Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly

[Rothman]

I guess it depends how far one wants to consider the shoulder off the right travel lane, but in this case, there's definitely a hard shoulder.  For the most part, I would consider any grassy area to be possibly a soft area that one should probably try to avoid.

Wikipedia defines a berm as "a level space, shelf, or raised barrier (usually made of compacted soil) separating areas in a vertical way."  In this case, I think the sign may refer not to the area immediately beyond the paved shoulder (I don't know that American English has a specific term for it, but in Britain it would be called the verge), but rather to the flat-topped mound immediately beyond the shallow drainage swale.  Engineering practice in Ohio (certainly for Ohio DOT, possibly also for the Ohio Turnpike) tends to favor the provision of complex cross-sections to break up long slopes and prevent water acquiring significant velocity as it drains.  For example, the standard median cross-section is basically a "double dish" with a central mound instead of a single shallow ditch.

Most drivers would not seek to stop out of traffic by pulling onto the shoulder, traversing the drainage ditch, and stopping on top of the mound, but I can see a "Soft Berm" warning sign being useful for emergency responders who have to recover a vehicle that has run off the road and need to be advised of unusually boggy ground.

In contradistinction, the standard "Soft Shoulder" sign in the MUTCD (W8-4) is pretty unambiguously about conditions that begin where the paved surface ends.

So...the sign is only for emergency responders that find vehicles on the berm?  I don't buy it.  My bet is that it is synonymous with soft shoulder warnings.

[J N Winkler]

So...the sign is only for emergency responders that find vehicles on the berm?  I don't buy it.  My bet is that it is synonymous with soft shoulder warnings.

If that is what this sign is for, then it would help considerably if the Ohio Turnpike used the actual sign that is nationally standardized for this purpose.

[BuildTheRussian]

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4507176,-85.0460133,3a,27.7y,236.19h,84.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sns8tRUDuRLeF7tmALXXBkA!2e0!5s20210501T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Not really a sign, but a marking. This intersection was signalised, but the "STOP" writing was simply left there.

[kphoger]

I guess it depends how far one wants to consider the shoulder off the right travel lane, but in this case, there's definitely a hard shoulder.

Wikipedia defines a berm as "a level space, shelf, or raised barrier (usually made of compacted soil) separating areas in a vertical way."  In this case, I think the sign may refer not to the area immediately beyond the paved shoulder (I don't know that American English has a specific term for it, but in Britain it would be called the verge), but rather to the flat-topped mound immediately beyond the shallow drainage swale.

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).  (So does the UVC.)  This implies that shoulder and berm are not the same thing.  And, indeed, the term "shoulder" is defined as "that portion of the highway adjacent to the roadway for accommodating stopped vehicles or for emergency use" (ILCS 5/1-187.1).  So, while there is no official definition for "berm", it seems clear to me that it refers to an area adjacent to the roadway that has not been designed to accommodate stopped vehicles or emergency use.  In other words, it's the grassy area next to the shoulder.

In many places, I trust the grassy area next to the shoulder to be sufficiently hard, and I'll put two wheels in the grass if I need to make an emergency stop.  So, in my opinion, it is useful information to know if such a maneuver would be jeopardous.

[hotdogPi]

Octagons not telling you to stop. Instead, it says "slow children" at the entrance to a gas station.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0562989,-72.4402251,3a,75y,127.18h,85.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ_Cc3IH2exy4HAgakPyLKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Kniwt]

Ukrainians have covered the destinations on this motorway sign and have replaced them all with "The Hague":



Source: https://twitter.com/KatyaYushchenko/status/1498997307945140225

[kphoger]

What is a berm and why do I care if it's soft? This warning sounds like something they'd sell at Build-a-Bear Workshop.

... in this case, there's definitely a hard shoulder.

In this case, I think the sign may refer not to the area immediately beyond the paved shoulder ... but rather to the flat-topped mound immediately beyond the shallow drainage swale.

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).  (So does the UVC.)  This implies that shoulder and berm are not the same thing.  And, indeed, the term "shoulder" is defined as "that portion of the highway adjacent to the roadway for accommodating stopped vehicles or for emergency use" (ILCS 5/1-187.1).  So, while there is no official definition for "berm", it seems clear to me that it refers to an area adjacent to the roadway that has not been designed to accommodate stopped vehicles or emergency use.  In other words, it's the grassy area next to the shoulder.

Continuing down the roadgeek-rabbit-trail of berms and shoulders...

According to the Ohio DOT, this (at least) is a berm:


Source:  Ohio DOT, 203 Roadway Excavation and Embankment

I can also find Ohio DOT references to "paved berm", "gravel berm", and even the interesting phrase "placing berm material or topsoil on shoulders".

[tolbs17]

When entering a roundabout, are "YIELD AHEAD" signs necessary to even have?

https://goo.gl/maps/RYj6VCfhziw8S8X46

[Max Rockatansky]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

[noelbotevera]

Since it's been established that Ohio and Illinois define a berm as being part of the roadway, I'm wondering if this is a Midwest (or at least Ohio) exclusive sign. I never saw "soft berm" signs in Illinois or Indiana, nor in Southern Ohio. It's possible that soil around the Great Lakes is softer than normal - not enough to support a car - but I can't find more examples of this sign except on the Ohio Turnpike.

Does the Ohio Turnpike do its own signage? If they do, then it's probably an odd signage quirk.

[tolbs17]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

[kkt]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

Roundabouts in Alanland?

[Max Rockatansky]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

Roundabouts in Alanland?

In Alanland roundabouts yield to you. 

[Scott5114]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

Roundabouts in Alanland?

In Alanland roundabouts yield to you. 

This is absolutely false.

In Alanland, whenever you approach a roundabout, mountains come out of the sky and they stand there.

[LilianaUwU]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

Roundabouts in Alanland?

In Alanland roundabouts yield to you. 

This is absolutely false.

In Alanland, whenever you approach a roundabout, mountains come out of the sky and they stand there.

On a semi-related subject, it seems that y'all are trying to follow the philosophy of "the longer the quote, the happier the goat".



On a completely unrelated note, here's a unique sign explaining how lane signals work:

29184AEC-AE45-4B5B-9034-C5E334AF8FE4 by Liliana Vess, on Flickr

[J N Winkler]

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).  (So does the UVC.)  This implies that shoulder and berm are not the same thing.  And, indeed, the term "shoulder" is defined as "that portion of the highway adjacent to the roadway for accommodating stopped vehicles or for emergency use" (ILCS 5/1-187.1).  So, while there is no official definition for "berm", it seems clear to me that it refers to an area adjacent to the roadway that has not been designed to accommodate stopped vehicles or emergency use.  In other words, it's the grassy area next to the shoulder.

In many places, I trust the grassy area next to the shoulder to be sufficiently hard, and I'll put two wheels in the grass if I need to make an emergency stop.  So, in my opinion, it is useful information to know if such a maneuver would be jeopardous.

This is a good point about berm possibly having a specific legal meaning, such that "Soft Shoulder" is not an appropriate message for this specific case.

I did check the Ohio MUTCD and it includes W8-4 with the standard "Soft Shoulder" verbiage.

Does the Ohio Turnpike do its own signage? If they do, then it's probably an odd signage quirk.

They do, and were asked to "MUTCDify" their signs about fifteen years ago (much as the NJ Turnpike later was).  One distinguishing feature was the lack of border rounding at corners.  (Gribblenation and Roadfan.com have photos.)

[kphoger]

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).

Since it's been established that Ohio and Illinois define a berm as being part of the roadway ...

Reading comprehension:  F

https://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/062500050K1-179.htm

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-4511.01#:~:text=(EE)%20%22Roadway%22%20means,not%20all%20such%20roadways%20collectively.

[thenetwork]

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).  (So does the UVC.)  This implies that shoulder and berm are not the same thing.  And, indeed, the term "shoulder" is defined as "that portion of the highway adjacent to the roadway for accommodating stopped vehicles or for emergency use" (ILCS 5/1-187.1).  So, while there is no official definition for "berm", it seems clear to me that it refers to an area adjacent to the roadway that has not been designed to accommodate stopped vehicles or emergency use.  In other words, it's the grassy area next to the shoulder.

In many places, I trust the grassy area next to the shoulder to be sufficiently hard, and I'll put two wheels in the grass if I need to make an emergency stop.  So, in my opinion, it is useful information to know if such a maneuver would be jeopardous.

This is a good point about berm possibly having a specific legal meaning, such that "Soft Shoulder" is not an appropriate message for this specific case.

I did check the Ohio MUTCD and it includes W8-4 with the standard "Soft Shoulder" verbiage.

Does the Ohio Turnpike do its own signage? If they do, then it's probably an odd signage quirk.

They do, and were asked to "MUTCDify" their signs about fifteen years ago (much as the NJ Turnpike later was).  One distinguishing feature was the lack of border rounding at corners.  (Gribblenation and Roadfan.com have photos.)

And at many of the interchanges, using THRU TRAFFIC as the control city on the pull-through BGSs.

[Max Rockatansky]

For what it's worth, the state of Illinois officially defines the term "roadway" as being "exclusive of berm or shoulder" (625 ILCS 5/1-179).  (So does the UVC.)  This implies that shoulder and berm are not the same thing.  And, indeed, the term "shoulder" is defined as "that portion of the highway adjacent to the roadway for accommodating stopped vehicles or for emergency use" (ILCS 5/1-187.1).  So, while there is no official definition for "berm", it seems clear to me that it refers to an area adjacent to the roadway that has not been designed to accommodate stopped vehicles or emergency use.  In other words, it's the grassy area next to the shoulder.

In many places, I trust the grassy area next to the shoulder to be sufficiently hard, and I'll put two wheels in the grass if I need to make an emergency stop.  So, in my opinion, it is useful information to know if such a maneuver would be jeopardous.

This is a good point about berm possibly having a specific legal meaning, such that "Soft Shoulder" is not an appropriate message for this specific case.

I did check the Ohio MUTCD and it includes W8-4 with the standard "Soft Shoulder" verbiage.

Does the Ohio Turnpike do its own signage? If they do, then it's probably an odd signage quirk.

They do, and were asked to "MUTCDify" their signs about fifteen years ago (much as the NJ Turnpike later was).  One distinguishing feature was the lack of border rounding at corners.  (Gribblenation and Roadfan.com have photos.)

And at many of the interchanges, using THRU TRAFFIC as the control city on the pull-through BGSs.

Holy crap, old school Gribblenation page right there.

[Scott5114]

The good: an old circle OK-97 marker that still exists in Sand Springs: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1067272,-96.1174108,3a,15y,219.55h,88.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3xk9zWt91gYE2WQYXRHd4w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The bad and the ugly:


Unique, odd, and interesting (pull-thru and exit signage combined on the side of the road):

[ethanhopkin14]

The bad and the ugly:

Thats right after where I got stuck in my motorhome at the toll plaza and had to back up in the main lanes.  I still wake up with the cold sweats at night.

[zachary_amaryllis]

When entering the forum are 10% of my posts necessary to even have?

FIFY

I see what you are doing now. Because some roundabouts do and don't have yield ahead signs. For Ex: https://goo.gl/maps/u5s6CRuXcpSdiRaL6

Roundabouts in Alanland?

In Alanland roundabouts yield to you. 

This is absolutely false.

In Alanland, whenever you approach a roundabout, mountains come out of the sky and they stand there.

only if they are in and around the lake

[J N Winkler]

The northernmost 56 miles of I-75 are getting new signs, including bilingual weight limit signing for the International Bridge at Sault Ste. Marie:

[Scott5114]

Kg rather than kg? Oof.

[jakeroot]

The northernmost 56 miles of I-75 are getting new signs, including bilingual weight limit signing for the International Bridge at Sault Ste. Marie:

Did not realize Michigan was still specifying Clearview. Also interesting that neither situation, I don't believe, are appropriate for Clearview, yet only the larger sign uses Clearview.

As a side note, seeing stuff like this really makes me wish WSDOT would make public their signing plans. Last I checked, it was either incredibly convoluted or completely inaccessible.