I've kind of noticed that the Massachusetts Turnpike and other roads in MA are somewhat lacking in signage pointing traffic to Vermont or Brattleboro. Even where it meets I-91, there is still almost no signage indicated that the route goes into Vermont or any of its control cities. If Albany (https://goo.gl/maps/bdyWQtqWNEoUU94e9) can be a signed destination, then why can't a whole state be one?
Places where there is no mention of Vermont:
Route 10/US 5 (https://goo.gl/maps/ApCTTqVg6qqQgoTy6) (less than 25 miles from the border!)
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/LU5DStfXYk83BqMS9)
US-20 and US-7 (https://goo.gl/maps/9cprM6FtFFzcyPz97) (Signs for Williamstown, which is close to the border)
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/hMnURhEEwH9LAF4L8)
MA-43 and US 7 (https://goo.gl/maps/bNjtNgxxx52A55PU8) (Same deal as US-20 and US-7)
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/AZ9nqL21uBPTAtE59)
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/Q45S17ZtwmpknxHp9)
The only examples I could find (https://goo.gl/maps/xDD2hMD3UFu5M8kw6) were minor surface roads very close to the border and a few places on the MA 2 surface-road-turned-freeway (https://goo.gl/maps/L98XJVPenEqbKjKq8).
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.
Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.
Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.
Maybe cause VT has no large cities noteworthy of bring signed.
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2023, 11:20:13 PM
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Well, duh, not on the
entire route, but at least signing it where it meets up with I-91 would make more sense.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 19, 2023, 11:29:06 PM
Maybe cause VT has no large cities noteworthy of bring signed.
It could be argued that Burlington could be signed, but I'd much rather the signs just say Vermont as their control since it dosen't have individual noteworthy cities like you said. Then again, you don't see full state names by themselves on guide signs like that, at least in this region.
New Jersey is used by NYCDOT and NYSDOT often.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 20, 2023, 03:13:55 AM
New Jersey is used by NYCDOT and NYSDOT often.
I was referring to more of the Massachusetts/Vermont region further north, but yes, you're correct.
Well at one time Massachusetts was the SB control city from VT 9 for I-91 in Brattleboro. True Vermont is hardly used while New York will use the nearest border community in Vermont as a destination on roads leading out of state.
Williamson is a major destination for the Berkshires, as the home of Williams College. Makes sense to sign it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6703569,-72.5393936,3a,43.3y,291.41h,83.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUMFItzkTVIf4GoftCiWX-A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUMFItzkTVIf4GoftCiWX-A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D80.2653%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Actually didn't know that WRJ was signed in Massachusetts!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4826846,-72.6132135,3a,31.6y,316.24h,90.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sY8KDIdEoTT7knwWblAjruQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DY8KDIdEoTT7knwWblAjruQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D34.956673%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Seems like Brattleboro is well signed on I-91 even south of Greenfield. Holyoke makes sense as a control city as there isn't much in the way of people in Vermont. Only thing that I have a problem with is Northfield. Yikes.
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2023, 11:20:13 PM
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.
Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.
Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.
Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 20, 2023, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2023, 11:20:13 PM
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.
Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.
Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.
Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.
*reaches for his revolver*
Brattleboro is used on I-91 NB mileage signs about a mile after crossing the CT border
https://goo.gl/maps/Ct33Rqh27pNgXBRV6
So is I-91 the only route in MA that signs sufficiently for Vermont/Brattleboro (besides where it meets I-90)? Why is it not signed in the Route 10/US-5 (https://goo.gl/maps/T6X3kGJNB6wn4cKr8) example but it is signed all the way near the CT border? I find it odd that Brattleboro is signed at the fork after the MA-2 onramp and not before on US-5.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 20, 2023, 05:30:33 PM
So is I-91 the only route in MA that signs sufficiently for Vermont/Brattleboro (besides where it meets I-90)? Why is it not signed in the Route 10/US-5 (https://goo.gl/maps/T6X3kGJNB6wn4cKr8) example but it is signed all the way near the CT border? I find it odd that Brattleboro is signed at the fork after the MA-2 onramp and not before on US-5.
I'm starting to think that that one sign you found is a one off thing.
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2023, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 20, 2023, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2023, 11:20:13 PM
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.
Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.
Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.
Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.
*reaches for his revolver*
And then again, you could always aim for bigger fish and skip Vermont altogether https://goo.gl/maps/6rRkYwHHLxVsVvYw5
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on February 20, 2023, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2023, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 20, 2023, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2023, 11:20:13 PM
Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.
Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.
Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.
Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.
Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.
*reaches for his revolver*
And then again, you could always aim for bigger fish and skip Vermont altogether https://goo.gl/maps/6rRkYwHHLxVsVvYw5
That's cool but
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Williamstown,+MA/Montreal,+QC,+Canada/@42.7950877,-74.3846039,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e0b111fa562f95:0x444616296f5399df!2m2!1d-73.2036898!2d42.7120196!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cc91a541c64b70d:0x654e3138211fefef!2m2!1d-73.5673919!2d45.5018869!3e0
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, Lee, Shelburne Falls, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Also, most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (specifically I-93 to I-89).
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
I mean, I think I'm correct to assume that a good chunk of traffic on the MA Turnpike is long-distance traffic, going to Boston, Albany, maybe NYC, and, well, Vermont. It
is I-90 after all.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 20, 2023, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
Exactly. This is why this signing scheme confuses me. And honestly, if they're going to sign Montreal, Canada of all places, they might as well use Burlington instead of Pownal. Or maybe they just wanted to put a Canada (Quebec) sign somewhere for good measure.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 20, 2023, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 20, 2023, 09:48:55 PM
I mean, I think I'm correct to assume that a good chunk of traffic on the MA Turnpike is long-distance traffic, going to Boston, Albany, maybe NYC, and, well, Vermont. It is I-90 after all.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 20, 2023, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
Exactly. This is why this signing scheme confuses me. And honestly, if they're going to sign Montreal, Canada of all places, they might as well use Burlington instead of Pownal. Or maybe they just wanted to put a Canada (Quebec) sign somewhere for good measure.
I agree that Bennington should be signed in Williamstown (no offense to Pownal). It makes me wonder if the MassDOT regional district office has a specific grudge against Vermont.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 20, 2023, 11:47:43 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 20, 2023, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.
The horror.
Hey I lived in NJ where rarely our towns got a mention outside our state. Even Trenton on I-95 got axed for New York. So this is spilled milk worrying about Vermont being ignored In Massachusetts.
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2023, 06:59:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 20, 2023, 11:47:43 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 20, 2023, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 20, 2023, 08:55:49 PM
The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).
Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.
The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.
The horror.
The whole point of control cities is to be useful to motorists. Signing the slower route to get to a place defeats their whole purpose. And Vermont actually poorly signs Montreal as well, so the signs kinda useless except as a fun novelty.
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12. As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split. Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield. At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB).
Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired. There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction. Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5). I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4. I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
Quote from: shadyjay on February 21, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12. As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split. Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield. At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB).
Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired. There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction. Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5). I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4. I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: shadyjay on February 21, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12. As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split. Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield. At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB).
Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired. There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction. Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5). I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4. I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.
I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 21, 2023, 05:10:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: shadyjay on February 21, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12. As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split. Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield. At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB).
Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired. There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction. Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5). I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4. I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.
I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.
I doubt anyone takes MA-10 from there to Northampton, though. Probably still faster to take the Pike to I-91 to MA-9.
Then again, not sure what else is supposed to go on the sign.
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2023, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 21, 2023, 05:10:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.
I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.
I doubt anyone takes MA-10 from there to Northampton, though. Probably still faster to take the Pike to I-91 to MA-9.
Then again, not sure what else is supposed to go on the sign.
If coming from the west, taking MA 10 is faster if your destination is anywhere along 10 or along MA 66. Or if there's a snafu on 91 in Northampton, which has been a regular occurrence this past year due to a bridge replacement project near Exit 23 (and will probably continue through this year).
... and through the next decade for sure. I swear that section from Mt Tom to Northampton has been under construction since the 1990s in some way/shape/form. Starting in the early/mid 90s, it was the ramp from 91SB to 5SB in northern portion of Northampton. Then for like 5 years, it was several bridge decks out by the Oxbow (that are even worse now). Then it was the bridges from the Route 9 exit, north out along Damon Rd to the onramp. Then it was the bottom of the Route 9 exit itself (rotary). Now its the Rt 5/Conn River Line bridge. At least they're maintaining 2 lanes during the work. I just wonder if MassDOT will ever widen from Holyoke up to Route 9... it sure could use it, as a lot of traffic exits there, heading to Amherst.
What is interesting about the I-91 onramps from the I-90/US 5 connector is that most locations to the north of that point utilize two control cities on the onramp signage, while this one uses only one per direction. I'd like to see "Springfield/Hartford CT" and "Northampton/Greenfield" or "Northampton/Brattleboro VT". Before the I-91/US 5 split, I'd sign US 5 for Holyoke and West Springfield.
I-91's control city when approaching US 5/Exit 10 is "Holyoke" which just seems so wrong, especially since a good portion of the way is 4-lanes/divided.
I can't recall exactly, but I think a few decades ago, Northampton was a control city for I-91 North from the Mass. Pike/US-5 interchange in addition to Holyoke. In any event, NoHo is large enough to be one, and so is Brattleboro. It again makes me wonder if local/regional politics have a role to play.....this is Massachusetts after all.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 22, 2023, 07:48:43 AM
I can't recall exactly, but I think a few decades ago, Northampton was a control city for I-91 North from the Mass. Pike/US-5 interchange in addition to Holyoke. In any event, NoHo is large enough to be one, and so is Brattleboro. It again makes me wonder if local/regional politics have a role to play.....this is Massachusetts after all.
My bet is the designing engineer just picked a place.
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
If all roads lead to Rome, then the same must be true for Tokyo.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
We did have one a few years ago, Miami on I-95 S/B at the I-85 split outside Richmond. Glad I got to see that one before it was replaced.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 25, 2023, 09:19:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
We did have one a few years ago, Miami on I-95 S/B at the I-85 split outside Richmond. Glad I got to see that one before it was replaced.
No, if I were in Richmond and wanted to drive to Miami, I would take I-95. That's not the same as putting Tokyo on I-94 eastbound.
Even the previous example of putting Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown, MA isn't horrible, just given what a map looks like (e.g., MA 2 squiggling towards Troy). So, I can see how that got put there, despite Google Maps finding that heading over to I-87 would be faster. Again, our country is littered with control cities used in cases where the route would not be the fastest, so no biggie (e.g., Northampton being used at I-90/US 202/MA 10 when Google says I-90 to I-91 is faster).
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
I was joking with that comment.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 11:58:39 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
I was joking with that comment.
Oh.
Ha. Hahaha. Ha. Ha.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
There's a Tokio, North Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokio,_North_Dakota). One letter off. :spin:
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 26, 2023, 03:32:48 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter. There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
There's a Tokio, North Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokio,_North_Dakota). One letter off. :spin:
Eh, that works.
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hamoshire city as a control.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
I was referring specifically to I-91. It makes sense that 89 and 93 would sign Concord and Littleton, respectively, since those highways go through those places.
As for VT/NH, VT would make more sense than NH, since there are other more highly traveled direct routes into the major cities of NH. Speaking of which, the NH-Maine references in eastern Mass. have been replaced by specific cities (i.e. Portsmouth, NH) with a few exceptions.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Trusting a guy named "Shadyjay" seems like a fragile proposition.
Quote from: Rothman on September 16, 2023, 04:21:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Trusting a guy named "Shadyjay" seems like a fragile proposition.
What, do we not recall the 'shadyjay.com' empire?
Here's my 2004 I-91 exit listings, complete with NH referenced several times on I-91 signage.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050225215615/http://www.shadyjay.com/NET/listings/interstate/i-91.htm
Quote from: Rothman on September 16, 2023, 04:21:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Trusting a guy named "Shadyjay" seems like a fragile proposition.
Dude, he's better known than you are.
Quote from: Alps on September 16, 2023, 09:42:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 16, 2023, 04:21:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Trusting a guy named "Shadyjay" seems like a fragile proposition.
Dude, he's better known than you are.
I don't doubt it. Shady people tend to be. I mean, just look at Eminem.
Quote from: Rothman on September 16, 2023, 10:13:29 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 16, 2023, 09:42:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 16, 2023, 04:21:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
Trusting a guy named "Shadyjay" seems like a fragile proposition.
Dude, he's better known than you are.
I don't doubt it. Shady people tend to be. I mean, just look at Eminem.
Please stand up.
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada
WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.
I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....
It already is, at the exit in question (https://maps.app.goo.gl/3MYika2Ashw5zNdD7)...
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 16, 2023, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.
Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.
A thought just occured to me...
Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"? I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign. "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.
Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.
What do you mean? Shadyjay just mentioned SEVERAL examples of VTrans using a NH city on I-91 guide signage.
I would differentiate exit signage from control city signage here. The ambiguity is my fault. I don't think there's an instance of an NH city being used as a control city. My understanding is that the I-91 control cities in VT are Brattleboro, WRJ, St. Johnsbury, and Newport.
Took a drive today to hit up some more rail-trail mileage in the Keene area. Heading up MA 12, just coming into Winchendon MA, a "pull-thru" paddle sign caught my eye. It said "12 NORTH / Keene NH / Bellows Falls VT". So there ya go, MA signed VT on a 2-lane road when VT is 2 states away! I didn't get a picture (wasn't expecting it) and don't see it on StreetView as that dates back to 2019 when most of the "paddles" didn't have a traditional route marker (just the number). The one I saw today looked relatively new.