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Interstate 369

Started by Grzrd, October 19, 2013, 10:41:06 AM

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dariusb

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 20, 2019, 02:35:31 PM
The I-369 corridor is definitely a priority for TX DOT. However, that doesn't mean they're giving segments of I-69 farther South toward Houston a short shrift. The nearer term emphasis is on building bypasses and/or upgrading segments of US-59 to Interstate quality in small cities along the corridor, such as segments of I-69 in Lufkin-Diboll and Nacogdoches. Basically TX DOT has to get ahead of the very messy, anything goes nonsense in many communities along the route that stupidly allow developers to build way too close to the highway ROW. These jerk developers have known the Interstate was coming for many years but choose to build in the way anyway.

Unfortunately the emphasis of getting ahead of developers in towns and small cities along the way comes at the expense of building the longer rural connections of I-69 and I-369.

A lot of planning work has already gone into I-369 in the Marshall area. That is compounded by TX DOT efforts at extending the TX Toll-49 highway from Tyler up across I-20 over the top of Longview and ending at I-369. I'm a little surprised TX DOT intends to build a directional stack interchange with I-20 and I-369. If the same project was taking place in Oklahoma it would almost certainly be built as an old fashioned (and CHEAP) cloverleaf interchange. ODOT couldn't build a stack interchange to save its own life.

I think TX DOT needs to work much harder and much much faster at simply securing the required ROW for I-69 and I-369 and clearing the properties in the way off of the corridor. Texas is seeing unprecedented rapid growth and development. The standard operating procedure process of literally taking decades to build any of this new highway infrastructure simply is not going to work. While TX DOT and others spend years endlessly studying a given corridor segment all sorts of hair-brained, greedy developers are going to continue building all over the land on the proposed corridor. Each year that passes will see more and more homes, businesses hugging up next to US-59, along with lots of driveways spilling traffic directly onto the US-59 main lanes.

It's a Catch-22 situation with these towns. Many of them want the new Interstate coming thru town, along existing US-59 so it doesn't bypass the town on a new terrain alignment. But the town fathers in many of these places have so little discipline at keeping developers in line and keeping their new buildings and driveways off the existing corridor that it all but forces the Interstate on a new terrain alignment.
When you mentioned cities letting developers build too close to the proposed road, that's exactly what happened concerning where I-369 terminates at I-30. The northern loop was supposed to start from there but because so much development was allowed there a whole new I-30 interchange had to be found.
It's a new day for a new beginning.


sparker

Quote from: dariusb on September 06, 2019, 08:54:31 PM
When you mentioned cities letting developers build too close to the proposed road, that's exactly what happened concerning where I-369 terminates at I-30. The northern loop was supposed to start from there but because so much development was allowed there a whole new I-30 interchange had to be found.

IIRC, the north loop and any western TX-based bypass of Texarkana west of the currently designated I-369 along US 59 has been shelved for the time being, with I-369 simply terminating where it does now at I-30 (at least it has an appropriate interchange for doing so!).  Whether that loop will be revived down the line is yet TBD; it's assumed that I-369 traffic to and from I-30 will follow the current route, while traffic intended for northward I-49 -- whenever that facility becomes a reality -- will have a choice of using I-30 or, more simply, Loop 151 (which may gain Interstate status at some point if brought up to standard).  The development situated in the path north of the current 30/369 interchange was there well prior to the 1991 establishment of the I-69 family of corridors; while part of the original regional "brief" was to shunt traffic to both I-30 and I-49, it's become clear that providing I-369 access to the former has been given priority over the latter, particularly since the former actually exists and the latter is at best indefinitely tentative -- and out of the developmental hands of the I-69 TX backers.  So for the time being the I-369 construction emphasis will be from Tenaha to SW Texarkana so as to complete that 115-mile corridor; a direct and more efficient connection to I-49 north of town will have to be in the form of a future revived west/north loop, which may or may not carry the I-369 designation -- but in reality no one will even be thinking about that until the main I-49 trunk is at least let and underway.  And as far as ROW preservation in TX is concerned, a lot of that is complicated by the fact that most zoning and developmental decisions occur at the county-by-county level, so TxDOT has to put up with longstanding and varying local structure and idiom when it comes to the decision to upgrade the existing route or bypass it with new-terrain construction.  So far -- at least to the south along the I-69 trunk, the results have been mixed, with some new-terrain planning combined with in situ improvements.  Again, to reiterate a cliche', in TX all politics is local -- and it shows!

dariusb

Since there are a lot of businesses in the SW portion of the city construction through there will be challenging. I wonder will that section be elevated? I read that traffic counts on I-30 will triple in the coming years, no doubt increased by the addition of traffic from I-369. Plans are to make I-30 six lanes between New Boston and Texarkana in anticipation of increased traffic. Traffic counts on I-30 through Texarkana are 85,000. Over the next 10-15 years counts are expected to triple which is crazy to me.
It's a new day for a new beginning.

sparker

Quote from: dariusb on September 08, 2019, 03:19:08 AM
Since there are a lot of businesses in the SW portion of the city construction through there will be challenging. I wonder will that section be elevated? I read that traffic counts on I-30 will triple in the coming years, no doubt increased by the addition of traffic from I-369. Plans are to make I-30 six lanes between New Boston and Texarkana in anticipation of increased traffic. Traffic counts on I-30 through Texarkana are 85,000. Over the next 10-15 years counts are expected to triple which is crazy to me.

Since it'll probably be at least 20-25 years until the composite 69/369 corridor in TX is substantially complete, there's ample time for plans for dispersing traffic through the Texarkana area to gel.  The optimal plan, of course, would be a west/north bypass intersecting 369 SW of town and heading north past I-30 and then east to meet I-49 similar to previously explored plans.  But even if that doesn't come together, it would be a relatively simple matter to improve Loop 151 to Interstate standards and use that as a bypass (likely designated a x49 by that time) for traffic intended for either I-49 or EB I-30 to circumnavigate central Texarkana -- the I-30 access part of which would be utilized regardless of whether the west/north bypass were ever built; its main purpose would be to get to NB I-49.   

Bobby5280

Quote from: dariusbSince there are a lot of businesses in the SW portion of the city construction through there will be challenging. I wonder will that section be elevated?

TX DOT finished the I-369 route study for the junction between US-59 and the existing Texarkana loop:

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/texarkana/story/2018/oct/31/i-369-route-study-completed/750229/

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/get-involved/atl/us-59-queen-city/101118-route-study-report.pdf

The recommendation, based in part on public input, is to upgrade the existing US-59 corridor. East and West bypass options around existing US-59 were studied. Those options were rejected. If/when the I-369 upgrade along existing US-59 is built some of the freeway will be built at grade, which will require removal of a bunch of properties. The segment joining the existing loop will likely be elevated.

sparker

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 09, 2019, 11:37:46 AM
Quote from: dariusbSince there are a lot of businesses in the SW portion of the city construction through there will be challenging. I wonder will that section be elevated?

TX DOT finished the I-369 route study for the junction between US-59 and the existing Texarkana loop:

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/texarkana/story/2018/oct/31/i-369-route-study-completed/750229/

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/get-involved/atl/us-59-queen-city/101118-route-study-report.pdf

The recommendation, based in part on public input, is to upgrade the existing US-59 corridor. East and West bypass options around existing US-59 were studied. Those options were rejected. If/when the I-369 upgrade along existing US-59 is built some of the freeway will be built at grade, which will require removal of a bunch of properties. The segment joining the existing loop will likely be elevated.

Has the method of elevating I-369 been broached as of yet?  Obviously 2 options: continuous bridge or berm with periodic bridge breaks.  I wonder just what local opinion will favor -- either option will require major physical changes to the immediate area. 

Bobby5280

#256
The decision hasn't been made final yet. But the preliminary recommendation is to elevate I-369 for 1.5 miles over the top of existing US-59 from I-369/Loop-151 down to Rock School Road (CR-1325). The elevated bridge structure would end just South of Liberty-Eylau Elementary School. The existing US-59 road is an undivided 4-lane road with a center turn lane. The ROW is about 150' wide (measuring from the utility easements). That's enough room to build an elevated 4-lane freeway bridge. The only question really is the design of the bridge structure. Will it have bridge piers built in place of the existing center turn lane or have piers built to the outside of the existing highway? The design may end up a bit similar to how the Grand Parkway in the Houston area is being planned to squeeze through the town of Kemah.

The I-369 upgrade for the next 3.5 miles farther South along US-59 would be built at-grade, likely with frontage roads. I'm guessing TX DOT would clear the properties adjacent to existing US-59 on the West side of the road since there are fewer properties on that side. As US-59 reaches Wright Patman Lake Dam the road widens into a divided 4-lane highway with considerably more ROW. Interstate upgrades from there down to the new FM-3129 exit and farther South to Queen City should be fairly easy. The Queen City/Atlanta, TX area is another ball of wax.

The US-59 upgrade into I-369 going into the existing Texarkana loop will be more expensive and require removal of more properties (particularly where the road is built at grade and expands outward with frontage roads). But, as you can see in the route study report, there was actually far more opposition to the East Route and West Route new terrain options.

dariusb

Quote from: sparker on September 09, 2019, 10:45:35 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 09, 2019, 11:37:46 AM
Quote from: dariusbSince there are a lot of businesses in the SW portion of the city construction through there will be challenging. I wonder will that section be elevated?

TX DOT finished the I-369 route study for the junction between US-59 and the existing Texarkana loop:

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/texarkana/story/2018/oct/31/i-369-route-study-completed/750229/

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/get-involved/atl/us-59-queen-city/101118-route-study-report.pdf

The recommendation, based in part on public input, is to upgrade the existing US-59 corridor. East and West bypass options around existing US-59 were studied. Those options were rejected. If/when the I-369 upgrade along existing US-59 is built some of the freeway will be built at grade, which will require removal of a bunch of properties. The segment joining the existing loop will likely be elevated.

Has the method of elevating I-369 been broached as of yet?  Obviously 2 options: continuous bridge or berm with periodic bridge breaks.  I wonder just what local opinion will favor -- either option will require major physical changes to the immediate area. 
Do you think the elevated route would take longer to build than the at grade west side route or about the same amount of time?
It's a new day for a new beginning.

bugo

I followed US 59 from Texarkana to north of Houston in Google Maps, and there isn't a whole lot of US 59 that could be upgraded to interstate standards. Much of it is 4 or 5 lane undivided and there  is a lot of build up along the highway. There are a bunch of driveways that would have to be dealt with, necessitating long frontage roads and bridges over the highway. They could build the new highway right next to the current one but they would have to build 3 new carriageways for most of the way. There is a section a few miles south of Texarkana that has two carriageways that are separated, but there is only room for one carriageway in the middle, so if they upgraded the existing road they would have to build a carriageway in the middle and one next to one set of the sets of lanes.

sparker

^^^^^^^^^
A few years ago a proposed new-terrain I-69 alignment paralleling US 59 (and switching around between the east and west sides of the existing route) in the Nacogdoches area was published; since then it doesn't appear that any further news regarding this has been forthcoming.  IIRC, the north end of this particular proposal was in the vicinity of where the 69/369 interchange would be located.  If any posters have any updates on plans for that area, please enlighten us all, since progress north of the Cleveland area seems to be either stalled or on hold.   

O Tamandua

We've seen plans and discussion for I-369 around Marshall, Atlanta/Queen City and Texarkana.  Though Marion County will be one of if not the shortest of the Texas I-69 county segments, I wonder what kind of issues they'll have building it around Jefferson?

dariusb

Texarkana already has a pretty good freeway network for a city it's size but when 369 is fully built along with the northern loop it'll by far be the largest, most impressive freeway system in all of east Texas. I've heard for awhile that the reason for this is that when the inland port at TexAmericas Center and the Red River is made navigable from Shreveport up to east of Texarkana at Fulton, there will be a monstrous amount of traffic coming through there pretty much tripling the current traffic count of 88,000 to over 275,000! Could you imagine? That's nuts!
It's a new day for a new beginning.

roadman65

I heard a rumor that I-49 may be built to DeQueen next as part of the long gap between Texarkana and Fort Smith. I do not know how valid that rumor is, but if that gets started maybe this I-369 extension will as well.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

O Tamandua

Quote from: dariusb on September 25, 2019, 10:31:07 PM
Texarkana already has a pretty good freeway network for a city it's size but when 369 is fully built along with the northern loop it'll by far be the largest, most impressive freeway system in all of east Texas. I've heard for awhile that the reason for this is that when the inland port at TexAmericas Center and the Red River is made navigable from Shreveport up to east of Texarkana at Fulton, there will be a monstrous amount of traffic coming through there pretty much tripling the current traffic count of 88,000 to over 275,000! Could you imagine? That's nuts!

Wow.  And I thought the six-laning of I-30 was just because of the current traffic.  But you're right...Texarkana is going to become the gateway to Texas, with a vengeance.

Bobby5280

#264
Texarkana (and the state of Texas to some extent) is trying to position that region as a possible major distribution hub. A complete I-69/I-369 from Houston as well as a fully complete I-49 from Texarkana to Fort Smith might make that possible. Otherwise cities elsewhere in this region, such as Memphis or Oklahoma City, are going to be better positioned for that kind of business growth. Amazon just opened a giant fulfillment center in Oklahoma City near Will Rogers Airport. It dwarfs the huge FedEx facility that recently opened just up the road from it.

Regarding I-49 and DeQueen: that town is along the proposed path of I-49. There's no telling when I-49 will be extended North from Texarkana up to Ashdown and then DeQueen. Texas has to build that little leg of I-49 running through that corner of the state (and contribute to a Red River bridge crossing). Arkansas has other priorities with I-49. Completing the Bentonville Bypass up to the MO state line is the #1 priority by far. Then there's the big project from Alma to Barling in the Fort Smith area. After that AR DOT will probably build bypasses around towns along the route (like DeQueen). But it could be decades before I-49 is 100% complete between Texarkana and Fort Smith, especially as long as the federal government takes a back seat to this kind of highway development.

Greybear

Quote from: O Tamandua on September 25, 2019, 11:36:44 PM
Quote from: dariusb on September 25, 2019, 10:31:07 PM
Texarkana already has a pretty good freeway network for a city it's size but when 369 is fully built along with the northern loop it'll by far be the largest, most impressive freeway system in all of east Texas. I've heard for awhile that the reason for this is that when the inland port at TexAmericas Center and the Red River is made navigable from Shreveport up to east of Texarkana at Fulton, there will be a monstrous amount of traffic coming through there pretty much tripling the current traffic count of 88,000 to over 275,000! Could you imagine? That's nuts!

Wow.  And I thought the six-laning of I-30 was just because of the current traffic.  But you're right...Texarkana is going to become the gateway to Texas, with a vengeance.

It is rumored that TxDOT has long range plans to six-lane I-30 the entire length from the Hunt/Rockwall county line to Texarkana.

Anthony_JK

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 25, 2019, 11:56:35 PM
Texarkana (and the state of Texas to some extent) is trying to position that region is a possible major distribution hub. A complete I-69/I-369 from Houston as well as a fully complete I-49 from Texarkana to Fort Smith might make that possible. Otherwise cities elsewhere in this region, such as Memphis or Oklahoma City, are going to be better positioned for that kind of business growth. Amazon just opened a giant fulfillment center in Oklahoma City near Will Rogers Airport. It dwarfs the huge FedEx facility that recently opened just up the road from it.

Regarding I-49 and DeQueen: that town is along the proposed path of I-49. There's no telling when I-49 will be extended North from Texarkana up to Ashdown and then DeQueen. Texas has to build that little leg of I-49 running through that corner of the state (and contribute to a Red River bridge crossing). Arkansas has other priorities with I-49. Completing the Bentonville Bypass up to the MO state line is the #1 priority by far. Then there's the big project from Alma to Barling in the Fort Smith area. After that AR DOT will probably build bypasses around towns along the route (like DeQueen). But it could be decades before I-49 is 100% complete between Texarkana and Fort Smith, especially as long as the federal government takes a back seat to this kind of highway development.

Bella Vista Bypass, not Bentonville.

O Tamandua

When you look at it, it's interesting how significant of a hub Texarkana already is in the commercial bus transportation world (Greyhound and Jefferson Lines maps included here, if this is successful).  Moving humans is different than moving freight, but if they're not on rails (of which TXK also is the prime gateway to from most of the eastern US) they're on the highways, and ours aren't finished yet.:  :D



...and the southern terminus of this midwestern carrier:


Bobby5280

Quote from: GreybearIt is rumored that TxDOT has long range plans to six-lane I-30 the entire length from the Hunt/Rockwall county line to Texarkana.

6-laning I-30 to the AR state line would probably be a pretty good idea considering the continued growth of the DFW metroplex and possibility of other new regional freeways/toll roads connecting into I-30.

As for the forecast of I-369 attracting 275,000 AADT levels, that seems like a very tall order. I-95 in Springfield, VA approaching the Capital Beltway has a AADT level of 256,000 at its busiest point (according to a VA DOT PDF of Fairfax County AADT levels). I-95 is a monster size highway there. Nothing like that is being proposed in the Texarkana area.

Katy Freeway at its most busy point, just East of Beltway 8 is 387,144 vehicles per day. Even if Texarkana can turn into a major distribution hub I don't see traffic levels on I-369 reaching 2/3 of Katy Freeway's levels. I also doubt it will be the "largest, most impressive freeway system in all of East Texas." Katy Freeway clearly has that title currently. And Katy Freeway would only potentially be surpassed by the massive I-45 re-routing project around downtown Houston.

QuoteBella Vista Bypass, not Bentonville.

They should have called it the Walmart Bypass.
:)

dariusb

Quote from: O Tamandua on September 26, 2019, 03:18:22 PM
When you look at it, it's interesting how significant of a hub Texarkana already is in the commercial bus transportation world (Greyhound and Jefferson Lines maps included here, if this is successful).  Moving humans is different than moving freight, but if they're not on rails (of which TXK also is the prime gateway to from most of the eastern US) they're on the highways, and ours aren't finished yet.:  :D



...and the southern terminus of this midwestern carrier:


In 2020 plans are supposed to move forward to build a new $13 million dollar passenger terminal in hopes of attracting other airlines.
It's a new day for a new beginning.

dariusb

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 27, 2019, 12:48:48 AM
Quote from: GreybearIt is rumored that TxDOT has long range plans to six-lane I-30 the entire length from the Hunt/Rockwall county line to Texarkana.

6-laning I-30 to the AR state line would probably be a pretty good idea considering the continued growth of the DFW metroplex and possibility of other new regional freeways/toll roads connecting into I-30.

As for the forecast of I-369 attracting 275,000 AADT levels, that seems like a very tall order. I-95 in Springfield, VA approaching the Capital Beltway has a AADT level of 256,000 at its busiest point (according to a VA DOT PDF of Fairfax County AADT levels). I-95 is a monster size highway there. Nothing like that is being proposed in the Texarkana area.

Katy Freeway at its most busy point, just East of Beltway 8 is 387,144 vehicles per day. Even if Texarkana can turn into a major distribution hub I don't see traffic levels on I-369 reaching 2/3 of Katy Freeway's levels. I also doubt it will be the "largest, most impressive freeway system in all of East Texas." Katy Freeway clearly has that title currently. And Katy Freeway would only potentially be surpassed by the massive I-45 re-routing project around downtown Houston.

QuoteBella Vista Bypass, not Bentonville.

They should have called it the Walmart Bypass.
:)
I agree those Texarkana traffic projections are a bit much but I'm glad that they're at least thinking ahead. Now if they follow through with making the highway expansions/improvements is another story altogether. As for Texarkana's current highway/freeway system, I can't think of any east Texas City that matches it unless you add Beaumont which I don't count since it's in the southeast.
It's a new day for a new beginning.

Bobby5280

Houston is an East Texas city. There's not actually any real Southeast part of Texas. The actual South part of Texas is down in Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen and the rest of that huge cluster of small cities that make up the Rio Grande Valley. Both Texarkana and Houston are East Texas cities. Any "Southeast" portion would be a point down in the Gulf of Mexico.

The way I-369 is shaping up going into Texarkana will probably be no more than a divided 4-lane configuration. 2 lanes in each direction. Look at the configuration of the completed freeway exit of US-59 at FM-3129 a few miles East of Wright Patman Lake on the Southern outskirts of Texarkana. The thru lanes of US-59 are in a narrow 2-2 configuration, separated by a concrete Jersey barrier. I strongly doubt that existing exit will be modified when I-369 is routed thru that spot. Chances are good I-369 will be built through that area as a narrow OK Turnpike style 2-2 road with only a Jersey barrier separating the traffic movements. It's not going to be built to hold a quarter million vehicles per day levels of traffic.

sparker

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 28, 2019, 02:08:59 AM
Houston is an East Texas city. There's not actually any real Southeast part of Texas. The actual South part of Texas is down in Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen and the rest of that huge cluster of small cities that make up the Rio Grande Valley. Both Texarkana and Houston are East Texas cities. Any "Southeast" portion would be a point down in the Gulf of Mexico.

The way I-369 is shaping up going into Texarkana will probably be no more than a divided 4-lane configuration. 2 lanes in each direction. Look at the configuration of the completed freeway exit of US-59 at FM-3129 a few miles East of Wright Patman Lake on the Southern outskirts of Texarkana. The thru lanes of US-59 are in a narrow 2-2 configuration, separated by a concrete Jersey barrier. I strongly doubt that existing exit will be modified when I-369 is routed thru that spot. Chances are good I-369 will be built through that area as a narrow OK Turnpike style 2-2 road with only a Jersey barrier separating the traffic movements. It's not going to be built to hold a quarter million vehicles per day levels of traffic.

Initially, that's probably an accurate forecast; due to both the NIMBY factor and the concurrent desire to preserve roadside commerce as much as possible, either the format described here or some sort of elevated (berm, bridge) but narrow facility is likely to be the one deployed.  But down the line, if the principal raison d'etre of the I-369 corridor -- a conduit between Houston and I-30 -- fully plays out, traffic, particularly if dominated by large commercial vehicles, may eventually overwhelm a minimalist facility such as described.  But by that time the concept of a west/north Texarkana bypass, likely connecting directly to I-49 north of town, might be a viable renewed prospect that if built would serve to divert a portion of the traffic away from the US 59-based route.  For the sake of simple economics as well as local realities, doing a "bare bones" freeway for I-369 in the short term is probably the best choice; that allows sufficient time for outer "ring" or "arc" plans to gel without rushing development of a suboptimal freeway.  And if the original route displays congestion affecting both local and long-distance travel, that situation may well prompt more serious consideration of those longer-term alternatives.   

wtd67

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 28, 2019, 02:08:59 AM
Houston is an East Texas city. There's not actually any real Southeast part of Texas. The actual South part of Texas is down in Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen and the rest of that huge cluster of small cities that make up the Rio Grande Valley. Both Texarkana and Houston are East Texas cities. Any "Southeast" portion would be a point down in the Gulf of Mexico.

Maybe on the map it is east Texas, but Texans do not consider Houston as East Texas.  If East Texas were a state, Tyler would be the capital.  As you go further southeast from Tyler, Lufkin and Nacogdoches to the Louisiana border are considered Deep East Texas.  I don't know what Houston is considered, but I would think Southeast would be correct.  The area where Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen is called The Valley to Texans.

wdcrft63

Quote from: wtd67 on September 28, 2019, 05:18:01 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 28, 2019, 02:08:59 AM
Houston is an East Texas city. There's not actually any real Southeast part of Texas. The actual South part of Texas is down in Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen and the rest of that huge cluster of small cities that make up the Rio Grande Valley. Both Texarkana and Houston are East Texas cities. Any "Southeast" portion would be a point down in the Gulf of Mexico.

Maybe on the map it is east Texas, but Texans do not consider Houston as East Texas.  If East Texas were a state, Tyler would be the capital.  As you go further southeast from Tyler, Lufkin and Nacogdoches to the Louisiana border are considered Deep East Texas.  I don't know what Houston is considered, but I would think Southeast would be correct.  The area where Brownsville, Harlingen, McAllen is called The Valley to Texans.
FWIW: https://rvtexasyall.com/texas-regions



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