Why take down all the I-540 signs immediately, AHTD?

[bugo]

Why didn't you leave the 540 signs up like you used to do when renumbering the highway?  What is the benefit of removing the US 71 shield near Bentonville? 

[corco]

Yeah, I feel like for navigation purposes its helpful to leave the old and new signs up for a couple years so folks don't get lost, especially when dealing with an interstate, which ostensibly would have a good chunk of travelers unfamiliar with the area.

[Henry]

Really, is this happening right now? I thought it wouldn't be done until the missing link of I-49 (Bella Vista Bypass) was completed. Talk about jumping the gun there...

[AHTD]

No gun jumping here! Consult prior information posted in the forum:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3324.msg292985#msg292985

Exactly where would one "draw the line" at a point in time where the I-540 signs should be removed? There is a constant stream of new people through the area that may or may not notice the route markers don't match their GPS screens. And think of the number of travelers who don't upgrade their in-dash navigation base map software. Too many scenarios for one solution to cover. Don't worry- word will (and has) traveled fast. There is no mistaking I-49 in Northwest Arkansas.
We have already worked with Google to update its base map to reflect the new route. Theirs is dual signed (I-49/I-540) until they can re-work the "logic" associated with their point-to-point navigation. http://5newsonline.com/2014/05/08/google-maps-updates-changes-i-540-to-i-49/

The U.S. 71 shield was removed because that stretch of freeway was designated an Interstate by FHWA. Previously, I-540 ended at Exit 86.

[corco]

In the past, and in other places, it's been common to co-sign things through a replacement cycle or so- see the US 666 renumbering to 491 in the Four Corners region for an example of that. I-69 in Texas is still fully signed with whatever US routes are concurrent, as a matter of policy, but also because it helps navigation until people are familiar with the new route number.  Others- I-64 in Missouri west of the river bridge is still well signed as US 40, partially because that change only occurred a couple years ago. I'm struggling to think of where there has been a renumbering of an important route lately that hasn't had some signage overlap.

Heck, even you guys signed US 71 when this very road transitioned to I 540.

They tried re-routing I-40 in Greensboro, NC along an outer bypass, but folks actually got lost and they ended up re-routing it back through town- and that was just in the last couple years.

Probably the most similar thing I can think of- when I-181 was renumbered to I-26 over in Tennessee, both signs were left up for a period of four years or so. Here's an AARoads picture of the same https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/tennessee999/boones_cr_rd_eb_at_i-026_wb.jpg. Exit numbers were supposedly posted with both for a period of 4-5 years until 2009. Hopefully somebody more familiar with that area can chime in to explain exactly how the signage transition happene.d

I suppose it is true that most folks navigate by GPS these days, and they'd be unlikely to notice, but it's certainly not everybody. Probably your worst case is folks semi-familiar with the area- they know the area well enough to know where they're going, but aren't intimately familiar with the area- the Walmart distributor from Dallas that drives over there twice a year. This person would know the route well enough that they don't need to use a map, and they'd know they need to get on I-540, and they'd see I-49 and Bentonville, and maybe they decide that I-49 is the same thing as I-540, but maybe they think "I-540 must still be ahead, I know that route," and that's where confusion comes in.

[bjrush]

If you are aware enough to call it I-540 and not "the bypass" or "the highway", you are probably aware enough to remember the big road right next to your Holiday Inn is still the same road despite renumbering

[corco]

If you are aware enough to call it I-540 and not "the bypass" or "the highway", you are probably aware enough to remember the big road right next to your Holiday Inn is still the same road despite renumbering

I'm more referring to travelers on I 40 or another major road where you can't really see where you are- obviously if you always stay at a hotel next to a freeway and you left that hotel and got lost because of a number change you'd be pretty stupid, but if you're out on I 40 where all exits look the same you could reasonably believe the  I 49 interchange is something different from the I 540 interchange.

I certainly don't think you need to mark I 540 everywhere, but at the I 40 interchange and any other major junction it would be beneficial to have some temporary, secondary signage indicating the road used to be I 540.

As I said, this is unusual. We can't really know how people react to abrupt renumbering because this hasn't happened at all in the last thirty or so years, where DOTs don't have some transition signing on a major road. It will be interesting. Maybe nobody will notice.

I just hope AHTD realizes that they are trying something new here- not signing or acknowledging the old route at all is unprecedented for a major renumbering in the last thirty years or so.

Not signing isn't necessarily bad- it just might work fine, but especially in the world of government, it is important for them to realize and at least note when they are doing something different than the norm.

[roadman65]

The way to do it is like DelDOT during a route number change using both routes signed until people get used to it, or have an OLD I-540 shield for a year at least.

[Road Hog]

There will always be some confusion for low-information drivers. But in 10 years very few will remember the old I-540. Nobody remembers that US 380 across North Texas used to be SH 24.

[Arkansastravelguy]

In the past, and in other places, it's been common to co-sign things through a replacement cycle or so- see the US 666 renumbering to 491 in the Four Corners region for an example of that. I-69 in Texas is still fully signed with whatever US routes are concurrent, as a matter of policy, but also because it helps navigation until people are familiar with the new route number.  Others- I-64 in Missouri west of the river bridge is still well signed as US 40, partially because that change only occurred a couple years ago. I'm struggling to think of where there has been a renumbering of an important route lately that hasn't had some signage overlap.

Heck, even you guys signed US 71 when this very road transitioned to I 540.

They tried re-routing I-40 in Greensboro, NC along an outer bypass, but folks actually got lost and they ended up re-routing it back through town- and that was just in the last couple years.

Probably the most similar thing I can think of- when I-181 was renumbered to I-26 over in Tennessee, both signs were left up for a period of four years or so. Here's an AARoads picture of the same https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/tennessee999/boones_cr_rd_eb_at_i-026_wb.jpg. Exit numbers were supposedly posted with both for a period of 4-5 years until 2009. Hopefully somebody more familiar with that area can chime in to explain exactly how the signage transition happene.d

I suppose it is true that most folks navigate by GPS these days, and they'd be unlikely to notice, but it's certainly not everybody. Probably your worst case is folks semi-familiar with the area- they know the area well enough to know where they're going, but aren't intimately familiar with the area- the Walmart distributor from Dallas that drives over there twice a year. This person would know the route well enough that they don't need to use a map, and they'd know they need to get on I-540, and they'd see I-49 and Bentonville, and maybe they decide that I-49 is the same thing as I-540, but maybe they think "I-540 must still be ahead, I know that route," and that's where confusion comes in.

I lived in North Carolina when the bypass opened. The real problem was locals knew old 40 was quicker. Why take new 40 and add 15 minutes to your drive time? Plus having 3 interstates share the road was stupid in itself. A little off topic but it made no sense making old 40 Business 40 instead of x40 (like 340) giving Guilford county two green 40s on top of two green 85s.

I do think old 540 signs would be helpful at major interchanges like I40 and US 62. And it's absurd not to co-sign 62/71 instead of them "disappearing" except for a few random signs on side streets.


iPhone

[bugo]

There will always be some confusion for low-information drivers. But in 10 years very few will remember the old I-540. Nobody remembers that US 380 across North Texas used to be SH 24.

Uh, US 380 hasn't been TX 24 in many decades.  And I'm not sure the locals don't remember it as 24.  The locals still call AR 375 "old hwy 71" even though it hasn't been US 71 since the early thirties.

[bugo]

AHTD (the organization, not the poster) is run by folks who just don't have a clue.  There is no reason I-540 signs shouldn't remain up for at least two years.  No reason.  The signs were already there so it's not like it would cost much money, it would only take a couple of bolts and 1 minute labor.

[roadman65]

You know instant changes do actually confuse.  My parents back in the early 70s got confused when the map they had showed I-4 crossing the Howard Franklin Bridge in Tampa when at the time it was after I-4 was truncated to where it is now.  FDOT did not have OLD, FORMER, or any left over signs after the change either.  Nor did they when I-275 took over I-75  years later have any OLd, FORMER, or any other type of changeover signs.

Virginia also did the same for when I-95 in Alexandria and Arlington was changed to I-395.  We had Holiday Inn Directory showing one of their properties being at I-95 and Glebe Road.  Of course my folks were dumfounded not being able to find an interchange between I-95 and Glebe Road in Arlington.  We did happen, of course, to find our hotel, but having transitioning signage would have helped some.

How long is it going to take when businesses along old I-540 will change their ads over to I-49?

[bugo]

Here is how AHTD used to do it:







Would it be that difficult to have placed the I-540 signs underneath the I-49 signs?  It would have taken only one bolt.  More buffoonery from the Arkansas Highway and Transportation Department.  Sometimes I'm really glad I live in a state that actually signs its highways (except for OK 66 in OKC).

[Arkansastravelguy]

Here is how AHTD used to do it:







Would it be that difficult to have placed the I-540 signs underneath the I-49 signs?  It would have taken only one bolt.  More buffoonery from the Arkansas Highway and Transportation Department.  Sometimes I'm really glad I live in a state that actually signs its highways (except for OK 66 in OKC).

I drove OK 66 yesterday rom OKC to Tulsa and it's signed pretty poorly in Tulsa as well


iPhone

[bugo]

What?  OK 66 is very well signed in Tulsa.  In fact you would be hard pressed to find an I-44 shield without an OK 66 shield right beside or underneath it.

[rte66man]

OK66 isn't signed at all in OKC on I44 because it DOESN'T EXIST from the I44/OK74 interchange east to the 2nd St exit on I35.

[bugo]

It does exist, it just isn't signed.

[hbelkins]

Kentucky has a specific policy in place for this:

Section
GUIDE SIGNS
Subject
FORMERLY Signs
INSTALLATION: When route numbers are changed on any state highway, the old route
number should be posted along with the new route number as a
convenience to motorists.
The procedure for installation is as follows:
1. Install new route marker.
2. Add a sign with the message FORMERLY below the new route marker.
3. Install the old route marker below the FORMERLY sign.
TIMEFRAME: The FORMERLY signs should be left in place for approximately one year.
COLOR: The FORMERLY signs shall have a black message and border on a white
background.

[US71]

When US 71B replaced AR 471, there was a transition period of at least a year,

[Arkansastravelguy]

When US 71B replaced AR 471, there was a transition period of at least a year,

Anyone have a 471 pic?


iPhone

[US71]

When US 71B replaced AR 471, there was a transition period of at least a year,

Anyone have a 471 pic?

iPhone

This is all I have


I never got a photo, but a couple of the exit signs originally said US 471 instead of AR 471.

[bugo]

When US 71B replaced AR 471, there was a transition period of at least a year,

Was there a transition period when AR 471 replaced US 71B?  Before AR 471, was US 62B signed from Fayetteville to Rogers?

[US71]

When US 71B replaced AR 471, there was a transition period of at least a year,

Was there a transition period when AR 471 replaced US 71B?  Before AR 471, was US 62B signed from Fayetteville to Rogers?

I recall no transition from 71B to 471.

62B did run Fayetteville to Rogers at one time along 71B.  62B would eventually become AR 180 from  71B / S School Ave to I-49, but there was no transition.

[M86]

Bugo, I have to disagree with you here.  There's no reason to leave the I-540 shields up.  Just get rid of them.  Start anew with I-49.  AHTD wasn't signing US 71 with it anyway.

But I know we agree with co-signing routes.  The exit closest to me (Exit 86) on I-49, got rid of all of the US 71 shields...

I see here and there, with co-signing... I need to start taking pictures, in Rogers.  AR 12 has more routings than I can keep up with.