Amtrak's Thirty Year Plan for the NEC

[iwishiwascanadian]

Today Amtrak released a plan for the Northeast Corridor which would cut travel times from DC to Boston to 3 hours and 23 minutes.  They want to do this by building a new line that would run through the same areas south of New York but would move inland north of New York (through White Plains, Danbury, Waterbury, Hartford and Woonsocket).  The price tag would be $117 billion and the project wouldn't be done until 2040.  Any thoughts?

[mightyace]

Certainly an interesting idea that would give true high-speed rail to an area of the country that has already shown it's support for intercity rail travel.  But, as usual, the question is, can they get the money?

[Alps]

I fail to see how this line can ever recoup $117 billion of cost.  If you want to get from DC to Boston in 3:23, take an airplane.  Probably cheaper than this line would be.  Ridiculous, a waste of time, and a fantasy.

[J N Winkler]

Out of interest, how many planeloads are there between DC and Boston daily?

[mightyace]

I fail to see how this line can ever recoup $117 billion of cost.  If you want to get from DC to Boston in 3:23, take an airplane.  Probably cheaper than this line would be.

I don't know about the DC/Boston route, but Amtrak has around 30% market share between NY and either DC or Boston.  That is higher than any individual airline.

[njroadhorse]

I fail to see how this line can ever recoup $117 billion of cost.  If you want to get from DC to Boston in 3:23, take an airplane.  Probably cheaper than this line would be.

I don't know about the DC/Boston route, but Amtrak has around 30% market share between NY and either DC or Boston.  That is higher than any individual airline.

And honestly, it's a lot better than any damn airplane nowadays, and that's saying something.  I just did the NEC from Washington to Newark and was pleasantly surprised by what I experienced on the train.

[deathtopumpkins]

I disagree. I have recently flown Newport News, VA to Boston, and was very impressed. Nonstop, 50-minute flight. No big hassles at security (I was on the plane 20 minutes after I got to the airport), and it was a nice comfortable flight. This was on Airtran, btw.

I've looked into taking Amtrak instead, but have always chosen not to because, for one thing, I would arrive in Boston in the middle of the night, and it takes quite a long time, even on the Acela, and it is just so expensive! I was looking at around $200 on Amtrak, whereas flying Airtran cost me about $70 with taxes/fees each way. No matter how much I would love to do it, taking Amtrak is just too damn inconvenient.

[agentsteel53]

No big hassles at security (I was on the plane 20 minutes after I got to the airport),

how the Hell did you pull that off?

[TheStranger]

No big hassles at security (I was on the plane 20 minutes after I got to the airport),

how the Hell did you pull that off?

I suspect that a place like the Hampton Roads area has a smaller, less busy airport than one of the majors, which by itself reduces check-in time...

In July, it took me only 35 minutes from arrival at Austin-Bergstrom to be on board the plane going back to California - and this was while I was very pressed for time!

[froggie]

mightyace asks the right question...where to get the money.  Improvements to the NEC are long needed, but given the vagaries of politics on Capitol Hill, I don't see this being funded.  More realistic would be incremental improvements to the existing corridor that will improve travel times.

Regarding Alps' comment to "take an airplane", I'd like to point out two things:  first, when gas prices jump back up (not a question of IF but of WHEN), the airlines will feel the pinch much more than the railroads will.  Second, airline travel is the mode most impacted by inclement weather (including and in particular winter weather), while rail isn't impacted quite as much by those Nor'easters we get every now and then.

[mightyace]

Another factor in Amtrak's favor in the NEC is that you get off in downtown whereas you have to take additional transportation to get to/from the airport.  So, that evens the playing field somewhat.

However, as DTP said, Amtrak's NEC in its current state is not time competitive for the full DC/Boston run.  For NY to DC or Boston, that's another story.

[Zmapper]

One word: MAGLEV!

[mightyace]

The issue with Maglev is that it requires a dedicated right-of-way.

Now, the TGV and Amtrak's Acela need a dedicated ROW to hit their maximum speeds.  However, since they are built to the same standard gauge rails as the rest of their respective networks, they can run on non-high speed lines as well.

For example, let's assume Amtrak's pipe dream becomes reality.  It might still use the trackage in and out of Penn Station in New York City as building new ROW on and under Manhattan is hellishly expensive and the trains wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the track anyway.

[Michael in Philly]

And this is supposed to be done 30 years from now?
Somewhere, the French and Japanese are laughing at us....

[iwishiwascanadian]

Well, according to the plan, the route from DC to NYC would be finished first and then NYC to Boston would be finished.  DC to NYC would be done in about 15-20 years. 

[Duke87]

It will never happen, because:

1) nobody can afford it. We don't have $117 billion to throw at anything, and we're kidding ourselves if we think the actual cost wouldn't end up being at least triple that.
2) it would take too long. There would be enough election cycles within the construction period that even if it started, it would have a high probability of being stopped before it's finished as the political tides shift.
3) NIMBYs.

[NJRoadfan]

how the Hell did you pull that off?

I have never had a problem with airport security. Heck I had a carry on only and my flight from RDU to EWR was boarding when I arrived at the airport (long story, don't ask). Breezed through security and right onto the plane.... just like in the movies.... sometimes reality follows fantasy.

As for Amtrak, I'd use them from NC trips but..... its longer then driving. Once you get south of DC, the train is SLOW to Richmond and Cary. Plus the timetables are oddball hours and its not a one seat ride, you have a layover at Union Station in DC.... and flights can be a bit cheaper too. Granted flying and driving have their headaches (flying into EWR is a PITA with air traffic delays, and well I-95), but they are still a bit faster and cheaper then the train.

[deathtopumpkins]

My flight left PHF at about 6 AM, so there was hardly anybody at the airport. No line at security. They did make me unpack everything, and my laptop did set off an alarm when swabbed, but they did a test on it and it came back fine, so, after annoyingly having to repack my creatively-packed carry-on bag, I was through security in maybe 5 minutes.  Leaving Logan was even easier. Just walked through a metal detector. No full-body scanner thing, no unpacking my stuff, no swabbing my laptop. Just walked through and boarded the plane.

For about $100 if booked a few weeks in advance, I can go up to Boston in the morning, spend the day with my family up there, and be home in time for dinner if I fly.

For about $300 if booked YEARS in advance, I can board a train here around mid-day and get into Boston around 3 AM, right after one of the two return trains left, which would easily make the same trip a 3-day affair.

[SP Cook]

The answer really, outside the NEC, is to close Amtrak.  In the NEC, conver it into something that either makes a profit, or is subsidized by the taxpayers of the region that uses it alone.

[english si]

130mph average - that's breaking the 200km/h barrier, so I'm guess stretches of segregated HSL where possibly, but having to merge back in.

I'd imagine upgrading the infrastructure would pull more people off planes and that most of the flyers between NEC cities would be transferring to/from another plane.

However it's only really useful for travel between those cities - there's little point of going on a crappy train from the Hampton Roads to DC and then whizzing off to Boston.

And the cost is rather high in comparison to flying - France got lucky and got HSR there before cheap flights came via EU deregulation (well additional regulations that look like deregulation - silly German law model of needing the law to allow you to do something, rather than the law just prohibiting stuff) - there are no Paris - Brussels flights, or Paris - Lyon flights. And the Brussels-Lyon service has Air France codes, forming the 'air flight' between Paris and the two cities (it stops at Charles de Gaulle airport as it skirts the edge of Paris).

As far as I can tell, no Londoner flies to Paris and vice versa (unless very rich) - there are flights, but Heathrow and CdG are hub airports, and it might be cheaper, or easier to fly via Paris or London (CdG better serves the Francophone world, Heathrow the Anglophone world). I nearly flew from London to Orlando via Amsterdam (going the wrong way) as KLM/Northwest were cheaper. Instead via Detroit was cheaper still.

[Scott5114]

My flight left PHF at about 6 AM, so there was hardly anybody at the airport. No line at security. They did make me unpack everything, and my laptop did set off an alarm when swabbed, but they did a test on it and it came back fine, so, after annoyingly having to repack my creatively-packed carry-on bag, I was through security in maybe 5 minutes.

Er...swabbed?

[oscar]

My flight left PHF at about 6 AM, so there was hardly anybody at the airport. No line at security. They did make me unpack everything, and my laptop did set off an alarm when swabbed, but they did a test on it and it came back fine, so, after annoyingly having to repack my creatively-packed carry-on bag, I was through security in maybe 5 minutes.

Er...swabbed?

Yeah, for traces of explosive chemicals.  That's happened to me a few times, especially when I asked for hand-inspection of my film (before my switch to digital cameras).

[Scott5114]

Why would a laptop have explosive chemicals? I'm not really following the TSA's logic here...

[mightyace]

^^^

A normal laptop wouldn't.  I guess they're looking fore someone that turned a laptop into a bomb.

[NJRoadfan]

I'd imagine upgrading the infrastructure would pull more people off planes and that most of the flyers between NEC cities would be transferring to/from another plane.

This is already true, most of the people on those short haul flights aren't flying between NE Corridor cities. They are connecting flights to a hub airport. Most of the flights to Raleigh and Boston I have taken were filled with people going to/from Europe and Asia as EWR is Continental's hub. Frequent flights between the cities will always be there for this reason. Granted Continental codeshares with Amtrak, but I don't see people from Boston landing at EWR, hopping on the Airtrain monorail, and then catching an Acela train to South Station... with luggage.