DST (2018)

[webny99]

Why in the world are we discussing defecation in a thread about DST?

After 35 pages of largely unproductive discussion, the two concepts are now inherently related 

That said, the thing I hate the most is when I just get out of the shower, and then I get the urge.

Oh, man. I'm with you. I assume the only thing worse is getting out of the shower on November 5th, setting your clock forward an hour, and then getting the urge 

[slorydn1]

Wow, I see this thread has gone right down the shi- oops, i mean toilet.

[tradephoric]

When DST was extended in 2005, the US Department of Energy reported to Congress that there was 1.3 Tera Watt-hour of energy savings (or 0.5% per each day of Extended Daylight Saving Time).  It also mentioned the following regarding regional impacts of extended DST:

...southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.

A few points.  First, daylight savings opponents often cite that the extension of daylight saving time in 2005 only reduced the county's total electricity use by 0.03 percent.  But that is averaging the extended DST electricity savings over the entire year, and not looking at the 0.5% daily savings for each day of extended DST.  Point being, 0.5% daily energy savings is significant but opponents want to downplay it by averaging it for the entire year.  It's like starting a diet in November and losing 24 lbs by the end of the year.  That person "ONLY"  averaged a loss of 2 lbs per month... big deal right? 

Secondly, while Daylight Saving Time reduces demand for residential lighting, it often increases demand for air conditioning in the summer.  But this isn't the case in the winter.   In the winter, the reduced demand for residential lighting isn't offset by the increased air-condition usage (ie. people in Florida or Georgia don't require 24/7 cooling in December like they do in July).  So, while the Department of Energy found 0.5% of energy savings for each day that Daylight Saving Time was extended back in 2005, these daily savings would potentially be much higher if they are looking at the energy savings for the entire winter (ie. if the nation went to year-round DST).

[Rothman]

Anyone mention the problem of after-school activites and sports if you shift the school start time?

[kalvado]

When DST was extended in 2005, the US Department of Energy reported to Congress that there was 1.3 Tera Watt-hour of energy savings (or 0.5% per each day of Extended Daylight Saving Time).  It also mentioned the following regarding regional impacts of extended DST:

...southern portions of the United States exhibited slightly smaller impacts of Extended Daylight Saving Time on energy savings compared to the northern regions, a result possibly due to a small, offsetting increase in household air conditioning usage.

A few points.  First, daylight savings opponents often cite that the extension of daylight saving time in 2005 only reduced the county's total electricity use by 0.03 percent.  But that is averaging the extended DST electricity savings over the entire year, and not looking at the 0.5% daily savings for each day of extended DST.  Point being, 0.5% daily energy savings is significant but opponents want to downplay it by averaging it for the entire year.  It's like starting a diet in November and losing 24 lbs by the end of the year.  That person "ONLY"  averaged a loss of 2 lbs per month... big deal right? 

Secondly, while Daylight Saving Time reduces demand for residential lighting, it often increases demand for air conditioning in the summer.  But this isn't the case in the winter.   In the winter, the reduced demand for residential lighting isn't offset by the increased air-condition usage (ie. people in Florida or Georgia don't require 24/7 cooling in December like they do in July).  So, while the Department of Energy found 0.5% of energy savings for each day that Daylight Saving Time was extended back in 2005, these daily savings would potentially be much higher if they are looking at the energy savings for the entire winter (ie. if the nation went to year-round DST).

0.5% value really needs a error bar attached to it. And I would be very surprised if that is a statistically significant difference.

[kphoger]

Anyone mention the problem of after-school activites and sports if you shift the school start time?

I refuse to take after-school activities into account in principal.  School should be about school, and extracurricular activities can just tag along for the ride as it works out.  If a currently after-school activity needs to be shifted to a before-school activity in order to more effectively use daylight, then so be it.  We've already reached the point that it's no big deal for athletes to miss multiple days of school in a month in order to compete in weekday out-of-town competitions; if current school day hours are detrimental to students' ability to concentrate, then after-school activities be damned.  In my opinion, of course.

Other research has suggested that high school students should start school as late as 11AM.  Maybe 11AM is extreme, but pushing all school start times later by an hour if the nation adopts permanent daylight savings time, that doesn't sound too extreme.

let's look at how my day would have gone if school did start at 11:00.  Forget school lunch; it's now school supper, served probably around 16:00.  The end of the school day wouldn't be until 19:00, which is the start of my "late evening".  Transportation to school in the morning would be an issue, forcing me to take the bus until I learned to drive, and besides, when you've got something to do starting in the morning, the hours prior to that are relegated to getting ready for the day, sitting around the house, etc., leaving five to six hours of time in the morning to be completely wasted, and at night there's no time to get anything done either because it's already late-thirty by the time the bus drops me back off at home.

In short, bad idea; my high school's 07:25-14:56 hours were just fine.  Middle school (07:25-14:46) was even sweeter; I loved being able to get out of there and back into my own house before 15:00 (the transition from early to late afternoon)!

The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules–morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

[mrsman]

The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules–morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

[MikeTheActuary]

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

I understand that at one point, in one Denver suburb, they handled school crowding by dividing each grade into thirds.  One third would start in September; another third in January; and another third in May.  (Not positive about the start months...)

In so doing, they boosted the capacity of each school by 50%.

[Scott5114]

The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules–morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

You do still need twice as many teachers, though (unless you really want them to work five 12-hour shifts a week, which is inhumane, especially for the salaries a teacher commands), so you're only really saving on facility expenses. Payroll and supplies like books, etc. are probably bigger chunks of a school's budget than construction and upkeep of physical buildings.

[kkt]

It has significant disadvantages for the kids, though.  Seattle Schools did that for a while during the baby boom.  Both shifts are bad times, some way too early and some way too late.  Things like clubs and sports teams have trouble getting practice times and game times that work for a reasonable number of people.  It's harder to get to know your classmates.  It's an expedient but hopefully a short-lived one.

[kphoger]

Things like clubs and sports teams have trouble getting practice times and game times that work for a reasonable number of people. 

My opinion on this matter was stated in the post that started this sub-topic.   ↓ ↓ ↓

It also happens to not be an issue in Mexico, as sports there are community clubs, not school clubs.

I refuse to take after-school activities into account in principal.  School should be about school, and extracurricular activities can just tag along for the ride as it works out.  If a currently after-school activity needs to be shifted to a before-school activity in order to more effectively use daylight, then so be it.  We've already reached the point that it's no big deal for athletes to miss multiple days of school in a month in order to compete in weekday out-of-town competitions; if current school day hours are detrimental to students' ability to concentrate, then after-school activities be damned.  In my opinion, of course.

[jeffandnicole]

The town in Mexico that my family regularly goes to has two sets of school hours.  Well, actually they vary slightly from school to school, but there are two main schedules–morning school and evening school.  Half the students in town go to school from (and these are approximate times) 8 AM to 1:30 PM, while the other half go from 2:30 PM to 8 PM.  Somehow, those evening class students manage to get their homework done, same as the morning class students.

What a smart way to saving money on school construction.  Because only 1/2 the kids are in school at any one time, Mexico only needs to support 1/2 of the schools as otherwise.

Here when there is school crowding, they just fit more kids in the classroom and put trailers in the playground as classrooms.  Some year-round schools are able to get maybe an additional 33% or 50% students, but Mexico can double the capacity of students.

The high school in my town had split-sessions like that...back in the 1960's!  They finally built a middle school (in the late '60s) to reduce it.

While you could 'save' on school costs, it's not an ideal situation.  Younger grade classes have greatly different needs than older grade classes. You can't utilize all the space in the room for one subject or one grade.   Some rooms, like science labs, would be completely unusable and unsafe for younger kids.  In today's age, having classes from 1 - 8 (or whatever) means you need someone to watch the kid while both parents work in the morning, or send them to a day-care, which means they're out of the house for 12 hours or more.

As far as it 'not being an issue in Mexico', is that fact, or is that just seeing that they do it and figuring that it's not an issue.  Because if that's not an issue, then there's a whole lot of crime, drugs and suspect activity in Mexico that occurs normally that must not be an issue either.

[kphoger]

As far as it 'not being an issue in Mexico', is that fact, or is that just seeing that they do it and figuring that it's not an issue.  Because if that's not an issue, then there's a whole lot of crime, drugs and suspect activity in Mexico that occurs normally that must not be an issue either.

Let me clarify.  Class times conflicting with school sports schedules is not an issue in Mexico, because schools in Mexico generally do not have sports teams.  I'm not saying Mexican kids don't play sports, just that they don't play school sports.

[vdeane]

Yeah, school sports teams are a largely US phenomenon.

[ghYHZ]

It's almost the summer solstice.... with a hint of light in the east at 3:35 this morning. I was out on deck in the middle of the Cabot Strait.....taking the overnight ferry to Newfoundland. We were at the far eastern end of the Atlantic Time Zone.....just crossing into Newfoundland Time where it became 4:05 am (Newfoundland has one of those half-hour zones) Latitude was 47deg N.....about the same as Quebec City, Duluth, Fargo and Tacoma.   

[jakeroot]

It's almost the summer solstice.... with a hint of light in the east at 3:35 this morning. I was out on deck in the middle of the Cabot Strait.....taking the overnight ferry to Newfoundland. We were at the far eastern end of the Atlantic Time Zone.....just crossing into Newfoundland Time where it became 4:05 am (Newfoundland has one of those half-hour zones) Latitude was 47deg N.....about the same as Quebec City, Duluth, Fargo and Tacoma.

Your experience (minus the ferry) does indeed reflect what I'm seeing in Tacoma. Most of the night is now astronomical twilight, though there's still a couple hours of total darkness just past midnight. Great for my job driving Lyft!

[tradephoric]

As we approach the summer solstice, the sunset times along the east coast is around 8:30 PM.  Here are the current sunset times for major cities along the east coast:

8:14 PM — Miami, FL
8:29 PM - Jacksonville, FL
8:29 PM — Charleston, SC
8:27 PM — Myrtle Beach, SC
8:25 PM — Wilmington, NC
8:24 PM — Virginia Beach, VA
8:35 PM — Washington, DC
8:34 PM — Baltimore, MD
8:29 PM — Dover, DE
8:26 PM — Atlantic City, NJ
8:31 PM — Philadelphia, PA
8:28 PM — New York City
8:27 PM — Bridgeport, CT
8:22 PM — Boston, MA
8:24 PM — Portland, ME

According to the US Census Bureau, 41 million people live in Atlantic coastline counties.  Without DST, millions of Americans would see sunsets at 7:30 PM as opposed to 8:30 PM.  Do 41 million people really want hour earlier sunsets during the summer?  People on the east coast would barely have time to wash their car after work before it's dark out... let alone do any other outdoor task they may need to do after work.

[hotdogPi]

As we approach the summer solstice, the sunset times along the east coast is around 8:30 PM.  Here are the current sunset times for major cities along the east coast:

8:14 PM — Miami, FL
8:29 PM - Jacksonville, FL
8:29 PM — Charleston, SC
8:27 PM — Myrtle Beach, SC
8:25 PM — Wilmington, NC
8:24 PM — Virginia Beach, VA
8:35 PM — Washington, DC
8:34 PM — Baltimore, MD
8:29 PM — Dover, DE
8:26 PM — Atlantic City, NJ
8:31 PM — Philadelphia, PA
8:28 PM — New York City
8:27 PM — Bridgeport, CT
8:22 PM — Boston, MA
8:24 PM — Portland, ME

According to the US Census Bureau, 41 million people live in Atlantic coastline counties.  Without DST, millions of Americans would see sunsets at 7:30 PM as opposed to 8:30 PM.  Do 41 million people really want hour earlier sunsets during the summer?  People on the east coast would barely have time to wash their car after work before it's dark out... let alone do any other outdoor task they may need to do after work.

People are generally saying one of two things:

1. Keep it the way it is.
2. Permanent DST.

Neither involves moving the summer to Standard Time.

Side note: I never realized that the diagonal slant of the East Coast was exactly the right amount so that the sun would set at almost exactly the same time on the solstice for most places on the coast. (It's closer than it looks; the ones that say 8:3x are slightly inland.)

[webny99]

People are generally saying one of two things:
1. Keep it the way it is.
2. Permanent DST.
Neither involves moving the summer to Standard Time.

IIRC, 20160805, kphoger, and possibly Rothman have advocated abolishing DST altogether. A number of others have expressed support for DST with the pre-2007 time frame (first Sunday in April to last Sunday in October).

However, you are correct that most people have supported one of the two positions above. I didn't really have an opinion at the beginning of the thread, but now I'm decidedly in favor of (1), despite tradephoric's efforts. 

Side note: I never realized that the diagonal slant of the East Coast was exactly the right amount so that the sun would set at almost exactly the same time on the solstice for most places on the coast.

Interesting!

[tradephoric]

However, you are correct that most people have supported one of the two positions above. I didn't really have an opinion at the beginning of the thread, but now I'm decidedly in favor of (1), despite tradephoric's efforts. 

Hey that's an improvement!  If you've gone from having no opinion at the beginning of the thread to wanting to keep things the way they are, then you see the folly of abolishing DST entirely.  I would be in favor of (1) too if the only two options were these:

1.  Keep it the way it is.
2.  Abolish DST.

I think when someone say they want to eliminate DST, a lot of the times they really mean they want to eliminate the biannual time changes.  There are some people who legitimately want to end DST because they want earlier sunrises, but the vast majority just want to end the antiquated routine of changing their clocks back and forth.  While eliminating DST would do that, year-round DST would also do that (and maybe they just haven't considered that as an option).

[MNHighwayMan]

All I'm in favor of is abolishing the clock changes. I don't care one way or the other whether the final choice is permanent Standard Time or permanent Daylight Time, or even something more unusual like a permanent half-hour shift. Whichever the people like more, I guess.

Just no more twice-annual clock changes.

Please.

[english si]

Singapore has sunset on the solstice at 19:12 (summer) or 19:04 (winter where the days are 9 minutes shorter) and it does fluctuate around the rest of the year within a roughly half-hour window - they never get the luxury of sunsets as late as 7.30 that tradephoric seems to think is not even making the bare minimum for evening light in summer. Sunrise is similarly at around 7 (ie year-round DST). Their 'problem' is latitude, not the clock, as is Prudhoe Bay's and it's the same for the places in between (Charlotte, NC is about halfway between the two latitudes).

I had my last bit of night proper 3 weeks ago and don't get it back for some time. I've had post-9pm sunsets and pre-5am sunrises for 19 days, and have 30 days left to go on that front. Civil twilight is (and will be until the end of the month) from before 4 until after 10. It's pretty meh - if anything, the sun sets too late and saving daylight is unwarranted (in April or September, it's a different story). The 'problem' is not the number on the clock, but the latitude I live at. And it's only a 'problem' for routine - social timetabling strangely operates as if there's no difference between winter and summer, and so the timings are all the same (with a few exceptions) - but our routine naturally wants to change: less sleep and more activity in summer, more sleep and less activity in winter.

[MNHighwayMan]

The 'problem' is not the number on the clock, but the latitude I live at.

This makes me wonder if we shouldn't have two sets of time zones per strip of longitude: one for the southern half of the hemisphere, and one for the northern half. One thing that hasn't been discussed at all is whether the concept of having a time zone take up an entire longitude, from pole to pole, is really the best way to divide the land into time zones.

[MikeTheActuary]

The 'problem' is not the number on the clock, but the latitude I live at.

This makes me wonder if we shouldn't have two sets of time zones per strip of longitude: one for the southern half of the hemisphere, and one for the northern half. One thing that hasn't been discussed at all is whether the concept of having a time zone take up an entire longitude, from pole to pole, is really the best way to divide the land into time zones.

Nah.  'The problem' is that people have expectations of where the sun should be based on having personal schedules that are fixed to specific numbers on the clock.

That problem could be fixed if people revised their schedules, rather than seeking to revise their clocks.

[kalvado]

The 'problem' is not the number on the clock, but the latitude I live at.

This makes me wonder if we shouldn't have two sets of time zones per strip of longitude: one for the southern half of the hemisphere, and one for the northern half. One thing that hasn't been discussed at all is whether the concept of having a time zone take up an entire longitude, from pole to pole, is really the best way to divide the land into time zones.

My family happens to live on the other side of the earth - and a few adjustments of daylight procedures in both locations made me loose track of what is the time difference between us. It is really messy when someone says "I'll call you after work" - and you know they get home around 6, but you need to google the current time difference..
Now bringing that to many American families would be priceless (as in I am not sure if you would be able to pay the price for that)
making timezone borders more SW to NE instead of north0south may be more like it.. If only that was done 200 years ago...