News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Your opinion: has Major League Soccer turned the “Big Four” into the “Big Five”?

Started by KCRoadFan, October 18, 2021, 07:58:44 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

KCRoadFan

Hi everyone:

I'd like to see what you all think on this subject: in your opinion, has Major League Soccer (MLS) grown enough in stature and importance, within the larger framework of American sports culture in general, to warrant being called a "fifth major league"  on par with the "Big Four"  leagues of Major League Baseball, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL? Should the "Big Four"  really be called the "Big Five"  major sports leagues? Why or why not?


Bruce

MLS popularity is still fairly regional, but in that sense it's like hockey (which doesn't have a national following in the same sense as the big 3). If the NHL is to be included, the MLS should too (despite the gap in revenue, mostly a product of TV companies low-balling).

Considering the league is only 25 years old and has a much deeper talent pool to draw from, it can only go up from here.

jeffandnicole

Not even close. They get discussed briefly on game day, and sometimes a few additional stories here and there. But nowhere near the attention of the Big Four. Usually much smaller stadiums, on par of a NHL or NBA arena, but with a fraction of the games.

Max Rockatansky

No, the last time I had a conversation about the MLS was in Orlando circa 2015.  In fact Orlando is the only City I can recall living or working in that even had a sizable MLS fan base.  A problem the MLS has that it isn't even the premier league in it's own sport.  I've often heard the MLS compared to something of a in between of Triple A baseball and the MLB. 

TheHighwayMan3561

self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

JayhawkCO

Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match.  It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.

Chris

hotdogPi

One FiveThirtyEight article tried to include the WNBA as the fifth sport. More than half the comments said that they should not have been included in the analysis, especially since MLS was excluded.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 08:07:15 PM
Not even close. They get discussed briefly on game day, and sometimes a few additional stories here and there. But nowhere near the attention of the Big Four. Usually much smaller stadiums, on par of a NHL or NBA arena, but with a fraction of the games.

Seattle Sounders averaged 40k per game in 2019.  The Mariners averaged 15k.

Chris

Bruce

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.

The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.

MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.

Bruce

The Wikipedia article on MLS attendance lays out the average attendance of teams and compare them to the other sports in their metro area, which gives some idea of relative popularity.

In terms of 2019 average attendance, the top teams:
Atlanta United FC - 52,510 (peaked at 53,002 in 2018)
Seattle Sounders FC - 40,247 (peaked at 44,245 in 2015)
FC Cincinnati - 27,336
Portland Timbers - 25,218
Toronto FC - 25,048 (was 26,628 in 2018)
LA Galaxy - 23,205 (peaked at 26,009 in 2008)
Orlando City SC - 22,761
Los Angeles FC - 22,251
New York City FC - 21,107 (despite playing in a baseball stadium)

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.

The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.

MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.

See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports.  The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports. 

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.

The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.

MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.

See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports.  The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports.

So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?

Chris

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 09:53:48 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
No. American soccer fans care about Europe, not their local MLS teams.

The most-watched league in the U.S. is Liga MX, and their teams draw huge followings when they do play on American soil.

MLS matches do go neck-and-neck with Premier League matches, though the former are scheduled at more convenient times. The quality of play is comparable to the second division of England at best, which would still put it in the top 20 of leagues worldwide.

See for me that's why I can't put it on the same level as the traditional big four American sports.  The MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL are unquestionably the premier leagues in their respective sports.

So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?

Chris

The problem with soccer in general is that it is completely fragmented professionally and revolves around international team play.  So yes, there being no singular professional top premier league of soccer.  Out of those professional leagues the MLS is pretty low on the totem pole if we are talking "top 20."   There is no way the MLS domestically can be considered to be on the same league as the NBA, MLB, NHL and NFL. 

Pertaining to Germany I couldn't comment.  But then again the question posed by the OP was about American professional sports. 

thspfc

The Big 4 is dead. Or maybe it never really existed. Realistically, it's a Big 1 (NFL), and then you have the next-biggest 6: NBA, college football, MLB, MLS, NHL, and college basketball.

Max Rockatansky

College football and basketball aren't anywhere near the level of their professional counterparts.  They might be a big draw but they aren't the same level of competition.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 09:53:48 PM
So the Bundesliga isn't in the "Big X" sports in Germany because it isn't as good as the English Premier League?

Chris

The problem with soccer in general is that it is completely fragmented professionally and revolves around international team play.  So yes, there being no singular professional top premier league of soccer.  Out of those professional leagues the MLS is pretty low on the totem pole if we are talking "top 20."   There is no way the MLS domestically can be considered to be on the same league as the NBA, MLB, NHL and NFL. 

Pertaining to Germany I couldn't comment.  But then again the question posed by the OP was about American professional sports.

Not sure I agree with you.  When you say soccer revolves around international team play, do you mean international soccer is more popular than club soccer?  If that's what you're saying, then that's 100% wrong.  Ratings are a lot higher for club soccer than they are for international overall.  Even the Champions League final has higher ratings than the World Cup final.

But we are just talking about American sports.  So if an American sports team has higher attendance than another team in the same town, how are you deeming that not to be as popular?  If you go to Seattle, I guarantee you see more Sounders paraphernalia on cars (bumper stickers, magnets, etc.) than you see Mariners stuff.  The attendance is higher per game.  Yeah, they don't play 81 home games, but if you're judging interest on any given game, then I don't see how the attendance isn't relevant. 

Again, going back to my Germany example.  The Bundesliga is a popular league overall, but according to the FIFA coefficients, it's not as good of a league as England's.  But it's obviously very popular in Germany, and would have to be considered in the top tier of German sports (it's by far and away #1, but just to try to keep the analogy to U.S. sports, we can include things like basketball and handball).  So the quality of the league in a given country compared to leagues elsewhere should be irrelevant.  There was probably a time that the Soviet Super League's hockey was far superior to the NHL, but that didn't stop us from calling the NHL a "Big Four" sport here.

Chris

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:08:40 PM
College football and basketball aren't anywhere near the level of their professional counterparts.  They might be a big draw but they aren't the same level of competition.

No one is saying that 'Bama is beating the Lions.  Popularity is the measure of "Bigness", not quality of play.

Chris

Max Rockatansky

I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport? 

Bruce

Focusing on the quality of play is a distraction.

The size of fandoms (in the crowd and around town) are far more important than whether a team has the best-of-best players. Soccer is number 1 globally not because every nation has a team in the top-tier competition, but because it draws the most fans and the most coverage.

MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker with advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

JayhawkCO

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match.  It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.

Chris

"Every Match" equals 17 home games.  Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.

1995hoo

Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.