Was I-990 originally supposed to run east of NY 263?

[Rothman]

'Fraid not, Webny99.

Hasn't even been proposed or considered unlike other, even more "winner" ideas like I-386 to Wellsville.

If it was needed, it would have at least had some nut out there ranting about it...like the Rooftop...

[Roadgeek Adam]

'Fraid not, Webny99.

Hasn't even been proposed or considered unlike other, even more "winner" ideas like I-386 to Wellsville.

We don't need I-386 to Wellsville. Wellsville isn't exactly the premier destination.

While a more direct state route to Wellsville from the northeast would be nice, at that point, just trade for Vandermark Road.

[Buffaboy]

I've driven NY 5, which parallels the Thruway through there. I promise you there's not enough traffic east of NY 78 to justify anything remotely close to a freeway or even a 4-lane arterial boulevard. Money that could be better spent getting Hudson and Rome proper Amtrak stations.

A better station for Rome? Maybe, although what's there isn't terrible and Utica is 10 miles away.

I guess by better, it depends on what you mean.

[webny99]

I've driven NY 5, which parallels the Thruway through there. I promise you there's not enough traffic east of NY 78 to justify anything remotely close to a freeway or even a 4-lane arterial boulevard.

To be clear, I wasn't really talking about a freeway along the NY 5 corridor. The discussion was about an extension of NY 531, which would be much further north, perhaps roughly paralleling NY 31, and therefore siphoning traffic from NY 31 and NY 104, in addition to the Thruway.

'Fraid not, Webny99.
Hasn't even been proposed or considered unlike other, even more "winner" ideas like I-386 to Wellsville.

I'm sure others will confirm, but it has definitely been proposed:

The Spencerport Expressway [NY 531, that is] was conceived as part of a plan to link Rochester and Buffalo with a limited-access, toll-free highway. Although this plan was ultimately scrapped...

On October 30, 1968, the New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT) nominated 20 proposed highways to be added to the Interstate Highway System ... One of the submitted roads was the Lockport Expressway, a 12-mile (19 km), $22 million limited-access highway extending in a northeast—southwest direction between I-290 north of Buffalo and a proposed Niagara Falls—Rochester freeway near Lockport.

[Rothman]

Gee.  That's only 50 years old.  There may be one guy at NYSDOT that has that proposal in a file somewhere...but he's probably forgotten by now where the file is and is probably due for retirement by the end of the year.

[webny99]

Gee.  That's only 50 years old.  There may be one guy at NYSDOT that has that proposal in a file somewhere...but he's probably forgotten by now where the file is and is probably due for retirement by the end of the year.

Granted, and it never got any serious traction, as far as I can tell. But still, I wasn't the first one to ponder it.

[Roadgeek Adam]

The Lockport Expressway (now I-990), was supposed to tie into that Niagara Falls-Rochester Expressway. Just looking at newspapers, NYSDOT considered both of them third-tier projects.

[machias]

The Lockport Expressway (now I-990), was supposed to tie into that Niagara Falls-Rochester Expressway. Just looking at newspapers, NYSDOT considered both of them third-tier projects.

Original distance signs on the Lake Ontario State Parkway indicated the distance to Niagara Falls. Wouldn't the LOSP have tied into this Niagara Falls-Rochester freeway?

[Roadgeek Adam]

The Lockport Expressway (now I-990), was supposed to tie into that Niagara Falls-Rochester Expressway. Just looking at newspapers, NYSDOT considered both of them third-tier projects.

Original distance signs on the Lake Ontario State Parkway indicated the distance to Niagara Falls. Wouldn't the LOSP have tied into this Niagara Falls-Rochester freeway?

The NF-R Expressway was to end at 190. The LOSP proposals go to Fort Niagara State Park, basically the RMSP/NSP now.

[vdeane]

So...build the freeway first to see if it is justified? 

...

No.

He's basically arguing in favor of induced demand.

[webny99]

So...build the freeway first to see if it is justified? 
...
No.

He's basically arguing in favor of induced demand.

Well, sort of, I guess.
I just think this particular case is unique in that there are several existing corridors on which traffic would use the freeway if it was available. It's not necessarily that demand will go up significantly, just that the freeway would basically serve the compilation of existing demand for all of the existing east-west routes.
Even if it's completely unjustified when looking at a single corridor, that doesn't give the full picture here.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Let's look at these 1968 proposals for a minute:

A-Level:

1) Binghamton-Rochester Expressway - I-81 and the STE to the Inner Loop in Rochester, basically 86 and 390, built

2) Binghamton-Erie Expressway - NY 17/I-86, STE, built

3) Southern Expressway - US 219, half-built.

4) Watertown-Burlington Expressway  - Never built, basically follows US 11 eastward from Watertown to I-87 with a proposed extension to I-89 in Burlington, Vermont.

5) Susquehanna Expressway - I-88, built, with proposed extension to Vermont near Bennington, never built.

6) Syracuse Belt Loop - Proposal to finish the beltway around Syracuse for then I-281 (now 481), I-690 and 90, involving Route 57.

7) Northway-Vermont Expressway - Proposal for a freeway along the US 4 corridor out of Glens Falls eastward to a proposed interstate near Fair Haven, Vermont, never built.

B-level:

8) Elmira-Cortland Expressway - 49 miles at $68 million, a freeway via the NY 13 corridor, never built.

9) Rochester Outer Loop - Finished, I-590 and I-490 and I-390.

10) Binghamton-New York Expressway - Finished (NY 17, Southern Tier Expressway/Quickway)

C-level:

11) Niagara Falls-Rochester Expressway - 66.3 miles at $120 million, a freeway via the NY 31 corridor from I-190 in Niagara Falls to 490 in Rochester, never built.

12) Buffalo-New York Expressway - (no distance or cost specified), from Buffalo to I-390 running southeasterly and easterly, unbuilt.

13) Lockport Expressway - 12 miles, $22 million. This would be from I-290 to the Niagara Falls-Rochester Expressway, built to I-290.

14) Delaware-St. Lawrence Expressway - 212 miles, $300 million. This would be an expressway from the Broome/Delaware County area to Canadian line via Utica/Rome. This would include the crossing at Odgensburg with a connecting freeway to Ottawa, unbuilt.

15) Amsterdam-Northerly Expressway - 20 miles, $25 million. A freeway from Amsterdam to the Adirondack Northway in Saratoga Springs, unbuilt.



Let's look at it this way, the state had grander ideas that were at most pipe dreams. 2018 traffic doesn't need a lot of the unbuilt ones.

[froggie]

^ I'd like to know the source for this plus which Wikipedia article webny99 was quoting earlier (since he didn't provide a link).

[Roadgeek Adam]

Elmira Star-Gazette, October 31, 1968, p. 1.

You're welcome

[Beltway]

That Buffalo-Dansville freeway would be a boon for traffic between the D.C area and Buffalo (and Toronto).  Bypass the last 2-lane segment.

[froggie]

Looks to me like the Interstate requests NYS submitted in response to the 1968 Highway Act which added 1,500 miles to the system.  FHWA tasked states to submit their mileage requests and what's in that news article basically matches what I've seen of NY's requests from other sources.

[cl94]

Eh, most of those proposals sans the NY 8/12, NY 31, and NY 67 ones would be nice to have today. US 4, US 11, and NY 13 are routinely painful, while US 20/NY 63 often is. Ithaca is one of the few MSAs in the lower 48 without 4-lane access to the rest of the country.

[Dougtone]

That Amsterdam-Northway highway looks like it may be an an extension of I-890 or an Alternate NY 50, as spelled out in a 1967 article from the Daily Gazette of Schenectady.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sGgtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EYoFAAAAIBAJ&dq=exit%2026%20bridge%20glenville&pg=815%2C3173431

[Buffaboy]

I don't want to add fuel to the fire (as this is really a dead end topic until I-90 has major traffic issues), but today I-90 WB between Exit 58 and Exit 57A was pretty congested for a 4 lane freeway in predominantly rural areas. Much of this was probably truck traffic, and I observed this going eastbound from Irving, but it's another example of why I-90 will need to be widened at some points in the coming years. I'm not advocating for new freeway construction as it's unrealistic.

[froggie]

Eh, most of those proposals sans the NY 8/12, NY 31, and NY 67 ones would be nice to have today. US 4, US 11, and NY 13 are routinely painful, while US 20/NY 63 often is. Ithaca is one of the few MSAs in the lower 48 without 4-lane access to the rest of the country.

They may be "routinely painful" and an Interstate would be a "nice to have", but they don't require a full Interstate-grade facility to fix.  Passing lanes and select town bypasses would work for US 11.  Best thing for NY 13 would be 4-laning from Ithaca to Cortland with a bypass of Dryden and tying into Exit 12 on I-91.  US 4 has the best argument for a freeway facility but would be the most difficult to implement given Glens Falls area development and the Adirondack Park boundary.  Still, bypasses of Fort Ann and Whitehall and a more direct connection from 149 to the Northway would be big improvements over existing.  All of these would be far easier (and cheaper) to implement than a freeway would be.

[webny99]

^ I'd like to know the source for this plus which Wikipedia article webny99 was quoting earlier (since he didn't provide a link).

I was trying to turn the "quote author = wikipedia" message into a link, but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Anyways, the quotes were from Wikipedia's NY 531 and I-990 articles, from the "History" section in both cases.

[webny99]

Ithaca is one of the few MSAs in the lower 48 without 4-lane access to the rest of the country.

Interesting.

[froggie]

I was trying to turn the "quote author = wikipedia" message into a link, but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

If you're doing it manually, you have to add the [ url= ] [ /url ] tabs within the quote tags.

[cl94]

Eh, most of those proposals sans the NY 8/12, NY 31, and NY 67 ones would be nice to have today. US 4, US 11, and NY 13 are routinely painful, while US 20/NY 63 often is. Ithaca is one of the few MSAs in the lower 48 without 4-lane access to the rest of the country.

They may be "routinely painful" and an Interstate would be a "nice to have", but they don't require a full Interstate-grade facility to fix.  Passing lanes and select town bypasses would work for US 11.  Best thing for NY 13 would be 4-laning from Ithaca to Cortland with a bypass of Dryden and tying into Exit 12 on I-91.  US 4 has the best argument for a freeway facility but would be the most difficult to implement given Glens Falls area development and the Adirondack Park boundary.  Still, bypasses of Fort Ann and Whitehall and a more direct connection from 149 to the Northway would be big improvements over existing.  All of these would be far easier (and cheaper) to implement than a freeway would be.

Certainly. I don't think full freeways are required for any of them, but passing lanes are needed. None of them need more than an expressway-grade facility.

[webny99]

I was trying to turn the "quote author = wikipedia" message into a link, but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

If you're doing it manually, you have to add the [ url= ] [ /url ] tabs within the quote tags.

I tried. I must have been putting the above in the wrong spot, because it kept not only posting the entire link, but messing up the quote sequence as well.

I'll mess around some more and try to fix it.