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What cycle do you like?

original HAWK
modified HAWK
what is a HAWK signal?
I like RYG ped signals.

Author Topic: HAWK Thread  (Read 22255 times)

Revive 755

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #150 on: May 10, 2022, 10:48:35 PM »

^ There's a similar installation in Oak Park, IL, which runs afoul of the Illinois MUTCD Supplement.

Quote from: IL MUTCD Supplement
If used, pedestrian hybrid beacons shall be installed at least 100 feet from side streets or driveways and at least 300 feet from traffic signals or railroad grade crossings with active warning devices.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #151 on: May 10, 2022, 11:16:39 PM »

That's a total mis-application of the HAWK signal. Trying to use it as an intersection signal, though the MUTCD recommends they not be installed within 100 ft. of an intersection. Also in this case the heads are positioned across the intersection, which is not normal for a HAWK. It should be at the first crosswalk, though the Manual does not specifically say that. The Manual assumes the signal to be at a mid-block location, not an intersection.

What should be done in this situation? I say put a normal three-head signal on the main street with solid red, solid yellow, and flashing yellow. And a red flasher for the side street. No flashing on the main street. Just stop or go.

If you listened to some people on this forum, making someone stay stopped for 15 seconds to let a pedestrian cross is such a serious fault that it should be considered above every other factor when signalizing (or should I say beaconizing) a pedestrian crossing.

The fact is, there is only a certain level of complexity in signal operations that will be reliably understood by the public—especially in a country like ours with incredibly lax driver licensing requirements. It would be nice if we could incorporate a flashing red phase into these installations, but in my opinion, we can't. When you install a HAWK at an intersection, that intersection is now operating in a totally different way from any other intersection, yet there is no education or legal clarification to match this.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2022, 04:01:39 AM »

This half the HAWK on one side of the intersection, half on the other takes the cake for inappropriate HAWKs at intersections.  Can you imagine being on the side street at the STOP sign, used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out, only to meet someone proceeding on the wigwag red?  Madness! 
West Lafayette was dying to get SR 26 off this stretch so they could install stuff like this.

What's even more fun with that one?  Just go back to the Aug '18 imagery there.  They had the lights facing the opposite way then.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2022, 09:40:10 AM »

This half the HAWK on one side of the intersection, half on the other takes the cake for inappropriate HAWKs at intersections.  Can you imagine being on the side street at the STOP sign, used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out, only to meet someone proceeding on the wigwag red?  Madness! 
West Lafayette was dying to get SR 26 off this stretch so they could install stuff like this. 

That's a total mis-application of the HAWK signal. Trying to use it as an intersection signal, though the MUTCD recommends they not be installed within 100 ft. of an intersection. Also in this case the heads are positioned across the intersection, which is not normal for a HAWK. It should be at the first crosswalk, though the Manual does not specifically say that. The Manual assumes the signal to be at a mid-block location, not an intersection. 

As you already mentioned, however, it only goes against MUTCD recommendations.  It doesn't actually violate any shall verbiage.

Re: the above New Hampshire HAWK Beacons installed at intersections: this is contrary to the MUTCD recommendation that they be erected no closer than 100 ft. to a driveway or unsignalized side street. Note it is listed as a should, not a shall in the Manual so it's not a mandatory standard.



Quote from: MUTCD — 2009 Edition
4F. — Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons

Section 4F.02 — Design of Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons

Guidance:

 04.  When an engineering study finds that installation of a pedestrian hybrid beacon is justified, then:

  A.  The pedestrian hybrid beacon should be installed at least 100 feet from side streets or driveways that are controlled by STOP or YIELD signs,

In fact, language throughout Chapter 4F includes the phrase "major street" (nine instances), which suggests to me they assumed some HAWKs would be installed in locations that also have minor street approaches.  §4F.03 ¶04 even specifically provides an option for HAWKs installed "adjacent to a roundabout".
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #154 on: May 12, 2022, 12:04:32 PM »

Quote from: MUTCD — 2009 Edition
4F. — Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons

Section 4F.02 — Design of Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons

Guidance:

 04.  When an engineering study finds that installation of a pedestrian hybrid beacon is justified, then:

  A.  The pedestrian hybrid beacon should be installed at least 100 feet from side streets or driveways that are controlled by STOP or YIELD signs,

In fact, language throughout Chapter 4F includes the phrase "major street" (nine instances), which suggests to me they assumed some HAWKs would be installed in locations that also have minor street approaches.  §4F.03 ¶04 even specifically provides an option for HAWKs installed "adjacent to a roundabout".

It's actually ten instances of "major street" (one instance is hyphenated). But in all those instances, the context is really about the one street. The phrase "minor street" is not used, and the phrase "side street" is only used in the quoted context above about the beacon should be at least 100 feet from side streets. That makes me think that installations at side streets were not envisioned.

The "adjacent to a roundabout" provision is intriguing (the ped heads can be dark in a specifically studied circumstance), but there's no other mention of locating a HAWK at roundabouts. But HAWKs at roundabouts are a different animal than a HAWK at a traditional intersection.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #155 on: May 12, 2022, 12:58:59 PM »

used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out,

Well thats illegal, drivers are not to look at pedestrian signals
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #156 on: May 12, 2022, 01:51:17 PM »

used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out,

Well thats illegal, drivers are not to look at pedestrian signals

Where is that illegal?
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2022, 07:57:05 PM »

used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out,

Well thats illegal, drivers are not to look at pedestrian signals

Where is that illegal?

Good question, and even if true, how are we going to prevent people from looking at things? LOL
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #158 on: May 12, 2022, 09:50:21 PM »




used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out,

Well thats illegal, drivers are not to look at pedestrian signals

Where is that illegal?

Good question, and even if true, how are we going to prevent people from looking at things? LOL

Embed the ped signals in the sidewalk pavement, with louvres.  Might not work so well in Calgary.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2022, 09:52:35 PM »

HAWKs make no sense to me. Consider the red wig-wag phase. On HAWKs, it indicates that you should stop and check if the coast is clear; then you can go (one car at a time). Elsewhere on the roads, a wig-wagging red means to stop immediately and only go when the light stops flashing. Or take the flashing yellow phase. On HAWKs, it's treated like a yellow light at a normal traffic light, meaning you need to slow down and stop. Elsewhere (and where drivers are more likely to encounter yellow flashing beacons), it means to proceed through the intersection with caution. Dark HAWK means go. Dark signal means stop. Pretty much all the HAWK's phases don't reflect what those phases mean elsewhere. Plus for foreigners or color-blind people, their operation is not intuitive. I've said it elsewhere on this forum, but I am honestly grateful that I learned about them on here before encountering one in real life; otherwise, I could've been extremely confused or caused an accident.

HAWKs seem like they try to solve a problem with a [sarcasm]simple[/sarcasm] beacon that adds 3 additional phases just to help pedestrians cross the road a bit safer. My question is, in situations that would normally warrant a HAWK, why not just use a pelican crossing? Surely the hardware is comparable in price and just as easy to program, plus a pelican crossing is easier for drivers to understand. And if you wanted drivers to really take notice of this light, why not make the yellow phase a strobing yellow, and make the wig-wag phase just a simple flashing red?

Part of me honestly wonders if the reason HAWKs have such a high compliance rate is that they are a novelty to drivers which catches their attention more than the average traffic light. If that's so, I would bet that as HAWKs inevitably become more widespread over the next few years and decades, that we'll see steadily declining compliance rates with HAWKs as drivers become more familiar with them and how they operate. I don't think that they are a permanent solution.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #160 on: May 12, 2022, 10:13:02 PM »

Or take the flashing yellow phase. On HAWKs, it's treated like a yellow light at a normal traffic light, meaning you need to slow down and stop. Elsewhere (and where drivers are more likely to encounter yellow flashing beacons), it means to proceed through the intersection with caution.

The flashing yellow phase on a HAWK means you need to slow down and prepare to stop.  Not that you need to slow down and stop.  It's basically like a flashing green ball on a Mexican stoplight.

The solid yellow phase is treated like a yellow light at a normal traffic light.



By the way...  For all of you Wikipedia editors out there...  The article about HAWK beacons has some incorrect information about emergency-vehicle hybrid beacons.  See below.

Quote from: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAWK_beacon#Alternating_flashing_red_aspect

Emergency-vehicle hybrid beacons, for emergency vehicle facilities (i.e. fire stations), use the same signal head design, and uses an alternating flashing red aspect to protect departing emergency vehicles. The only distinguishing part of the design is a different sign, R10-14, is used with the signal. Unlike at a HAWK beacon, drivers are expected to remain stopped during this time, to allow emergency vehicles to enter the roadway.[1]: 513–515 

References
1.  Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Washington, DC: Federal Highway Administration. 2009. OCLC 777002425. Retrieved August 11, 2021.

However, the very MUTCD that is linked to in the reference states otherwise.

Quote from: MUTCD — 2009 Edition
CHAPTER 4G.  TRAFFIC CONTROL SIGNALS AND HYBRID BEACONS FOR EMERGENCY-VEHICLE ACCESS

Section 4G.04  Emergency-Vehicle Hybrid Beacons [p 514]

Standard:

06.  Upon actuation by authorized emergency personnel, the emergency-vehicle hybrid beacon faces shall each display a flashing yellow signal indication, followed by a steady yellow change interval, prior to displaying two CIRCULAR RED signal indications in an alternating flashing array for a duration of time adequate for egress of the emergency vehicles. The alternating flashing red signal indications shall only be displayed when it is required that drivers on the major street stop and then proceed subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign. Upon termination of the flashing red signal indications, the emergency-vehicle hybrid beacons shall revert to a dark mode (no indications displayed) condition.
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PurdueBill

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2022, 11:50:21 AM »

used to seeing a flashing Don't Walk meaning that cross traffic would have a red light and pulling out,

Well thats illegal, drivers are not to look at pedestrian signals

Where is that illegal?

Good question, and even if true, how are we going to prevent people from looking at things? LOL

Chicago Mayor Emanuel once said how great it was that pedestrian signals were countdown style so drivers could see how long they had before the yellow light so they would not get caught by the red light cameras.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-pedestrian-countdown-timers-red-light-camera-perspec-zorn-0304-jm-20150303-column.html

Whether it is what drivers are supposed to be doing, it is what people do as consequences of design like short yellows at camera intersections or HAWKs at intersections where the side street could use the WALK signal to see more clearly that the main drag has red.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2022, 10:10:45 PM »

Does anyone know of any HAWK signals erected by New York State DOT, especially on Long Island? I haven't seen any yet and I'm wondering if NYSDOT is embracing this concept with the same zeal as flashing yellow arrows which they're putting up all over the place.

My native Nassau County DPW so far has not put up any HAWK's that I know of, and so far they don't seem to be using FYA's either. They stick to the KISS principle, (Keep It Simple Stupid) which I kind of agree with.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2022, 10:43:12 PM »

Does anyone know of any HAWK signals erected by New York State DOT, especially on Long Island? I haven't seen any yet and I'm wondering if NYSDOT is embracing this concept with the same zeal as flashing yellow arrows which they're putting up all over the place.

My native Nassau County DPW so far has not put up any HAWK's that I know of, and so far they don't seem to be using FYA's either. They stick to the KISS principle, (Keep It Simple Stupid) which I kind of agree with.
There's probably one somewhere.

You will not see new HAWKs in Region 3 (Central NY).  Region 3 has determined other safety measures are more effective, per my understanding.

I am a big fan of FYAs.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2022, 11:43:31 PM »

City of Somerville MA just retimed their PHBs to only flash red after the pedestrian signal reached 0 on the FDW for 3 seconds. It is a lot safer.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2022, 09:34:30 AM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2022, 10:27:42 AM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.

Exactly. If the pedestrian countdown is at 0, why the hell do you still have the flashing phase?

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2022, 07:56:02 PM »

Anyone else notice the steady-yellow in that video is not even two seconds long? MUTCD recommends three seconds, minimum using the usual word should.
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jakeroot

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2022, 08:08:10 PM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.

Exactly. If the pedestrian countdown is at 0, why the hell do you still have the flashing phase?

It would appear to be the first example of a pre-green signal in the US! Aka, "clutch-in" time.

Anyone else notice the steady-yellow in that video is not even two seconds long? MUTCD recommends three seconds, minimum using the usual word should.

I'm not usually too bothered by short yellows unless there's a camera; it's definitely very short, though. But then it doesn't seem Somerville quite gets the idea with the HAWK to begin with, so I guess we'll have to excuse them.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2022, 10:23:12 PM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.

Exactly. If the pedestrian countdown is at 0, why the hell do you still have the flashing phase?
Think of it as an all red phase almost.


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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #170 on: May 15, 2022, 01:21:04 AM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.

Exactly. If the pedestrian countdown is at 0, why the hell do you still have the flashing phase?
Think of it as an all red phase almost.


iPhone

Which is what the 3 seconds after the countdown timer reaches 0 is supposed to be...

All I see in that video is a couple of pedestrians not even waiting for their light to change before starting to cross (that's another thing I seem to observe a lot with HAWKs) and then several cars and bikes being held up for quite a bit by the extended double red. I hate having to come to a full stop and wait at pedestrian signals when nobody is even there and I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2022, 09:31:30 AM »

^^^
They should have just installed a regular half signal (signal for main road, stop sign for side road). They’ve defeated the entire point of the HAWK.

Exactly. If the pedestrian countdown is at 0, why the hell do you still have the flashing phase?
Think of it as an all red phase almost.


iPhone

Which is what the 3 seconds after the countdown timer reaches 0 is supposed to be...

All I see in that video is a couple of pedestrians not even waiting for their light to change before starting to cross (that's another thing I seem to observe a lot with HAWKs) and then several cars and bikes being held up for quite a bit by the extended double red. I hate having to come to a full stop and wait at pedestrian signals when nobody is even there and I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.
I think even a standard RRFB could have worked better in this instance. The city is looking at installing a RYG full signal here instead. Here’s a similar HAWK on the same corridor, similar issues and timing.

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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2022, 03:02:31 PM »

The signals in those examples seemed very poorly configured. Between the extra short yellow, the extra short flashing red, and the glitchy transitions, those are not great.
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2022, 03:34:31 PM »

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?
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Re: HAWK Thread
« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2022, 08:01:06 PM »

Considering that the MUTCD recommends against installing HAWK's within 100 ft. of side streets and driveways controlled by stop or yield signs, I'm amazed that so many of them in many states seem to be AT such intersections.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at the above example in Massachusetts with the barely two second steady-yellow. That state has a long history of doing whatever they want regardless of what the Manual says. LOL
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