Lake Michigan Carferry (SS Badger) as part of US 10

Started by oscar, September 10, 2018, 09:24:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

captkirk_4

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.


paulthemapguy

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

That's probably why they figured they could gouge people.  I wonder what a similar 4-hour trip would cost on a ferry in a state with lots of them, say Washington or Alaska.  I think the SS Badger knew what their market competitors were (i.e. driving around Lake Michigan to the south or north) and determined their pricing based on that, rather than, oh I don't know, covering costs with a small margin for profit like most businesses.  I'm sure their prices would be much lower if there was a second competing ferry company in the same area (Milwaukee-Muskegon isn't really the same area).
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

MantyMadTown

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

It doesn't really make sense to take the Badger carferry if you're going to or coming from a place other than the middle of Wisconsin or Michigan. If you're coming from the southwest or southeast (eg Iowa or Cleveland) then the southern route is the best option. If you're coming from the northwest (eg the Twin Cities), then taking the northern route might be a better option if you want less traffic, but then again most route maps suggest taking the Lake Express ferry instead of the Badger, simply because the trip only takes 2.5 hours instead of 4.
Forget the I-41 haters

SEWIGuy

Quote from: paulthemapguy on September 25, 2018, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

That's probably why they figured they could gouge people.  I wonder what a similar 4-hour trip would cost on a ferry in a state with lots of them, say Washington or Alaska.  I think the SS Badger knew what their market competitors were (i.e. driving around Lake Michigan to the south or north) and determined their pricing based on that, rather than, oh I don't know, covering costs with a small margin for profit like most businesses.  I'm sure their prices would be much lower if there was a second competing ferry company in the same area (Milwaukee-Muskegon isn't really the same area).


Actually most businesses will charge whatever the market will pay to maximize their revenues.  If SS Badger is so profitable, other players can enter the market.  But I don't think it is nearly as profitable as you are portraying.

jzn110 has the correct take on this.  It's mostly used for tourism.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.


Only if you hit at the wrong time of day.  (Morning or evening rush.)  Otherwise, the Bridge is so far east that it isn't really a viable option.

triplemultiplex

I assume it costs a lot of money to keep that old boat moving with its antiquated, coal-powered boiler.  Lots of specialized maintenance.

I've traveled both ferries a couple times.  Soooooo much more relaxing than driving through the rat race in Chicago.  Yeah it was expensive, but how much is your sanity worth?
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

abefroman329

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 25, 2018, 03:20:44 PMI've traveled both ferries a couple times.  Soooooo much more relaxing than driving through the rat race in Chicago.  Yeah it was expensive, but how much is your sanity worth?
I found it easy enough to get from our home on the North Side to my in-laws' house in Holland and back, provided we left at the right time of day. Now that they live in Valparaiso, life is much simpler.

triplemultiplex

It's a different drive when one is already used to the madness.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

oscar

#33
Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2018, 10:46:59 PM
I could probably get a discount since I have a relative in high places there, but the fact that they don't let you park your car yourself (and apparently don't allow access to it during the trip) is a major turn-off for me.

No vehicle access while underway is standard practice for larger vessels with separate vehicle and passenger decks. On really long journeys (like the six-day trip from Washington state to Homer AK), there will be occasional opportunities for supervised trips down to your vehicle to walk your dogs, etc. (no pets allowed on the passenger deck), as well as brief visits while the ship is in port. But "no parking your own car on the vehicle deck" is definitely unusual.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Flint1979

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.


A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.
Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.
Not really, going over the Mackinac Bridge from Ludington to Manitowoc is going to take around 8 and a half hours (515 miles). Going through Chicago it's going to take you around 6 and a half hours (419 miles). Taking the ferry is going to take you around 3 hours and 40 minutes (62.5 miles and you don't use any gas or put any miles on your car) but yes it's expensive.

GaryV

And don't forget the Chief Wawatam, the black-smoke belching railroad ferry that was still running across the Straits of Mackinac in the 1960's and 70's, possibly as late as 1984.  It was cut down to a barge, and you would sometimes see it carrying rolls of steel from the Algoma Steel (now owned by Essar) plant in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario.  The Chief was scrapped in 2009, after 98 total years of service.

jzn110

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 25, 2018, 02:28:03 PM
Actually most businesses will charge whatever the market will pay to maximize their revenues.  If SS Badger is so profitable, other players can enter the market.  But I don't think it is nearly as profitable as you are portraying.

jzn110 has the correct take on this.  It's mostly used for tourism.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 25, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
I assume it costs a lot of money to keep that old boat moving with its antiquated, coal-powered boiler.  Lots of specialized maintenance.

If maximizing profitability was the Badger's primary concern, they'd have converted the engines years ago, possibly even to diesel, but instead they're keeping the coal-fired engines going for their historical significance. They even invested a large amount of money a couple years ago into a system that safely contains the coal ash onboard the ship to be disposed of in port so that the ship could remain in compliance with the EPA (ash was previously just dumped overboard as it was cleaned out of the boilers).

That said, both the Badger and the Lake Express are profitable operations, but neither discloses what their profits actually are for competitive reasons.

kphoger

Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

MantyMadTown

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 09:51:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.

Can confirm. I saw people ice fishing on Lake Michigan when I lived in Manitowoc.
Forget the I-41 haters

triplemultiplex

You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

edwaleni

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 09:51:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.

I can't remember the specific charges. 

Most of them were marine based if memory serves

- no boating license
- no marine registration
- vehicle in a public Parkway

The states attorney got in an argument about it because they couldn't decide to prosecute him under marine laws or motor vehicle.

Coast Guard didn't press any federal waterway violations because in their mind he was never waterborne.

I can't remember how it finished legally, I think he had to pay some fine.

ftballfan

I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?

SEWIGuy

Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?

Not that I recall.

Flint1979

Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?
I don't think there was.

Flint1979

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.
Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Flint1979

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.
Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)
Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 04:35:55 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.
Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)
Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.


He said "on a frozen lake."  Not "across."

MantyMadTown

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 07, 2018, 09:11:53 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 04:35:55 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.
An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.
Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)
Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.


He said "on a frozen lake."  Not "across."

Lake Michigan still (partially) freezes over during the winter. It never freezes over completely though. It's gotten really close though (around 90-95%). The last time that happened was the winter 2013-14 when it was insanely cold.
Forget the I-41 haters

edwaleni

Lake Michigan has and does freeze over completely at the far south end between Michigan and Illinois.

It doesn't happen very often and the temps have to stay below freezing for an extended period for it occur.

The only exception is in Indiana near the BP refinery and Gary Steel Works where effluent from the Little Calumet River enters the lake well above freezing and so the water stays liquefied.

However there is a part of Lake Michigan between Michigan and Wisconsin that will never freeze simply because the water is just too deep and turns over frequently which inhibits it from icing up.

Anyone who has scuba dived at the southern end knows that it is relatively shallow there. In fact there is an area of petrified tree stumps on the lake bottom that date back to a pre-glacial forest.

This relative shallowness and lack of turnover is why it tends to freeze over and when it does it can be very solid.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.