
Quote from: sparker on December 09, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
Quote from: X99 on December 04, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on December 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
The new most stolen highway sign in Oklahoma!
As well as the one most spouses would banish to the garage or an outbuilding!
Most women are selfish and wont let their guys hang any signs in the house, regardless of what they say. One on the many reasons that I choose to stay single
That statement is more full of shit than the sign in the post you quoted.
Yeah... "I'm single because I like to hang signs on the wall" isn't often heard. Besides which, I'm pretty sure most women would agree to making that concession if considering marriage.
She: I expect you to help with household chores, and I expect you to throw away your porn.
He: I expect you to let me hang signs on the wall.
Quote from: kphoger on December 10, 2019, 10:48:58 AM
Yeah... "I'm single because I like to hang signs on the wall" isn't often heard. Besides which, I'm pretty sure most women would agree to making that concession if considering marriage.
She: I expect you to help with household chores, and I expect you to throw away your porn.
He: I expect you to let me hang signs on the wall.
Great stuff. My wife told me years ago, that I could use like 1 wall in the garage for my signs, so I started out with multiple license plates, and my Kansas I-135 sign. Since then I have added my Oklahoma I-40, 35 and 44, Arizona I-19, California I-5, and Texas I-635 and I-45. Every wall in the garage has something :bigass:
My wife lets me hang up signs wherever I want, so long as she can hang up her movie and TV show posters wherever she wants, because we're both adults about it.
Hell, my wife has been known to buy me signs. She got me a '28 spec Oklahoma US-62, a '48 spec Michigan US-10, and a button copy letter S.
Find a wife like that.
Quote from: Brian556 on December 09, 2019, 08:26:10 PM
Most women are selfish and wont let their guys hang any signs in the house, regardless of what they say. One on the many reasons that I choose to stay single
It depends on who wears the pants.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 12, 2019, 01:17:44 AM
My wife lets me hang up signs wherever I want, so long as she can hang up her movie and TV show posters wherever she wants, because we're both adults about it.
Hell, my wife has been known to buy me signs. She got me a '28 spec Oklahoma US-62, a '48 spec Michigan US-10, and a button copy letter S.
Find a wife like that.
Holy shit dude youre lucky!
Quote from: X99 on December 04, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on December 03, 2019, 09:28:09 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49166660807_021e7b4e43_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUFZjp)
The new most stolen highway sign in Oklahoma!
I need to get me one of these signs.. because one of my school's rivals is
Kickapoo High School (also known as kick-a-shit).
Bringing this topic back to the actual road, I was traveling up I44 last Wednesday and saw the northern end of the Kickapoo was nearly ready to open.
Eastbound (6:30 a.m. so a little dark):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413454512_52c1149a0a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNS8DA)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413454492_7e1f26b9a7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNS8Df)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50412603083_65435d27cc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNMLxM)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413299176_4dbe91ca90_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNRkto)
Westbound (about noon the same day):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413454432_7f7f1bcaa9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNS8Cd)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413299236_deef82d353_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNRkuq)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50413454362_e8098d6fe7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNS8B1)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50412602868_90de2e422f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNMLu5)
I was planning on running the barricades but there was an OHP cruiser sitting just out of shot at the top of the ramp. I'm assuming he was there to catch people doing what I was planning on doing as he was too far up the ramp to be an effective speed trap.
I spot an OTA route marker. I guess the highway isn't getting a number, at least for now.
Western Electric Model 500
I vote I-335 as it will eventually connect to I-35 on both ends.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 03, 2020, 04:49:38 PM
I vote I-335 as it will eventually connect to I-35 on both ends.
Nah, it won't be an interstate. I vote OK 340, based on the 3xx series that already exists for some of the Tulsa-area toll roads
Opening Oct 13 from I-44 to US 62.
Quote from: okc1 on October 03, 2020, 07:32:00 PM
Opening Oct 13 from I-44 to US 62.
I went looking for a cite (https://www.facebook.com/events/2720226451579591/), and... are you sure you don't mean SH 62? :bigass:
Quote from: yakra on October 03, 2020, 09:04:52 PM
Quote from: okc1 on October 03, 2020, 07:32:00 PM
Opening Oct 13 from I-44 to US 62.
I went looking for a cite (https://www.facebook.com/events/2720226451579591/), and... are you sure you don't mean SH 62? :bigass:
No its US 62/N.E 23rd St. I was heading home from Tulsa last weekend, and saw the signage that was posted above, thought it may have been open, well....nope, it was the Luther/Jones exit once again LOL.
Quote from: SoonerCowboy on October 03, 2020, 10:02:21 PM
Quote from: yakra on October 03, 2020, 09:04:52 PM
Quote from: okc1 on October 03, 2020, 07:32:00 PM
Opening Oct 13 from I-44 to US 62.
I went looking for a cite (https://www.facebook.com/events/2720226451579591/), and... are you sure you don't mean SH 62? :bigass:
No its US 62/N.E 23rd St. I was heading home from Tulsa last weekend, and saw the signage that was posted above, thought it may have been open, well....nope, it was the Luther/Jones exit once again LOL.
Click the link. That's where SH 62 came from.
QuoteSH62
No such highway exists (well, it used to), so OTA better not hire the person who wrote this to make any signs. If I've learned anything from the US/State mixup thread, the Department/agency can't always be trusted..
Portion from I-44 to SH-62(NE 23rd) opens October 13th.
https://fb.me/e/1CbMEukoW
Less than 24 hours until the opening ceremony. It will occur at:
11:00 CT
12:00 ET
10:00 MT
9:00 PT
"Here's what you need to know before part of the Kickapoo Turnpike opens next week"- article from The Oklahoman (https://oklahoman.com/article/5673236/section-of-new-kickapoo-turnpike-in-eastern-oklahoma-county-expected-to-open-oct-13?fbclid=IwAR0oKiTEIIRUwwEpCMl6uxRI1J-Ck_8NI_L8QUn809jX6OSBlLDOGBzL9Xw)
Interestingly, Google Maps has already added the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike, when usually they are behind the eight ball significantly. Likewise they were also ahead of the game with the SH 249 Extension (Aggie Tollway) in Montgomery County, Texas.
Drove up the Turner today and noticed an interesting change. Where the BGS's originally said "TO I-40", they now say "TO US 62". Also, a BYS has been added in each direction to warn motorists the new turnpike will only be open south to NE 23rd (US62). Crews were doing some cleanup work on ramps in both directions in preparation for tomorrow.
Google Maps has been updated to show the Kickapoo Turnpike, although it shows the Turnpike ending at Interstate 40, while Wikipedia stated that it would end at the intersection of S. 89th St. and McDonald Rd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickapoo_Turnpike. The page needs to be updated to reflect the opening of the roadway.
Quote from: BridgesToIdealism on October 12, 2020, 02:28:22 PM
Interestingly, Google Maps has already added the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike, when usually they are behind the eight ball significantly. Likewise they were also ahead of the game with the SH 249 Extension (Aggie Tollway) in Montgomery County, Texas.
The interchange design for I-40 shown on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3884391,-97.1954633,15z?hl=en) implies that the Kickapoo will be extended further south. Is there anything out about that?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 07:20:04 PM
Google Maps has been updated to show the Kickapoo Turnpike, although it shows the Turnpike ending at Interstate 40, while Wikipedia stated that it would end at the intersection of S. 89th St. and McDonald Rd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickapoo_Turnpike. The page needs to be updated to reflect the opening of the roadway.
Wikipedia, has it correct. Most traffic , will most likely exit to I-40, but the actual southern end, will be SE 89th St. If you do not make a turn onto 89th, then you would have to continue south on McDonald Rd.
Which is absolutely wild, since McDonald Road appears to be a privately-maintained gravel street lined with residences. What OTA was thinking lining up the ROW to this, I don't know.
Noticed more BGS changes. ODOT added a small yellow sticker with "TOLL" just below the words "South" and "North on all directional signs. I wold have assumed the large yellow "TURNPIKE" would have been sufficient.
Quote from: rte66man on October 03, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50412603083_65435d27cc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNMLxM)
If the speed limit is to be 80 mph, wouldn't that make the minimum speed 60 mph, not 50 mph?
This was done on other segments, as seen here.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2020, 08:16:46 PM
The H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur is now posted at 80.
(https://i.imgur.com/IZ55loG.jpg)
So the Kickapoo Turnpike is designation-less (as in no state highway designation)? Or are they going to add a state highway designation later on, like the Cimarron Turnpike (now US 412), the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (now Interstate 44), the Creek Turnpike (now OK 364), and the Muskogee Turnpike (now OK 351)?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2020, 01:15:32 PM
So the Kickapoo Turnpike is designation-less (as in no state highway designation)? Or are they going to add a state highway designation later on, like the Cimarron Turnpike (now US 412), the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (now Interstate 44), the Creek Turnpike (now OK 364), and the Muskogee Turnpike (now OK 351)?
I doubt it will get a number. That practice seems to be restricted to the eastern part of the state. Excluding the interstates and US412, all the signed state turnpikes are in the eastern half. AFAIK, the Kilpatrick, Kickapoo, and Chickasaw don't have a signed number.
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 13, 2020, 12:06:47 PM
Quote from: rte66man on October 03, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50412603083_65435d27cc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNMLxM)
If the speed limit is to be 80 mph, wouldn't that make the minimum speed 60 mph, not 50 mph?
The Turner is marked with a 60 mph minimum and it is still 75. This wouldn't be the only sign mistake. They still have many corrections to make.
I thought Turner was 85.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 01:47:51 PM
I thought Turner was 85.
AFAIK, the only 85mph highway in this country is TX-130.
Quote from: kphoger on October 13, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 01:47:51 PM
I thought Turner was 85.
AFAIK, the only 85mph highway in this country is TX-130.
I swear the Turner was either 85 or 80 but maybe I'm mistaken.
I wonder when/if we will see a higher limit than 85PMH in the states.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 13, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 01:47:51 PM
I thought Turner was 85.
AFAIK, the only 85mph highway in this country is TX-130.
I swear the Turner was either 85 or 80 but maybe I'm mistaken.
80 ≠ 85
The Turner gets up to 80 mph, but only on a 13-mile segment.
map .pdf here (https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/1d/fb/1d6516c5467d93e2c32c84490aed/speed-map.pdf)
SH-130 is currently the only highway in the country posted at 85 mph.
The Kickapoo Turnpike is supposed to be 80 mph.
Interesting. Many times I've driven 85ish and that seemed to be about the flow of traffic in the left lane with most people at least going 75-80.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Interesting. Many times I've driven 85ish and that seemed to be about the flow of traffic in the left lane with most people at least going 75-80.
Flow of traffic ≠ Speed limit
Quote from: kphoger on October 13, 2020, 02:40:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 02:39:49 PM
Interesting. Many times I've driven 85ish and that seemed to be about the flow of traffic in the left lane with most people at least going 75-80.
Flow of traffic ≠ Speed limit
I never said it did. It is clear I made an error when I thought the speed limit was 85. Now my point is that they should raise it.
I'm not 100% sure about that. 85 works on TX-130 because it was built with a speed limit that high in mind, and the 85-mph segments are pretty sparsely traveled. The Turner doesn't have the sight lines to support a speed limit that high, and is pretty busy for most of its length.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 13, 2020, 03:07:14 PM
I'm not 100% sure about that. 85 works on TX-130 because it was built with a speed limit that high in mind, and the 85-mph segments are pretty sparsely traveled. The Turner doesn't have the sight lines to support a speed limit that high, and is pretty busy for most of its length.
My opinion is that 85 mph barely even works on TX-130 based on the curves and undulating roadbed that exist along its length. Granted, I drove it with a heavy-laden vehicle, but 85 was pushing my comfort limit. And this is from a guy whose straight-line preferred cruising speed would be about 85-90 mph.
The few times I've driven SH-130, I usually keep it around 87 - 88 mph and have never had any issues with the curves.
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 13, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
The few times I've driven SH-130, I usually keep it around 87 - 88 mph and have never had any issues with the curves.
Yeah, I suspect that, if I hadn't been driving an overloaded van full of people, then the undulations and curves wouldn't have been as unsettling to me.
I honestly think other highways are more doable at 85-90 mph than is TX-130. For example, in the same general area: I-35 between Devine and Botines, with a few reduced speed zones around Pearsall and Dilley and Cotulla.
Most of I-37 could be at least 80 mph, similar to most of I-10 in west Texas and a portion of I-20.
I don't think we'll see any more 85 mph limits across the country aside from maybe another TX-130 situation where you've got a high quality, rural road with low traffic counts.
My experience with 80 mph limits on rural western interstates is that they're actually followed pretty well - at least within 5 mph. Depending on what state I'm in, I will typically set cruise control to 80-83 mph, which is good enough to pass about 70-75% of other traffic on the road. Seeing how actual speeds barely changed on most roads that went from 75 to 80, I don't think an 80-to-85 change would have any real effect other than to make police wait a few more mph before pulling someone over.
I'm not a fan of driving more than 85 mph anyway outside of passing someone on a 2-lane - that's where I start to notice a substantial decrease in gas mileage.
Quote from: US 89 on October 14, 2020, 11:22:57 AM
I don't think we'll see any more 85 mph limits across the country aside from maybe another TX-130 situation where you've got a high quality, rural road with low traffic counts.
Let's not forget, either, that the 85mph limit on TX-130 wasn't TxDOT's idea to begin with.
US-85, I was just about to mention fuel economy as a big factor in many not option to go as fast. Good point that will keep many in line with 80 MPH speed limits which really should become the norm across the country.
The speed limit topic seems to have highjacked this thread. Please start a new thread if you'd like to discuss speed limits across the country.
If anyone drives along the Kickapoo Turnpike in the near future, be sure to take plenty of pictures. I also want to know if the Turnpike's exits have numbers on them.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 14, 2020, 03:23:28 PM
If anyone drives along the Kickapoo Turnpike in the near future, be sure to take plenty of pictures. I also want to know if the Turnpike's exits have numbers on them.
Planning on going out there either tomorrow or Saturday.
Quote from: Scott5114Which is absolutely wild, since McDonald Road appears to be a privately-maintained gravel street lined with residences. What OTA was thinking lining up the ROW to this, I don't know.
It is possible the Southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike could be a temporary thing? I wonder if there are long term plans to extend the turnpike farther South and then West over to the Norman area.
IMHO, I don't see much value in the initial leg of the Kickapoo Turnpike, at least not for my driving purposes going from Lawton to Tulsa and farther Northeast. I'll probably just keep using I-44. Now if the turnpike was extended farther South and then West over to Norman
and then connected to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension then that would work as a functional bypass around Oklahoma City. Unfortunately there are significant gaps to fill. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension needs to be extended to I-35. I'm not sure how to get the Kickapoo Turnpike connected into I-35 in Norman. At first glance OK-9 would be an obvious choice, but I think the ROW is too narrow and there's too many homes built right next to the ROW limits.
I think the long-term goal is to get it to at least intersect with SH-9. I don't know if there are any concrete plans, because an expansion will probably require a new bond measure, and that won't be possible until this one is paid down a little. Having it terminate where it does is kind of a problem because there's basically no way to extend it south without plowing over that entire quasi-subdivision.
I know ODOT's long term plan is to expand SH-9 to four lanes through all of Cleveland County, but I don't think there's any plans for it to be controlled-access. The most recently-expanded section didn't even get a median. SH-9 really should be controlled access to at least US-77, but there's zero movement toward that that I know of. Either way, I doubt OTA would get involved with SH-9; they'd probably just leave a T intersection there and leave it to ODOT to do any upgrades to the west. Maybe they could loop it south of Noble and connect to I-35 between Goldsby and Purcell, but that's probably just fantasy.
Sure wish OTA could include planned widenings and new construction on the ODOT 8-year plan. It would have reduced the ill-will of those displaced by or near the Kickapoo.
Quote from: Scott5114I know ODOT's long term plan is to expand SH-9 to four lanes through all of Cleveland County, but I don't think there's any plans for it to be controlled-access. The most recently-expanded section didn't even get a median. SH-9 really should be controlled access to at least US-77, but there's zero movement toward that that I know of. Either way, I doubt OTA would get involved with SH-9; they'd probably just leave a T intersection there and leave it to ODOT to do any upgrades to the west. Maybe they could loop it south of Noble and connect to I-35 between Goldsby and Purcell, but that's probably just fantasy.
There appears to be a somewhat development-free gap between the South edge of Norman and Noble. It might be possible to thread a new turnpike extension through there to get to I-35.
Another possibility is ODOT upgrading OK-9 to controlled access from Jenkins Ave to the East. OK-9 has more space there and US-77 already has a freeway style exit too. What they can do is make a new freeway split dove-tail off OK-9 skirting between the sewage treatment plant as asphalt division facility. The biggest inconvenience would be having to build a new Canadian River bridge crossing. Plus, that route would probably require an elevated crossing over Bratcher Miner Road (going between the sewage and asphalt plants). You can't build an elevated freeway structure along OK-9 all the way to I-35 due to all the homes on the edge of the highway. But I don't think anyone would complain about an elevated freeway going over sewage and industrial facilities.
I still think it's possible to convert OK-9 into a freeway in front of Riverwind Casino. It would be a tight squeeze. But I think the businesses along the road are on set backs far enough to allow for a 4 lane or even 6 lane freeway closely flanked by frontage roads. The drainage ditches would have to be covered up and buried. But ultimately I think a freeway upgrade would attract more vehicles to those businesses, particularly the casino.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 16, 2020, 12:14:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114Which is absolutely wild, since McDonald Road appears to be a privately-maintained gravel street lined with residences. What OTA was thinking lining up the ROW to this, I don't know.
It is possible the Southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike could be a temporary thing? I wonder if there are long term plans to extend the turnpike farther South and then West over to the Norman area.
IMHO, I don't see much value in the initial leg of the Kickapoo Turnpike, at least not for my driving purposes going from Lawton to Tulsa and farther Northeast. I'll probably just keep using I-44. Now if the turnpike was extended farther South and then West over to Norman and then connected to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension then that would work as a functional bypass around Oklahoma City. Unfortunately there are significant gaps to fill. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension needs to be extended to I-35. I'm not sure how to get the Kickapoo Turnpike connected into I-35 in Norman. At first glance OK-9 would be an obvious choice, but I think the ROW is too narrow and there's too many homes built right next to the ROW limits.
That would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.
Quote from: Stephane DumasThat would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.
It's impossible to do a straight freeway upgrade of OK-9 along its existing path to I-35. Too much property would have to be taken. Or a bunch of it would have to be elevated, which would also be a non-starter. The easiest scenario is shooting one of the gaps between Norman and Noble and connecting to I-35 about a mile South of the OK-74 exit in Goldsby. That would be a couple or so miles South of Riverwind Casino. For good measure maybe keep the turnpike extension going West past I-35 and then shift upward to meet the H.E. Bailey turnpike extension where it ends at US-62. That would be one way to handle the gap the H.E. Bailey extension has between I-35, although I would still prefer OK-9 to be upgraded along its current ROW in that case.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on October 16, 2020, 02:23:35 PM
That would go into fictionnal territory here, but how about a east-west freeway bypass of Norman for OK-9? "Freewaylizing" the current gap in Norman will awake lots of NIMBYS.
I don't see how any opposition could possibly be taken seriously–everyone who lives alongside SH-9 has to deal with it. It is the quick way to access pretty much the whole east half of town from I-35. Nobody is happy with it as it is, and people who move to the west side often say things like "Yeah, it's more expensive, but now I don't have to deal with Highway 9." Norman may be liberal, but we have pretty much no anti-highway sentiment here.
The big political divide in Norman is east side versus west side. Those of us on the east side often feel like the west side gets all the nice stuff because it's higher-income, and the east side is kind of left to rot. The city does a good job of taking care of the east side in terms of infrastructure and such, but any time a new business comes to town, they build on the west side first, and then we only get an east-side location if the west side one gets too busy. And of course, the west side has I-35 linking it to Oklahoma City, while the east side only has SH-77H. So transportation linking east and west is an important issue for east siders.
You would only have to take property between I-35 and US-77 at the interchanges, which is doable. Some of the property that would be involved is owned by OU or the City of Norman. A freeway that hooks into I-35 south of SH-74 would do basically nothing to improve traffic on SH-9, since most people on SH-9 have destinations in Norman itself, not east of it.
I think it would be better if a Kickapoo Turnpike extension was able to terminate at OK-9 and have OK-9 upgraded into a limited access freeway through the South side of Norman the rest of the way to I-35. I think it would be the most beneficial concept. It would provide faster access from I-35 to the Lloyd Noble Center, the National Weather Center and parts of the OU campus.
The divided OK-9 highway going between I-35 and US-77 is almost the same size as a 4-lane freeway. The big problem is fitting in exit ramps.
The SW 24th Avenue intersection with OK-9, just East of the new OK-9/I-35 interchange is probably the toughest puzzle to solve. The Total Beverage Services building on the SW corner of the intersection would probably have to go. On the NE corner part of the Atwoods parking lot would get consumed. The Valero station and other properties on the NW corner would likely have to be removed as well. On top of that, some serious flyover ramps would probably be needed to overcome severe weaving issues from a freeway to freeway connection being so close to multiple exit/entrance ramps to other surface streets.
One other thing that could be done to the SW 24th Ave intersection with OK-9: remove the intersection. Just bridge SW 24th Avenue over OK-9. I'm sure residents near that intersection would probably not like that very much. But that would be the cheapest, easiest solution.
Next problems: the signaled intersections along OK-9 at McGee Drive, West Imhoff Road, South Berry Road and Chautauqua Avenue. Perhaps if the main lanes of OK-9 were completely rebuilt with the opposing roadways butted against each other, separated by a concrete Jersey barrier, there might be barely enough room to squeeze in slip ramps. The signal at South Berry Road is very close to the Imhoff Road intersection. That might make it necessary to eliminate the S Berry outlet onto OK-9. It's either that or ODOT would have to build braided slip ramps. Braided ramps require a good bit more ROW.
I think there is enough space at the OK-9/Jenkins Ave intersection for a freeway exit. West of Chautauqua Ave OK-9 may have enough space for frontage roads to maintain outlets for streets like Marshall Avenue. The frontage roads could end at an exit for 12th Ave SE shortly before OK-9 reaches the US-77 exit.
The intersection of OK-9 and 24th Ave SE could be tricky. Cross Pointe Church sits at the SE corner. There might be enough room for some slip ramps and/or frontage roads there if the church is willing to let the highway eat a little of its front yard.
You can definitely save some property taking if you're smart about where you build the interchanges. Both McGee and Berry indirectly connect to Imhoff, so you can put an interchange there and an overpass at McGee and serve all three streets. Likewise, Chautauqua and Jenkins are close enough and interconnected enough you can put one interchange in there. 24th E can be done with a parclo with the ramps in the vacant quadrants. and not affect the church at all. The trickiest ones to solve are 24th W and 12th E.
I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?
Quote from: SoonerCowboy on January 10, 2021, 09:37:38 PM
I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?
Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.
Quote from: rte66man on January 12, 2021, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: SoonerCowboy on January 10, 2021, 09:37:38 PM
I tried out the southern portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike on Saturday. It only has one lane open, at 45 mph. Not the smoothest ride I must say. I think the may have opened it too soon. Anyone else drive it yet? Thoughts?
Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.
Cannot wait to see them!!!! I drove it at night last night (from 23rd to I-40). Lighting seems nice, around the off/on ramps. Had it to myself for the most part, only 3 cars were heading northbound.
Quote from: rte66man on January 12, 2021, 05:26:14 PM
Co-worker drove it and had the same comments as you did. Going to try to drive it this weekend and grab some pics.
Sorry to steal your thunder.
All pictures northbound and licensed CC-BY-SA 4.0, since I uploaded them to Commons.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Interstate_40_Oklahoma_exit_170.jpg/800px-Interstate_40_Oklahoma_exit_170.jpg)
"You know what, Jim? The name of this road is so long nobody's gonna be able to read it from the little marker there."
"yeah so what"
"Well, maybe we should do that thing they do with every other road in the country, and give it a number. 362 would make sense, and so would 340 or 344."
"mike, that's the dumbest thing you've ever said. just put the name of the road again on there, at the bottom or some shit, fuck, I dunno"
"Should I fix the arrow so it's using the correct one while I'm up there?"
"nah"
(Exit from I-40 EB.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Kickapoo_Turnpike_speed_blank.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_speed_blank.jpg)
Blanked-out speed limit signs just north of I-40. The temporary speed limit is 45 MPH on the two-lane portions. Note that the final striping is not even done, and I encountered a few signs that were missing and had a VMS instead. Definitely a rush job to open.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Kickapoo_Turnpike_first_3_exits.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_first_3_exits.jpg)
Menu sign. No "St" or "Ave"? What is this, Wichita?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Kickapoo_Turnpike_north_of_I-40.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_north_of_I-40.jpg)
Assurance sign north of I-40.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_134_approach.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_134_approach.jpg)
Approaching the S.E. 29th Street exit. This is Exit 134, but there is no exit number on this particular sign.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_134.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_134.jpg)
Exit 134. Here, the sign grows both an exit tab and a control city. Remember that part of the MUTCD where you're not supposed to put a control city and a street name on the same sign? Good, because whoever drew up these signing plans didn't.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_136.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_136.jpg)
Exit 136 for Reno Avenue, which is again missing an exit tab for no apparent reason.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_138.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_138.jpg)
Exit 138 for US-62, NE 23rd Street. Also two control cities, separated by a slash, on a sign that carries a street name, meaning the second line of legend here manages to violate the MUTCD twice. Impressive. Also, that US-62 shield is tiny.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Kickapoo_Turnpike_speed.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_speed.jpg)
The Kickapoo Turnpike opens up to four lanes at US-62, and the speed limit rises to 80 MPH. It's hard to take pictures and drive at 80 MPH, so I stayed below that, but when I did speed up to 80 it felt like the road could handle it just fine.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Kickapoo_Turnpike_north_of_US-62.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_north_of_US-62.jpg)
Assurance shield north of US-62. Note that it is missing the yellow TOLL banner the other assurance shield had. I guess they figure at this point they don't want to scare you into bailing at Britton Road and missing out on the barrier toll.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Kickapoo_Turnpike_NE_36th_St.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_NE_36th_St.jpg)
Identification sign for the N.E. 36th Street overpass. A pleasant surprise, since this type of sign is incredibly rare in Oklahoma. Odd that it came from the agency that doesn't even sign county lines most of the time.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Kickapoo_Turnpike_Mile_139.5.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_Mile_139.5.jpg)
Milemarker 139.5. I guess OTA liked ODOT's enhanced markers and decided to install their own, although they didn't include the shield and direction that would make them truly "enhanced", which is probably fine since all of the turnpike markers would look identical at that size. They kind of remind me of ISTHA markers.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Kickapoo_Turnpike_last_2_exits.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_last_2_exits.jpg)
Last 2 exits menu. It looks like 3, but Jones is the control city for the Britton Road exit. This sign has spacing issues.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_144_2.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_144_2.jpg)
"Jim, I can't remember, are we supposed to use a slash or a line break to separate two different messages on the same sign?"
"I dunno, just put both"
"Is the text supposed to be left aligned, or centered?"
"no"
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Kickapoo_Turnpike_toll_plaza.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_toll_plaza.jpg)
Mainline toll plaza north of exit 144.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exits_149AB_approach.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exits_149AB_approach.jpg)
It's over already? But we were having so much fun.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exits_149AB.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exits_149AB.jpg)
The split approaching I-44.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Kickapoo_Turnpike_ramp_to_WB_I-44.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_ramp_to_WB_I-44.jpg)
I didn't even know they still made those floppy green things.
It's a nice enough drive, and goes through some nice-looking (I wouldn't go so far as to say scenic) rural territory in eastern Oklahoma County...just close your eyes as you get close to the signs.
The only thing that could've made those signs more ugly would be if they were in clearview. Heck that might actually make them look better.
Also, I assume the reason for the mileage being in the 100s is to align with the Turner Tpk?
Why is the Kickapoo Turnpike's exits numbered from 130 though 149 (they should have been 2 through 21)? Is the Turnpike planned to continue southward another 130 miles? This reminds me of Texas Highway 130's exits being numbered 411 to 496, instead of 0 through 85.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2021, 03:10:50 PM
Why is the Kickapoo Turnpike's exits numbered from 130 though 149 (they should have been 2 through 21)? Is the Turnpike planned to continue southward another 130 miles? This reminds me of Texas Highway 130's exits being numbered 411 to 496, instead of 0 through 85.
Is it supposed to link up with the Bailey Turnpike Norman Spur? A Future Outer OKC Beltway?
That is a wild guess. I have no idea
I have no data to back it up but a poster from another website who seems to be have some inside information on the OTA said the next planned extension is fairly soon and will go to SH-9.
Extending south should be fairly easy. I just wish more planning would happen right now to extend north to connect to I-35 to also act as a bypass. From the wording given by OTA this is just a bypass of OKC for traffic heading to I-44. But originally they had a stub proposed to Luther which got dropped and now the stub exists slightly south of I-40.
On a side note, I wish they would extend the existing I-44 freeway by Remington and build a new East to west freeway(non tolled) connecting the current junction by the zoo to the Kickapoo. That would accommodate the growth happening in that area. There are some pretty large gaps in that area with no freeways or plans for any.
Is exit 149 on I-44 also the exit to the Kickapoo Turnpike?
And is the southern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike to I-40 exit 130?
I couldn't see what the exit number from I-44 was for the Kickapoo, but 149 seems like it would fit (it's between exits 146 and 158). EDIT: A photo posted on page 3 of this thread shows that the exit number is indeed 149. Turnpike exit numbers are generally fairly arbitrary; the Kilpatrick also has three-digit exits.
The exits for I-40 from the Kickapoo were indeed 130A-B. Don't remember which suffix went to which ramp.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 15, 2021, 08:20:27 PM
Exit 134. Here, the sign grows both an exit tab and a control city. Remember that part of the MUTCD where you're not supposed to put a control city and a street name on the same sign? Good, because whoever drew up these signing plans didn't.
Quote
Exit 138 for US-62, NE 23rd Street. Also two control cities, separated by a slash, on a sign that carries a street name, meaning the second line of legend here manages to violate the MUTCD twice. Impressive. Also, that US-62 shield is tiny.
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but that thing about not combining road names and destinations is merely a "should"/support, not a "shall"/standard. In fact, if you look at Figure 2E-12, they even do it in the MUTCD itself.
Still, a "should" implies that the statement is intended to be followed unless there's some sort of overriding concern that makes not following it preferable. For instance, I could see choosing to mix names and destinations because closely-packed exits make supplemental ground-mounted signs inadvisable. Given that the Kickapoo Turnpike is about the most plain-vanilla rural highway you could possibly imagine, with exits 2 miles or more apart, there's really no reason they couldn't have followed that "should" statement.
Yeah, those signs along the Kickapoo Turnpike are pretty awful, which just goes to show that a lot more than a mere font choice goes into proper graphic design. Also, what is up with the ultra bold numerals in the I-44 shields on some of those signs? Tiny shields, but super bold numerals. Pretty crappy.
They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.
I am a little curious if there are any shields like this in Tulsa. If there's an I-244, that would make a bingo for the whole damn Interstate system in Oklahoma.
I understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on January 17, 2021, 10:07:41 PM
I understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.
What makes it worse is it's the OTA, and you have to pay a user fee to use their roads. Yeah, the roads are smooth, and you can go 80 MPH on some of them, but would it be that hard to toss in some decent signage?
FWIW, one state to the north, you could argue that the state DOT does a better job with signs than the Turnpike Authority.
Quote from: stridentweasel on January 17, 2021, 10:27:20 PM
FWIW, one state to the north, you could argue that the state DOT does a better job with signs than the Turnpike Authority.
Well, yeah, but that's KDOT. Freeway signage in Kansas is second-to-none.
Actually, every state bordering Oklahoma, save for New Mexico, does a better job on their free highways.
Quote from: Scott5114They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.
I figured they were Series E modified numerals. But the relatively tiny size of the Interstate shields combined with the way the numerals are crammed inside seems to exaggerate the extra bold (or "black") weight of the type.
It's exasperating how ODOT and OTA find new ways to goof up these signs. And they're far from the only authorities doing this. Somebody in the chain of command or maybe even a whole committee of people are making arbitrary choices and decisions on elements in sign layouts without any regard if the geometry even works -hence things like neutered Interstate shields with over-sized Series D numbers crammed inside.
The thing that's strange in the case of ODOT and OTA is the wide variety of goof-ups and lack of consistency from one big green sign to the next.
Quote from: TXtoNJI understand that ODOT does very little quality control on the signs, but you'd think the individual shops would have some sense of pride regarding their work. This set is utterly embarrassing.
Supposedly "traffic engineers" do the work, but I really have to wonder about that. The layout quality of these signs along the Kickapoo Turnpike (as well as various other places around Oklahoma) is on the par of a newbie designer working at a "cheap signs" sign company making lousy pay. The only error we don't have on these signs is artificially stretched or squeezed type or default (and illegal) fonts like Arial sneaking in there.
Quote from: stridentweaselWhat makes it worse is it's the OTA, and you have to pay a user fee to use their roads. Yeah, the roads are smooth, and you can go 80 MPH on some of them, but would it be that hard to toss in some decent signage?
I guess they're trying to imitate California to some degree: do a decent job building the new road but then install terrible looking highway signs. Hands down I think California has some of the ugliest highway signs in the nation.
Quote from: I-55 on January 16, 2021, 02:30:25 PM
The only thing that could've made those signs more ugly would be if they were in clearview. Heck that might actually make them look better.
The stuff that gets messed up with Clearview seems to be separate from the stuff that gets messed up on Oklahoma signs. Or am I just wrong about that?
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 18, 2021, 10:16:30 AM
Quote from: Scott5114They're Series E(M) digits. For whatever reason, every single new BGS Interstate shield–and some independent mounts–in the OKC area in the last four years or so has been using them. Examples for I-35, I-40, I-44, I-240, and I-235 exist now. US and state shields haven't been affected.
I figured they were Series E modified numerals. But the relatively tiny size of the Interstate shields combined with the way the numerals are crammed inside seems to exaggerate the extra bold (or "black") weight of the type.
It's exasperating how ODOT and OTA find new ways to goof up these signs.
See, that's the thing–some of the plan sheets I've seen for other projects include proper Series D digits on the Interstate shields and correct Type A arrows. These are getting substituted in by the contractor, and neither ODOT nor OTA are making them redo the work.
I'm going to try and dig up the Kickapoo signing plan and see what it looks like. Anyone got a link handy?
Found part of it. Seems like part of the inconsistency issue here was that OTA let every single interchange and its associated signage as a separate project. No idea why anyone thought that would be a good idea, but anyway...
What happened here?
(https://i.imgur.com/EnndcoE.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_144_2.jpg/800px-Kickapoo_Turnpike_exit_144_2.jpg)
Maybe Mile 0 on the Kickapoo Turnpike should have been at Interstate 44. Since it seems the north terminus is set in stone (unless they were to plan a northern extension to connect with Interstate 35 or the Cimarron Turnpike Spur), any southern extension could be done without renumbering the exits. In fact, north-to-south was the direction the Indian Nation Turnpike's sequential exits were numbered before it (along with the Cimarron Turnpike and the Muskogee Turnpike) was converted to mileage-based exit numbers in 1997.
Quote from: kphogerThe stuff that gets messed up with Clearview seems to be separate from the stuff that gets messed up on Oklahoma signs.
ODOT is an equal opportunity offender. They can goof up a sign layout regardless of the typeface chosen. We have some terrible examples of BGS panels set in Clearview here in Lawton along I-44 and Rogers Lane.
Quote from: Scott5114See, that's the thing–some of the plan sheets I've seen for other projects include proper Series D digits on the Interstate shields and correct Type A arrows. These are getting substituted in by the contractor, and neither ODOT nor OTA are making them redo the work
I can only guess a couple possible reasons why subcontractors would deviate from the sign plan sheets. One factor would be the kinds of art files ODOT/OTA provides to the subcontractors. If the files are incompatible with software used by the subcontractors they might re-make the sign designs from scratch (which would be pretty stupid). The other factor is the subcontractor might be changing panel sizes and doing other deviations as a means to cut costs and increase profits. One scenario would involve re-using existing panels in stock that are close to the size of panels depicted in the plan sheets. So they make some teenie weenie adjustments to re-use that old panel rather than order new material.
One thing I have seen happen is these goofed up sign layouts, even ones with glaring mistakes, get made all over again. The design mistakes are being "baked" into art files and archived only to be used again. Just like this beauty on I-44 in Lawton:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.6289247,-98.3873401,3a,75y,193.3h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv5Jpp630tYBMJjQi5NmaPg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192The sign layout has all kinds of odd spacing and kerning issues. What really jumps out are the "l" in the word "Plains" and "r" in "Auditorium." They're much larger than the other lowercase letters. ODOT replaced the reflective white vinyl on this panel not too long ago once the original lettering got badly weathered enough. One would assume they would fix the errors present in the previous layout. Nope! They just re-used the bad layout
as is. I've griped about this specific sign before. So it makes me wonder if some people from ODOT or their subcontractors are lurking here and taking joy in our reactions to this kind of crap.
Thanks for taking and sharing these pictures, Scott. Some of those signs look just awful.
Oklahoma sure could use some quality assurance for their signage. I'm moving back there soon and need a job... :-D
Quote from: okroads on January 19, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
Thanks for taking and sharing these pictures, Scott. Some of those signs look just awful.
Oklahoma sure could use some quality assurance for their signage. I'm moving back there soon and need a job... :-D
You're welcome! I'm not sure if that would be a roadgeek's dream job, or a roadgeek's nightmare. :P
Early welcome back to OKC–it's changed a lot since you left, but in many ways it's stayed the same...
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2021, 06:57:26 PM
You're welcome! I'm not sure if that would be a roadgeek's dream job, or a roadgeek's nightmare. :P
Early welcome back to OKC–it's changed a lot since you left, but in many ways it's stayed the same...
But if Oklahoma's signs were good, then what would the state be most known for in the roadgeek world? :D
The terrible bridges? The weaving on I-240? Whatever it is they were trying to accomplish with Rogers Lane in Lawton? :P
Don't get me started on Rogers Lane. :eyebrow:
I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
The terrible bridges?
I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma: two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
The terrible bridges?
I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma: two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.
Which bridges in particular on 35? The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.
What are roller coaster lanes?
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 20, 2021, 10:01:26 PM
Don't get me started on Rogers Lane. :eyebrow:
I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.
I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.
I mean, there's good freeway access, no freeway access, and then there's Rogers Lane.
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 03:55:01 PM
Fort Eustis, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base).
The segment of VA-105 between the cloverleaf with I-64 and the main entrance is built to full freeway standards.
Oceana would've received direct access if the Southeastern Pkwy had been constructed, with the 21 mile route between VA-168 and I-264 passing in front of the main entrance with a trumpet interchange.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2021, 05:10:27 AM
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 03:55:01 PM
Fort Eustis, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base).
The segment of VA-105 between the cloverleaf with I-64 and the main entrance is built to full freeway standards.
Oceana would've received direct access if the Southeastern Pkwy had been constructed, with the 21 mile route between VA-168 and I-264 passing in front of the main entrance with a trumpet interchange.
Never realized Ft Eustas Blvd had an interchange with Warwick. Never visited the base. That still only makes two bases in the area, when there is still no freeway access to Oceana, Dam Neck, Little Creek, Langley AFB, Fort Story, the Joint Base at Suffolk, and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. OTOH, the Southeastern Pkwy is nothing more than the highway equivalent of vaporware. I didn't think it had a chance to built when I lived in Tidewater in the Naughts (or whatever the 00 decade is called).
Eustas is also a pedantic argument. The point that many military bases are not easy to access by freeway still exists. I've also commuted enough to Norfolk NAS to know that even great highway access doesn't guarantee a good commute.
I think you're both missing the point here. Freeway access or not is besides the point. Rogers Lane is a weird road that tries to be both an expressway and a freeway at various points and manages to accomplish neither. (Go look it up on GSV.) Bobby's point is that he's surprised Fort Sill leadership hasn't taken issue with it in its current configuration and pushed for it to be converted to either a freeway or a standard arterial instead of the bizarre half-measure it is now.
Besides, Fort Sill has an interchange or two from I-44, so it does have freeway access aside from Rogers Lane.
Quote from: rte66man on January 23, 2021, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
The terrible bridges?
I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma: two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.
Which bridges in particular on 35? The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.
What are roller coaster lanes?
I don't remember which bridges anymore, because they're better now. Back around 2010-2011, it seemed like every other one was under construction. Of course, that matches your timeline perfectly.
Roller coaster lanes: there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess. I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton. With a heavy-laden vehicle, it's brutal. Even though the pavement is perfectly smooth, my suspension still bottoms out every few dashes of the white line. I think it's worse northbound than southbound.
Quote from: skluthI've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.
It's common enough with major installations. One of the original purposes of the Interstate Highway System was to aid national defense on the homefront (even though a lot of heavy equipment is moved more often by rail or even by air). Some freeways are built specifically with military bases in mind to some degree. I-H3 goes from the Honolulu side of Oahu through the mountains right to the front gate of the Kaneohe Bay Marine base. The Camp Lejuene Marine Base in Jacksonville doesn't connect to an actual Interstate route but there is a freeway that runs on the base for about 5 miles and sort of connects to the freeway half loop in Jacksonville.
Fort Sill is not a tiny, insignificant Army post. It's big, has important history and is continuing to grow. Rogers Lane runs parallel to Fort Sill's South border. It's nothing more than a glorified street with a number of dangerous design flaws, such as no shoulders and a center median that can be hopped very easily. I-44 is a
real Interstate but the Key Gate exit is outdated in its bridge and ramp designs. I'm pretty sure the exit's construction pre-dates the I-44 designation on that highway in the early 1980's. As important as the military is to Oklahoma one would think ODOT and the state's legislature wouldn't treat Fort Sill (and Lawton) as such an after-thought.
Quote from: Scott5114Freeway access or not is besides the point. Rogers Lane is a weird road that tries to be both an expressway and a freeway at various points and manages to accomplish neither. (Go look it up on GSV.) Bobby's point is that he's surprised Fort Sill leadership hasn't taken issue with it in its current configuration and pushed for it to be converted to either a freeway or a standard arterial instead of the bizarre half-measure it is now.
I don't know if Fort Sill brass hasn't pushed the issue. As I said earlier, a couple
modest updates have happened in recent years. The exits for Fort Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road used to have these flagrantly dangerous at-grade left turns across the main lanes of Rogers Lane. In Google Earth the 2008 and 2010 imagery shows the before and after result. There is no current imagery showing how ODOT altered the Rogers Lane exit with I-44. Still, even with the upgrades Rogers Lane is a hot mess.
Quote from: kphogerRoller coaster lanes: there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess. I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton.
It sounds like you're talking about the stretch of I-44 on Lawton's South side between the Lee Blvd exit and the 11th Street exit. The road is curvy, kind of hilly and the concrete slab of the main lanes has issues. ODOT has done some work projects on it, but nothing more than upgrading the shoulders and rehabbing slab joints. I think they need to do completely redo the road deck, like what they did on I-44 from the Randlett exit down South a couple or so miles.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2021, 12:43:40 AM
Quote from: kphoger
Roller coaster lanes: there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess. I can never remember if it's south of or north of Lawton.
It sounds like you're talking about the stretch of I-44 on Lawton's South side between the Lee Blvd exit and the 11th Street exit. The road is curvy, kind of hilly and the concrete slab of the main lanes has issues. ODOT has done some work projects on it, but nothing more than upgrading the shoulders and rehabbing slab joints. I think they need to do completely redo the road deck, like what they did on I-44 from the Randlett exit down South a couple or so miles.
No, I'm not talking about anything in Lawton. It's very possible I'm thinking of the stretch north of the Walters toll booth.
* kphoger goes searching the forum...
Yep, we've had this conversation before. I'm pretty sure I'm talking about heading north from Walters. The northbound lanes are especially bad. It probably isn't very noticeable if your vehicle has good shocks and isn't loaded down.
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 02:18:35 PM
I was actually speaking of the section south of Lawton. I can't remember offhand if it's the stretch north or south of Walters, but it's just bouncy-bouncy-bouncy if you have any weight loaded onto your vehicle due to the undulating roadway.
The pavement quality of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike from South of Lawton down to the Randlett exit is really pretty lousy. The quality difference is pretty staggering at the Randlett exit. South of US-70 the I-44 main lanes are recently re-built concrete super-slab. North of US-70 it's just really old slab that gets only an occasional patch job or seam repair. Even in my ordinary pickup truck I feel the thump of driving over every seam joint.
I-44 is somewhat "flat" between the crappy old ratty Walters toll booth and the OK-36 exit for Faxon just South of Lawton. But, yeah, it's a thump, thump, thump affair.
It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.
On the stretch I'm thinking of, you can look ahead toward the horizon, and the Interstate looks like it has gentle waves too.
OTA probably needs to completely rip out the existing I-44 road bed, level out the grading and then install brand new slab. They're doing that on I-44 between OKC and Tulsa (and some of that finished work seems pretty nice). I-44 between Lawton and Wichita Falls isn't nearly as much of a priority for OTA. Hell, they built the concrete Jersey barrier on I-44 from the Medicine Park exit up to the Missouri border back in the mid 1990's. It took roughly another 20 years for OTA to address the segment of I-44 South of Lawton.
Perhaps if TX DOT did substantially more upgrade work on US-277 between Wichita Falls and Abilene (bringing it closer to Interstate standards) more long distance traffic might be attracted to the I-44 corridor in SW OK. An extended Kickapoo Turnpike that extended thru Norman and to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension might do even more of the same. That might force more maintenance work on the I-44 Rollercoaster to the South of Lawton. But it's probably going to be a really long time before either one of those things happens.
BUMP
I finally got to drive the Kickapoo from I44 to I40 last month. Although it had been open to traffic for a month or so, it was far from finished south from the North Canadian River to I40. A sampling of pics are below. The full collection is at https://www.flickr.com/photos/rte66man/albums/72157719484949408
EB44 approaching the exit
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285954790_000222aedb.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8XVzQ)
First speed limit sign
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284934496_a030d2d59b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8SGhy)
First mainline toll booth. Still taking cash.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285954755_70efc10d2d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8XVze)
Approaching the North Canadian River.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284187642_4e93106a27.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8NSgL)
Road narrows for construction. Speed limit was 45!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285655249_4b0453816f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8Woxk)
Construction zone. It was clear the final layer of asphalt was still being put down.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285954835_826ba880d4.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8XVAB)
Nearing I40. Notice the pavement changes to concrete.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285954820_5dab191ffa.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8XVAm)
A closer view
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285105108_233cb192ac.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8Tz19)
Road narrows to 2 lanes before crossing I40
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284187617_5626dc051e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8NSgk)
Last exit. You can see the temporary connection to the local section line road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51284187722_0b2075f956.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8NSi9)
Quote from: rte66man on July 02, 2021, 09:33:30 AM
BUMP
I finally got to drive the Kickapoo from I44 to I40 last month. Although it had been open to traffic for a month or so, it was far from finished south from the North Canadian River to I40. A sampling of pics are below. The full collection is at https://www.flickr.com/photos/rte66man/albums/72157719484949408
First mainline toll booth. Still taking cash.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285954755_70efc10d2d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8XVze)
Even though it still takes cash on the Kickapoo Turnpike, the conversion to all-electronic tolling (AET) will happen sometime in 2022 along with the Chicksaw and the Cherokee.
A couple of things I see in the photos that got me intrigued. First, the milemarkers in the 130s. Is there a reason why they are so high instead of starting at Mile 1 at I-40? Second, on the gantry for the I-40 signs, it looks like an electronic toll collection spot but is not signed as such. Is that a speed trap? Third, LOVE the 80 MPH zone.
The mile markers and exit numbers are based on the turnpike's northern end at I-44's Exit 149: ie. one mile south of I-44 is mile marker 148, 10 miles south of I-44 is mile marker 139, etc.
Quote from: okroads on July 07, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
The mile markers and exit numbers are based on the turnpike's northern end at I-44's Exit 149: ie. one mile south of I-44 is mile marker 148, 10 miles south of I-44 is mile marker 139, etc.
That makes sense since the Kilpatrick follows the same rule going west from 44.
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 20, 2021, 10:01:26 PM
Don't get me started on Rogers Lane. :eyebrow:
I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.
I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.
I-14 goes to Ft Hood.
Quote from: bwana39 on July 09, 2021, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 20, 2021, 10:01:26 PM
Don't get me started on Rogers Lane. :eyebrow:
I'm kind of surprised the US Army hasn't intervened in the situation since a few other major Army posts have far better freeway quality access. Or perhaps Army brass has done some bitching about it that I never knew which helped result in some of the intersection modifications done at I-44, Ft Sill Blvd and Sheridan Road. The fake freeway is still crap even with those very modest "upgrades." BTW, I-44 at Key Gate also needs to be completely redone and maybe even with an additional lane. I-44 from Cache Road up to Key Gate can get jammed very early in the morning due to so many Fort Sill personnel headed to work at the same time.
I've never been to Lawton, but there are plenty of military bases that don't have freeway access. Fort Campbell, KY. Scott AFB, IL. Fort Eustas, VA (and pretty much every major base in Tidewater besides the main Navy base). Fort Dix, NJ. Good freeway access like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and Norfolk Naval Station isn't that common.
I-14 goes to Ft Hood.
Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 09, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?
bold of you to assume OTA plans things
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 09, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?
The way that they constructed the junction of the south end of the Kickapoo Turnpike implies an intention to extend it southward in the future. They already built a tail that extends south from the junction toward SE 89th Street.
(https://i.imgur.com/dgQBnEc.jpg)
On the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.
(https://i.imgur.com/pTV0Wmw.jpg)
If one studies the map, it's easy to see a possible corridor to extend the turnpike southward to Highway 9 east of Norman and possibly even southwesterly from Hwy 9 to I-35 in the vicinity of Purcell.
(https://i.imgur.com/5u8RrWu.png)
If the turnpike was extended to Hwy 9, it would go a long way to relieving football game day traffic congestion, as nearly all of the vehicles coming from Tulsa / NE Oklahoma would probably use the turnpike and enter Norman from the east, reducing traffic on the I-35 corridor in the OKC area. And if the turnpike was extended all the way to I-35 south of Norman (somewhere TBD), then it would provide an all-interstate route from Tulsa to DFW that would likely be shorter and faster than the current route from Tulsa to DFW using Highways 75 and 69 (and a lot of speed traps).
Maybe, someday.
Quote from: SoonerLater on August 25, 2021, 10:27:57 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 09, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
Are there any planned extensions of the Kickapoo Turnpike? And do they plan on adding a state highway designation to the turnpike in the future?
The way that they constructed the junction of the south end of the Kickapoo Turnpike implies an intention to extend it southward in the future. They already built a tail that extends south from the junction toward SE 89th Street.
(https://i.imgur.com/dgQBnEc.jpg)
On the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.
(https://i.imgur.com/pTV0Wmw.jpg)
If one studies the map, it's easy to see a possible corridor to extend the turnpike southward to Highway 9 east of Norman and possibly even southwesterly from Hwy 9 to I-35 in the vicinity of Purcell.
(https://i.imgur.com/5u8RrWu.png)
If the turnpike was extended to Hwy 9, it would go a long way to relieving football game day traffic congestion, as nearly all of the vehicles coming from Tulsa / NE Oklahoma would probably use the turnpike and enter Norman from the east, reducing traffic on the I-35 corridor in the OKC area. And if the turnpike was extended all the way to I-35 south of Norman (somewhere TBD), then it would provide an all-interstate route from Tulsa to DFW that would likely be shorter and faster than the current route from Tulsa to DFW using Highways 75 and 69 (and a lot of speed traps).
Maybe, someday.
The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.
I'm really dissatisfied with the lack of planning in central Oklahoma. OKC was one of the fastest growing areas in the country per the 2020 census and there is zero planning for any new freeway or even expressway facilities in areas that will clearly need them in the coming decades. ROW needs to at least be acquired before the land is developed.
Quote from: Henry on August 25, 2021, 10:35:58 AM
The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.
"stay on the 3di?" What is 3di?
Quote from: SoonerLater on August 25, 2021, 10:43:05 AM
Quote from: Henry on August 25, 2021, 10:35:58 AM
The forthcoming I-240 extension just makes things more awkward, especially at the north end of the turnpike through which a cloverleaf loop must be navigated in order to stay on the 3di. If the turnpike were to be extended south, though, I could see I-140 or I-340 being used there. But I'm pulling hard for the latter, since it currently has not been used anywhere else.
"stay on the 3di?" What is 3di?
3-digit Interstate (as opposed to 2-digit)
Quote from: SoonerLaterOn the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.
That trumpet interchange would not be all that difficult to modify into a standard cloverleaf interchange if the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North of I-44. IMHO, the Kickapoo Turnpike really needs to do just that. It needs to connect directly to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro to function as an effective outer loop bypass. The current configuration is really only going to be of value to people who live East of OKC between I-44 and I-40. I have no intention of using it on road trips from Lawton to Tulsa and beyond. Not in that arrangement. If the Kickapoo Turnpike extended Southward to Norman AND connected to the existing H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension then it would be a lot more valuable as a regional bypass of OKC.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI'm really dissatisfied with the lack of planning in central Oklahoma. OKC was one of the fastest growing areas in the country per the 2020 census and there is zero planning for any new freeway or even expressway facilities in areas that will clearly need them in the coming decades. ROW needs to at least be acquired before the land is developed.
I've obviously been griping about this very thing for many years. Generally speaking, Oklahoma has flat out sucked at highway corridor planning for at least the last 20-30 years. Much of what we see is an embarrassing parade of half-@$$ half-measures. The OKC metro has multiple examples on full exhibit. OTA built the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension
only partially from I-44
toward I-35 rather than following the f*** through. Hell, it's a miracle the Kickapoo Turnpike actually spans all the way from I-44 down to I-40. I'm kind of surprised it didn't end at NE-23rd Street (US-62). That would have been par for the course with OTA.
Then we have the dopey (and really curvy) Kilpatrick Turnpike extension from I-40 to Airport Road. The warped interchange design with I-40 and the curvy routing around various blockade housing developments pretty much shows the long term planners are asleep and other decision makers are only winging it. Now they're intending to sign it as I-240 to make it look like they did that $#!+ on purpose. OTA and ODOT missed a great opportunity back in the late 1990's to set up what could have been a Yukon to Norman Southern half of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. In typical Oklahoma style the planners zoned out and let developers eat up all the potential ROW along South Sara Road.
They need to bite the bullet and extend the freeway where it curves to connect to SH-152 and extend it south as a fully controlled access facility to SH-4. Run it through the neighborhood at Mesa Terrace street. Run it between the Lowe's and OK national guard center. Boom. About a dozen homes and a few commercial properties. Acquisitions like this are made many times in other states and this is a common sense link. It would really allow people to bypass I-44 in OKC.
https://goo.gl/maps/yydKkWLuu3tYdPwB8
What's the deal with the Quanah Parker expressway? Was it built as a temporary routing of US 62? When it was built were the plans to remove US 62 from it already in place? I also noticed that at one time, US 62 followed the expressway into town from the west, went southeast on Quanah Parker, then due north on 52nd, then east on Rogers all the way to 44. It must have been a huge mess when you had to use 52nd to connect from QP to Rogers. When was the connector from the US 62 rural expressway/QP to Rogers Lane just west of 82nd Street built? It looks like this one little stretch of highway could have had a strong impact on lessening travel time and congestion through this area.
*Disclaimer: I have never been to Lawton, so I'm solely going off of the maps I have on my hard drive.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2021, 01:21:23 PM
It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.
What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.
Quote from: kphoger on January 25, 2021, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: rte66man on January 23, 2021, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 11:03:22 AM
I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma: two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.
Which bridges in particular on 35? The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.
What are roller coaster lanes?
I don't remember which bridges anymore, because they're better now. Back around 2010-2011, it seemed like every other one was under construction. Of course, that matches your timeline perfectly.
Roller coaster lanes: there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess. I can never remember if its south of or north of Lawton. With a heavy-laden vehicle, its brutal. Even though the pavement is perfectly smooth, my suspension still bottoms out every few dashes of the white line. I think its worse northbound than southbound.
There are three major highway bridges in the Tulsa metro that are "roller coaster" spans: I-244/US 75 over the Arkansas River, the Creek Turnpike over the Arkansas River and the Creek Turnpike over Haikey Creek. None of these bridges are old. The Creek Turnpike bridge over the Arkansas River was built in 1991, the Creek Turnpike bridge over Haikey Creek was built in 2000, and the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas River was built in 2012/2014. I am not an engineer, but my assumption is that the piers were not set in bedrock, and were allowed to settle, causing the road deck to become deformed, resulting in the roller coaster effect. This is a direct result of Oklahoma's slavish insistence on awarding contracts to the lowest bidder, even if the state has had issues with that bidder in the past. They keep hiring them over and over. Many contractors in Oklahoma are crooked and shady, and they do shoddy work on purpose because it saves them money and because they can get away with it. I say if a company builds something that is as much of a failure as these three bridges are, they should be banned from doing ODOT/OTA projects for 10 years (or another appropriate amount of time) and new contracts should be written in a way that holds contractors liable when they do shoddy work. The other big issue is that Oklahomans are cheap and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes. They're the first to bitch and moan when a pothole destroys their engine*, but when push comes to shove, they vote against tax increases that would have been used for road construction and maintenance, continuing the abusive cycle. Hopefully, when the boomers get too old to vote, the younger generations will start demanding quality roads, and will be willing to pay for them. That's the only way we get better roads.
*That actually happened to my friend who lives in Fayetteville. He came to Tulsa to visit, and when he was here he hit a huge pothole, which ripped a hole in his oil pan, causing all of the oil to come out and ruining the engine. He had to get a completely new engine. All because of some Okie rednecks who are too cheap to pay taxes. Oklahoma voters expect something from nothing, and they refuse to raise taxes, even when it is essential to bring in more revenue.
Quote from: bugo on August 25, 2021, 05:39:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2021, 01:21:23 PM
It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.
What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.
Which section of US-65? The majority of it looks like standard 4 lane divided highway with a grassy median. Are you referring to the 5 lane sections near towns?
The Kick A Poo Turnpike is being sold by ODOT as a "shortcut" between downtown Tulsa and downtown Oklahoma City (the "shortcut" is several miles longer than just staying on I-44). This is nonsense, because unless you were going to certain parts of the southeastern part of the Oklahoma City metro, it would be shorter and faster just to stay on I-44. Even Tinker AFB is too far west for the Kick A Poo to be beneficial for Tinker-Tulsa traffic. It would be shorter to take I-44 west to I-35 south to I-40 east. That part of OKC isn't the most happening part of the metro, and there isn't a whole lot out there. As the turnpike stands as built today, it was a huge waste of money and isn't very beneficial. If it is extended north to meet I-35 northeast of Guthrie and to meet I-44 somewhere around Chickasha, it will be very useful and hugely beneficial. But knowing Oklahoma, this will be the only part of the Kick A Poo Turnpike that will ever be built, and it will forever be completely worthless.
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 25, 2021, 06:10:08 PM
Quote from: bugo on August 25, 2021, 05:39:22 PM
What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.
Which section of US-65? The majority of it looks like standard 4 lane divided highway with a grassy median. Are you referring to the 5 lane sections near towns?
Here's a section, northwest of Moscow:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1656778,-91.8454044,3a,75y,350.36h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdXhE7PY77st57rQxZfaX3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is east of Dermott:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5191702,-91.3671415,3a,75y,5.56h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8TX90WGDBKP5WNdYog-CzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Near the Boeuf River:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.459751,-91.3377203,3a,75y,142.09h,90.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEZZK8e9pPjfjpsQUtgbRjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Near Bayou Macon:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.409573,-91.3171417,3a,75y,147.46h,79.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6tSnHJPoB3yuNPk593xhgg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is just a little bit to the south:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3957902,-91.31258,3a,75y,311.57h,85.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3edW6N51Yekowon9So9MWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
A little further south:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3610025,-91.297662,3a,75y,12.04h,101.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swQC3Z0eZZTMEO0QEQ87Vug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I just noticed that they all seem to be near bodies of water. I wonder if that has anything to do with why they were built this way. Of course, it's possible they were designed this way from the start and were never "Arkansas Freeways".
Quote from: bugoWhat's the deal with the Quanah Parker expressway? Was it built as a temporary routing of US 62? When it was built were the plans to remove US 62 from it already in place? I also noticed that at one time, US 62 followed the expressway into town from the west, went southeast on Quanah Parker, then due north on 52nd, then east on Rogers all the way to 44. It must have been a huge mess when you had to use 52nd to connect from QP to Rogers. When was the connector from the US 62 rural expressway/QP to Rogers Lane just west of 82nd Street built? It looks like this one little stretch of highway could have had a strong impact on lessening travel time and congestion through this area.
IIRC, Quanah Parker Trailway was built from the West end of Lawton out to Cache back in the late 1970's or near 1980. What we call "Old Cache Road" was the previous US-62 alignment. When I first moved to Lawton US-62 was routed on Cache Road thru the middle of Lawton all the way to I-44. I can't remember exactly off hand when the US-62 designation was shifted from Cache Road to Rogers Lane; I think it was in the late 1990's.
Over 40 years ago I think there were serious intentions to build a freeway through the middle of Lawton. ODOT just couldn't get very far with the effort. The Quanah Parker freeway ends at 82nd Street. From there to the "Y" split with Cache Road it's a 4-lane divided expressway with a slower speed limit. A stretch of Gore Blvd just North of Downtown Lawton is a wide divided street with a huge median that has served as green space for decades. And then Rogers Lane is a freaking joke of a fake freeway.
In regard to the connector between the Rogers Lane and Quanah Parker Trailway, that was built back around 2003. There is some planning work going on to modify that interchange so the connector spans down to meet Goodyear Blvd. I think if the City of Lawton and ODOT does that it will result in a lot more truck traffic getting dumped onto Rogers Lane. Then the need will be even more desperate to convert that glorified street into an Interstate quality freeway.
Quote from: bugo on August 25, 2021, 06:55:11 PM
The Kick A Poo Turnpike is being sold by ODOT as a "shortcut" between downtown Tulsa and downtown Oklahoma City (the "shortcut" is several miles longer than just staying on I-44). This is nonsense, because unless you were going to certain parts of the southeastern part of the Oklahoma City metro, it would be shorter and faster just to stay on I-44. Even Tinker AFB is too far west for the Kick A Poo to be beneficial for Tinker-Tulsa traffic. It would be shorter to take I-44 west to I-35 south to I-40 east. That part of OKC isn't the most happening part of the metro, and there isn't a whole lot out there. As the turnpike stands as built today, it was a huge waste of money and isn't very beneficial. If it is extended north to meet I-35 northeast of Guthrie and to meet I-44 somewhere around Chickasha, it will be very useful and hugely beneficial. But knowing Oklahoma, this will be the only part of the Kick A Poo Turnpike that will ever be built, and it will forever be completely worthless.
You'd have to pay
me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
The section between SH-74 and Western will be rebuilt and expanded per OkDOTs long range plans.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44. Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44. I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west of Bethany.
Actually, the next time I make the drive, I'm considering taking the Kilpatrick over to OK-74 and then down.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
Worse than even the Tinker Diagonal part of 40?
Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2021, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44. Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44. I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west of Bethany.
Actually, the next time I make the drive, I'm considering taking the Kilpatrick over to OK-74 and then down.
You wouldn't know it from looking, but the portion of I-44 between I-40 and OK-74 actually carries the highest AADT of any road in Oklahoma. In any event, if you're not averse to tolls, the Kilpatrick now connects straight through to OK-152, which will get you to I-44 right by the airport. By the time you make the drive next, it may even be signed as I-240.
Quote from: US 89 on August 27, 2021, 12:24:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
Worse than even the Tinker Diagonal part of 40?
You know, I drive that so infrequently (if I'm headed east it's easier to take I-240 to I-40 and bypass that stretch of I-40) that I completely forgot how much it sucks. I still think it's probably not quite as bad as the two I mentioned, though (part of that stretch of I-35 is four lanes with a grass+cable median, and I-240 could be used to illustrate "weaving" in a traffic engineering textbook).
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
You wouldn't know it from looking, but the portion of I-44 between I-40 and OK-74 actually carries the highest AADT of any road in Oklahoma. In any event, if you're not averse to tolls, the Kilpatrick now connects straight through to OK-152, which will get you to I-44 right by the airport. By the time you make the drive next, it may even be signed as I-240.
Oh, I believe it. I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk. But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour. Like, twelve extra miles. I'm not so sure that's worth it. For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).
Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2021, 11:32:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 12:26:18 PM
You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...
I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).
I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44. Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44. I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west east of Bethany.
FTFY
Of all the possible routes, the one you mentioned going east on the Kilpatrick to Hefner Parkway is the best when you are coming thru on a weekend. You should try the Kilpatrick all the way back to I44 by the airport just once.
Really the question should be what freeways are nice in OKC LOL. I jest a bit. In regards to what your standards are, adequate capacity, pavement quality, aesthetic features, safety features(shoulders, lane widths, aux lanes, etc), I'd say it's a toss up though OKC has some of the ugliest freeways. Landscaping seems to be a complete afterthought.
I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality. I don't really care too much about landscaping on urban freeways. If I want to slow down and look at the trees, surface roads are there for that. I-35 is slow-ish at rush hour but it flows well every other time.
Quote from: kphogerOh, I believe it. I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk. But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour. Like, twelve extra miles. I'm not so sure that's worth it. For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).
If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive.
This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.Quote from: Scott5114I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality.
Both I-40 in Downtown and I-35 to the South of I-40 were re-built relatively recently.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 29, 2021, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: kphogerOh, I believe it. I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk. But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour. Like, twelve extra miles. I'm not so sure that's worth it. For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).
If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive. This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.
Quote from: Scott5114I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality.
Both I-40 in Downtown and I-35 to the South of I-40 were re-built relatively recently.
I40 was finished in the last 5 years while it's been nearly 30 years since I35 was completely redone. They started at the Dallas Junction around 1983 and worked south from there. That is why the stretch from SE 15th to Grans already needs to be resurfaced.
Quote from: bugo on August 25, 2021, 05:39:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2021, 01:21:23 PM
It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.
What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.
No on the INT and some other roads, there is literally a hump of grass about 18" tall that form the barrier between the lanes. Some of them have had cables placed on top of the humps. some of them are just there.
Quote from: bwana39 on August 29, 2021, 07:47:03 PM
Quote from: bugo on August 25, 2021, 05:39:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 26, 2021, 01:21:23 PM
It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.
What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.
No on the INT and some other roads, there is literally a hump of grass about 18" tall that form the barrier between the lanes. Some of them have had cables placed on top of the humps. some of them are just there.
I just clinched the INT yesterday. All of the cable barriers were installed on flat concrete. There was a portion north of McAlester where it looked like they were removing the grassy hump, bringing the dirt down flush with the pavement, in order to extend the barrier.
Quote from: rte66manI40 was finished in the last 5 years while it's been nearly 30 years since I35 was completely redone.
I-35 from Downtown OKC down to the Crossroads Mall area (I-40 down to I-240) was re-built in the early 2000's. I-35 going North of I-40 up to the duplex with I-44 is really old and badly in need of improvement.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 29, 2021, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: kphogerOh, I believe it. I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk. But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour. Like, twelve extra miles. I'm not so sure that's worth it. For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).
If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive. This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.
I totally agree Bobby, this should have been the route of the Kilpatrick extension (and maybe still could happen). My last trip to Lawton, this is the route that I took, since I had to pick up my father (he lives over by the Hobby Lobby headquarters). It sure was nice to avoid all that construction on that part of I-44.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 30, 2021, 12:13:35 AM
Quote from: rte66manI40 was finished in the last 5 years while it's been nearly 30 years since I35 was completely redone.
I-35 from Downtown OKC down to the Crossroads Mall area (I-40 down to I-240) was re-built in the early 2000's. I-35 going North of I-40 up to the duplex with I-44 is really old and badly in need of improvement.
Not disagreeing with 35 between the Ft Smith junction and Remington Park. I went back to Google Earth to confirm. In 1990, the Dallas Junction rebuild was complete down to just north of the SE 15th St exit. By 1995, the rebuild was complete at 15th and was in progress south to just north of Grand Blvd. By 2002 it was complete past SE 59th and was in progress from SE 89th to Shields. The final stretch was the I240 interchange, which was completed between 2003 and July 2005. That 7 mile stretch took 15 years to be completed.
Even though the Kickapoo exit number scheme is explained as a "count-back" from I-44 exit #149, it's also approximately the mileage from a given point on the turnpike to the TX state line at the Red River -- not that anyone thinks that this facility will reach that far south! But earlier speculation about a diagonal shunt over to I-35, if ever implemented, might actually be a close approximation of I-35 aggregate mileage as diverted to the Kickapoo. That leads to a 2nd thought: the exit numbers may well change once the pike is signed as part of I-240, so the existing scheme, regardless of rationale, is serving as a temporary "placeholder". Do any OK posters have a rough idea regarding when I-240 signage will be applied?
Hasn't cleared AASHTO/FHWA yet–this was just OK voting to send it to AASHTO, basically.
For what it's worth, even the state route changes that were approved the same day have not yet been signed (or at least SH-4 and SH-375; I haven't had eyes on 312 or 301).
Slightly off-topic, but there an arterial in Shawnee called Kickapoo Spur.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3438359,-96.9369984,1828m/data=!3m1!1e3
Very very doubful it could link to a potential Kickapoo southern extension.
Back to the main topic, Google Streetview did a coverage of the Kickapoo Tpk. https://goo.gl/maps/Qu87zH6S3yMCJB857
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on March 05, 2022, 09:52:38 PM
Slightly off-topic, but there an arterial in Shawnee called Kickapoo Spur.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3438359,-96.9369984,1828m/data=!3m1!1e3
Very very doubful it could link to a potential Kickapoo southern extension.
The "Kickapoo Spur" refers to that portion of US 270 Business, as it leads to Kickapoo St (N-S street at east end).
Drove this today around noon. It's not a busy road by any measure but I was surprised at the amount of traffic on it. I can only think more cars will use it once it connects to I-35 near Purcell.
Quote from: okc1 on March 06, 2022, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on March 05, 2022, 09:52:38 PM
Slightly off-topic, but there an arterial in Shawnee called Kickapoo Spur.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3438359,-96.9369984,1828m/data=!3m1!1e3
Very very doubful it could link to a potential Kickapoo southern extension.
The "Kickapoo Spur" refers to that portion of US 270 Business, as it leads to Kickapoo St (N-S street at east end).
Assuredly both are named after the same Kickapoo tribe the turnpike was named after, which has its capital at nearby McLoud.
Well, AASHTO has approved I-335 as the designation for the Turnpike. Which strikes this casual observer as odd since the Turnpike doesn't connect to I-35 at all. Explanation? Wouldn't I-144 be more appropriate?
Quote from: wdcrft63 on December 05, 2023, 06:25:49 PM
Well, AASHTO has approved I-335 as the designation for the Turnpike. Which strikes this casual observer as odd since the Turnpike doesn't connect to I-35 at all. Explanation? Wouldn't I-144 be more appropriate?
Christ almighty... the Kickapoo will eventually connect both south and north to I-35. The southern segment is planned and soon to be funded after bonds are purchased. The northern segment is planned but nothing solid.
So there's a toll road that junctions with I-44 in OKC called I-344, and a toll road that junctions with I-44 in Tulsa called OK 344. No chance of confusion there.
Quote from: bugo on December 05, 2023, 06:29:46 PM
So there's a toll road that junctions with I-44 in OKC called I-344, and a toll road that junctions with I-44 in Tulsa called OK 344. No chance of confusion there.
Let's NJ Turnpike it with a twist and build tolled lanes inside of the toll road and call those lanes I-344 and connect it to OK-344 in Tulsa and resign that as I-344. ;) surely something more ridiculous than that doesn't exist.
I've said it before; the "I-344" thing is stupid being applied to the Kilpatrick Turnpike -especially with an existing freeway in Tulsa already called OK-344. Derp Derpy Derp!
If it was up to me the original Northern portion of the Kilpatrick Turnpike would be called I-440, since the West end connects to I-40 and the east end connects to I-44. Makes sense doesn't it? Then the newer Southern portion of the Kilpatrick would be called I-240. There is only so many potential I-x44 routes to go round. OKC also has I-35 and I-40 running through it. So it seems pretty stupid to be using up I-x44 designations in OKC when the metro could be using a bunch of other potential numbers.
To be fair to the Transportation Commission, if you can't tell whether you're in Oklahoma City or Tulsa I doubt a highway number is going to help you that much.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2023, 12:34:33 AM
To be fair to the Transportation Commission, if you can't tell whether you're in Oklahoma City or Tulsa I doubt a highway number is going to help you that much.
Agreed. I don't think it's that much of a big deal. What's the worst case scenario here? Someone is looking for a hotel on OK-344 in Tulsa but somehow ends up in OKC on I-344? How would that even happen? Well, I guess to be fair people have driven into lakes and lately waterways in Oahu following their GPS.
They're farther apart than the two I-291s.
I did know someone who got on the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), thinking it was the DC Beltway (I-495), since their directions were simply to "get on the Beltway."
He was a rural Midwesterner...
Quote from: Rothman on December 06, 2023, 10:50:28 AM
I did know someone who got on the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), thinking it was the DC Beltway (I-495), since their directions were simply to "get on the Beltway."
He was a rural Midwesterner...
Send him this video lol. If I ever make a mistake on the road following directions(which I have) I'll just watch this video later
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 06, 2023, 01:48:49 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 06, 2023, 12:34:33 AM
To be fair to the Transportation Commission, if you can't tell whether you're in Oklahoma City or Tulsa I doubt a highway number is going to help you that much.
Agreed. I don't think it's that much of a big deal. What's the worst case scenario here? Someone is looking for a hotel on OK-344 in Tulsa but somehow ends up in OKC on I-344? How would that even happen? Well, I guess to be fair people have driven into lakes and lately waterways in Oahu following their GPS.
"Take 44 to 344"? Yeah, that's not ambiguous at all...
You can try to defend the 344 designations within 80 miles of each other, in the same state, but in reality, it's just bad practice. They should not be the same.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 05, 2023, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: wdcrft63 on December 05, 2023, 06:25:49 PM
Well, AASHTO has approved I-335 as the designation for the Turnpike. Which strikes this casual observer as odd since the Turnpike doesn't connect to I-35 at all. Explanation? Wouldn't I-144 be more appropriate?
Christ almighty... the Kickapoo will eventually connect both south and north to I-35. The southern segment is planned and soon to be funded after bonds are purchased. The northern segment is planned but nothing solid.
Thanks for the explanation. But if the turnpike is to connect to I-35 at both ends the number should be I-435.
Quote from: wdcrft63 on December 06, 2023, 05:54:59 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 05, 2023, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: wdcrft63 on December 05, 2023, 06:25:49 PM
Well, AASHTO has approved I-335 as the designation for the Turnpike. Which strikes this casual observer as odd since the Turnpike doesn't connect to I-35 at all. Explanation? Wouldn't I-144 be more appropriate?
Christ almighty... the Kickapoo will eventually connect both south and north to I-35. The southern segment is planned and soon to be funded after bonds are purchased. The northern segment is planned but nothing solid.
Thanks for the explanation. But if the turnpike is to connect to I-35 at both ends the number should be I-435.
I agree there. Not the biggest fan of I-335. Could've saved that in the event Ardmore or some other city needed a bypass in the distant future.
Fun fact: I-335 will be applied to a second toll road, with the first being the Kansas Turnpike from Emporia (where I-35 breaks away from it) to Topeka.
However, I do think a better number should've been applied, as it could be years before the Kickapoo Turnpike actually reaches I-35. If it were up to me, I would've made it I-340.
These "3XX" routes are an Oklahoma-specific convention. They defy commonly understood rules for Interstate route numbers. I don't have a problem with them assigning a "3XX" state highway route number to a toll road. But it's another thing when it's an Interstate route.
There are only three possible I-3XX route numbers in Oklahoma. What if the OTA wants to assign an Interstate number to the Creek Turnpike around the South side of Tulsa? I strongly doubt the AASHTO is going to let them call it "I-364."
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 06, 2023, 10:56:23 PM
These "3XX" routes are an Oklahoma-specific convention. They defy commonly understood rules for Interstate route numbers. I don't have a problem with them assigning a "3XX" state highway route number to a toll road. But it's another thing when it's an Interstate route.
There are only three possible I-3XX route numbers in Oklahoma. What if the OTA wants to assign an Interstate number to the Creek Turnpike around the South side of Tulsa? I strongly doubt the AASHTO is going to let them call it "I-364."
:rolleyes:
Given this last AASHTO session, I feel like anything is possible now.
So when will it be signed?
It might be a few years before it is signposted. The Kickapoo Turnpike won't have to have its southern extension completed to become Interstate 335, since North Carolina signed its portion of Interstate 587 between Interstate 95 and Greenville without having it connect with future Interstate 87 (which sputters out just past the Business 64/Rolesville Rd. interchanges).
Quote from: jdingus on December 07, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
So when will it be signed?
The Oklahoma government doesn't particularly move in a speedy manner when it comes to anything at all.
The Creek should be I-644. Problem solved.
Screw OKDOT's stupid 3xx nonsense. That's a fake rule.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 07, 2023, 06:38:24 PM
The Oklahoma government doesn't particularly move in a speedy manner when it comes to anything at all.
They replaced the circles with meat cleavers in a very short timeframe.
They did a crappy job with the design and implementation of that new state highway marker too. They're still fiddling around with the line thickness of the state shape. In retrospect I kind of like the old "generic" circle shields more. They're more legible for one thing.
Here in Lawton there is a couple OK-7 circle shield markers on SE Flowermound Road just North of the intersection with OK-7/Lee Blvd. I don't know if the City of Lawton or ODOT is responsible for installing them. They've been replaced a couple of times. The ones standing there currently look like they're in good condition.
There were several 51 circles in downtown Tulsa as of a year or so ago. I assume they are still there.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53428100604_4ae596046e_b.jpg)
This is the coolest green sign in Tulsa County. It is also in downtown Tulsa, on Cincinnati Avenue. There is another sign just down the road from this one, but the button copy 51 circle on the other sign has been replaced with a meat cleaver.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4043/4185246117_13e85c7ca8_c.jpg)