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Author Topic: Overbuilt Interchanges  (Read 7378 times)

tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2021, 01:36:50 PM »

Here's another OVERBUILT interchange.

The movement from 64 Business East to 64 East future I-87 North only carries about 4,100 vehicles per day. It could do well with just a loop.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8036632,-78.4330201,15.46z

Also in reality, I don't think this signal is needed. https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8044224,-78.429979,3a,75y,251.85h,78.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTZuG851V6Ubf8s6Mk72bOA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



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mrcmc888

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2021, 02:03:00 PM »

The Downtown Connector in Atlanta has two ridiculous intersections back-to-back:

This one at Freedom Parkway, which is a short surface-level boulevard connecting the interstate to Ponce de Leon Avenue:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B045'33.8%22N+84%C2%B022'45.0%22W/@33.759398,-84.3813577,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0xb05cf9dec0da5b2a!7e2!8m2!3d33.7593976!4d-84.3791688

The one to the north, which tries to incorporate multiple movements from cross-streets:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B046'05.1%22N+84%C2%B023'23.9%22W/@33.768085,-84.3921507,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x21ebbeeb58465596!7e2!8m2!3d33.768085!4d-84.3899619
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adventurernumber1

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2021, 02:31:11 AM »

The Downtown Connector in Atlanta has two ridiculous intersections back-to-back:

This one at Freedom Parkway, which is a short surface-level boulevard connecting the interstate to Ponce de Leon Avenue:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B045'33.8%22N+84%C2%B022'45.0%22W/@33.759398,-84.3813577,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0xb05cf9dec0da5b2a!7e2!8m2!3d33.7593976!4d-84.3791688

The one to the north, which tries to incorporate multiple movements from cross-streets:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B046'05.1%22N+84%C2%B023'23.9%22W/@33.768085,-84.3921507,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x21ebbeeb58465596!7e2!8m2!3d33.768085!4d-84.3899619

I canít speak for the latter, but I believe the former was a victim of the Atlanta freeway revolts (an interchange with the proposed I-485 IIRC). But in any case that is definitely a ton of ramps circulating through downtown Atlanta.  :-D


In San Diego, the 43rd St. exit from I-805 looks seriously overbuilt at first glance:

https://goo.gl/maps/Rv8ivL9fYj3tnA1r7

Thing is, this interchange was to connect to the doomed CA 252 freeway (a victim of California's freeway revolts). But that project was still alive when I-805 was under construction. It made sense to build the interchange before I-805 was opened to traffic.

That explains a lot, as that definitely looks like a really overbuilt interchange, and when I first noticed it before looking on Google Maps I was scratching my head at the rationale. I hadnít realized that there was a proposed freeway there that had been canceled.
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Tom958

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2021, 06:33:25 AM »

The Downtown Connector in Atlanta has two ridiculous intersections back-to-back:

This one at Freedom Parkway, which is a short surface-level boulevard connecting the interstate to Ponce de Leon Avenue:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B045'33.8%22N+84%C2%B022'45.0%22W/@33.759398,-84.3813577,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0xb05cf9dec0da5b2a!7e2!8m2!3d33.7593976!4d-84.3791688

I canít speak for the latter, but I believe the former was a victim of the Atlanta freeway revolts (an interchange with the proposed I-485 IIRC). But in any case that is definitely a ton of ramps circulating through downtown Atlanta.  :-D

The original scheme for this interchange, which was built as part of the Downtown Connector reconstruction in the mid eighties, was just a split diamond. There were no flyover ramps. The flyovers were added during the era when the Presidential Parkway was under development as a controlled-access highway all the way to Ponce De Leon a mile or so past Moreland. Perhaps the flyovers should've been deferred until the parkway was a done deal, which it never was.


The one to the north, which tries to incorporate multiple movements from cross-streets:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B046'05.1%22N+84%C2%B023'23.9%22W/@33.768085,-84.3921507,748m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x21ebbeeb58465596!7e2!8m2!3d33.768085!4d-84.3899619

There is nothing wrong with this interchange. It provides a diagonal link that allows Spring and West Peachtree north of the interchange and Ted Turner Drive and Centennial Olympic Park Drive to the south to function as a single one-way pair, greatly increasing capacity through the area. It also provides access to and from the one-way pair and to and from North Avenue in nearly every direction. I think it's rather brilliant.
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Tom958

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2021, 06:42:11 AM »

So, you're driving toward Waco on little FM 2113 when you encounter this elevated onramp to I-35 stretching as far as the eye can see. The viaduct is 2335 feet long and the entire ramp 0.8 miles. Here's the overhead view. Construction of the interchange was underway in 2009 and finished in 2013, a few years before the rest of the I-35 mega-reconstruction most of the way to Austin. Oddly, despite having this one insanely long elevated ramp, it lacks the U-turn ramps for the frontage roads that are all but ubiquitous in Texas.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 09:02:12 PM by Tom958 »
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2021, 04:35:12 PM »

The flyover ramp going from the All American Freeway North to I-295 south is useless. There's like next to no traffic using it.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1118541,-78.9742585/35.1105596,-78.974693/@35.1111216,-78.9747159,969m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

And the loop I circled carries the MOST traffic...

Maybe it was purposely designed this way to avoid impact to the wetlands?

This ramp also carries little to no traffic. Another useless flyover ramp.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4204927,-77.9974086/35.4282185,-78.0045565/@35.4258118,-77.9971439,1405m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0


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Rick Powell

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2021, 01:16:40 PM »

Probably not the most egregious example, but an outlet mall was supposed to go in at Exit 112 at Morris IL on I-80, and dual right and left turn lanes were built on the NE exit ramp. At least IDOT got the developer to contribute before the project was scrapped.

https://tinyurl.com/2hyunn4d
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sernum

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2021, 03:58:33 PM »

all of i295 in Virginia, and maybe the 40 Winston-Salem beltway crossing
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2021, 04:35:20 PM »

all of i295 in Virginia, and maybe the 40 Winston-Salem beltway crossing
Technically I-95 was supposed to go on where I-295 is on right now and for the Winston-Salem northern beltway, what makes you say that its overbuilt?
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Tom958

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2021, 07:29:15 PM »

The flyover ramp going from the All American Freeway North to I-295 south is useless. There's like next to no traffic using it.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1118541,-78.9742585/35.1105596,-78.974693/@35.1111216,-78.9747159,969m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

And the loop I circled carries the MOST traffic...

Maybe it was purposely designed this way to avoid impact to the wetlands?

This ramp also carries little to no traffic. Another useless flyover ramp.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4204927,-77.9974086/35.4282185,-78.0045565/@35.4258118,-77.9971439,1405m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

The ramps may be underutilized, but they're not useless. Without them, the interchanges would be incomplete.

NCDOT must've made a policy decision to build cloverstacks instead of four-loop interchanges with CDs even when traffic volumes don't warrant flyover ramps. Once that's done, next is deciding which two quadrants get the loop ramps. I'm sure that decision for the one at Fort Bragg was driven by weaving arrangements with the Bragg Boulevard interchange. The other one... generally, in a skewed interchange like that, the flyovers will be shorter in one direction, and that's where the designers put the flyovers. It's no great mystery.

I recall reading years ago that Texas had made a policy decision not to use loop ramps at system interchanges at all. Imagine that.
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2021, 07:30:53 PM »

I recall reading years ago that Texas had made a policy decision not to use loop ramps at system interchanges at all. Imagine that.
Then you may wonder why they overspend on construction when they are heavily obsessed with the frontage roads.
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Scott5114

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2021, 07:33:34 PM »

I recall reading years ago that Texas had made a policy decision not to use loop ramps at system interchanges at all. Imagine that.
Then you may wonder why they overspend on construction when they are heavily obsessed with the frontage roads.

What do frontage roads have to do with system interchanges?
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2021, 07:45:15 PM »

I recall reading years ago that Texas had made a policy decision not to use loop ramps at system interchanges at all. Imagine that.
Then you may wonder why they overspend on construction when they are heavily obsessed with the frontage roads.

What do frontage roads have to do with system interchanges?
Nothing. I mean they are like closely spaced even in a rural area like here. Although they do help if there is like an accident but they are not my style to be honest. I prefer full access as opposed to an interchange designed like that which I don't like.
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Scott5114

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2021, 08:01:36 PM »

I recall reading years ago that Texas had made a policy decision not to use loop ramps at system interchanges at all. Imagine that.
Then you may wonder why they overspend on construction when they are heavily obsessed with the frontage roads.

What do frontage roads have to do with system interchanges?
Nothing. I mean they are like closely spaced even in a rural area like here. Although they do help if there is like an accident but they are not my style to be honest. I prefer full access as opposed to an interchange designed like that which I don't like.

That's a service interchange (i.e. it is not a freeway-to-freeway interchange), which the TxDOT policy Tom was referring to wouldn't apply to.
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Tom958

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2021, 08:09:30 PM »

I-285 at GA 10 Memorial Drive near Atlanta. Starting in the late eighties, Georgia DOT started planning for its next big thing after Freeing the Freeways: a Toronto-style collector-distributor system along seventy or so miles of freeways across metro Atlanta, basically the northern half of I-285 and extending northward along I-75, I-85, and GA 400. I found out about it from a front-page newspaper article published on the twentieth anniversary of Earth Day. GDOT started incorporating provisions for the CD system into any bridge or interchange projects within those corridors.

In 1994, I went to a public information meeting for one of the projects: the complex of interchanges at I-85 and GA 120, Sugarloaf Parkway, and Old Peachtree Road. I instantly recognized what it was, and, knowing that there was nothing like that in the RTP, I personally set out to stop it.

Meanwhile, it had become obvious to various agencies that metro Atlanta's excessive levels of vehicular travel would cause it to run afoul of standards set under the Clean Air Act, so GDOT, probably with the connivance of the FHWA, simply denied that they were building the regional CD system even as they continued to do so. This rocked on until 1998, when the pressure finally got to the GDOT commissioner and he fessed up in a front-page newspaper article. I felt very good about myself that day.

Honestly, the concept never was that feasible, and after the air quality crisis, it was quietly abandoned, leaving bits of expensive detritus scattered around town (especially along I-285 in Cobb County). As it happened, GDOT decided to replace the bridge carrying US 29 Lawrenceville Highway over I-285. Finished in 2007, it was the first bridge/interchange project within the CD system corridors not to have provision for the CDs. End of story, right?

No. Shortly afterward, GDOT replaced the Memorial Drive bridge with a full-blown, CD-ready interchange! What the actual fuck? Looking back on it, it's hard to understand, but somehow I managed not to travel that section of 285 throughout the entire construction period. I didn't even know about it until it was done.

So, here it is, in all its ridiculous, wasteful glory. That towering retaining wall made room for what was supposed to be one of the three-lane CD roads, but is now the state's most expensive planter.

https://goo.gl/maps/GZaxqLxqB8vr9xkC9
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 08:12:15 PM by Tom958 »
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2021, 09:09:08 PM »

all of i295 in Virginia, and maybe the 40 Winston-Salem beltway crossing

Technically I-95 was supposed to go on where I-295 is on right now and for the Winston-Salem northern beltway, what makes you say that its overbuilt?

The proposed interchange between I-40 and the east side of the Winston-Salem Northern Beltway (I-74) is huge.  That's because there's a small neighborhood off of Oak Grove Church Road that is south of I-40, plus a small lake (ergo, large pond) just west of there.   The eastbound ramp off of I-40 to [northbound] I-74 is planned to run south of the pond, and the [southbound] ramp off of I-74 to eastbound I-40 will circle around way to the south of that neighborhood.  Presumably, neither of these ramps will be the preferred route as the exiting routes using the Salem Parkway (US-421, formerly Green-40) and the North-South Expressway (US-52) are much shorter connections.

Here's the plan:  https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/wsnb/Documents/eastern-section-6-map-1.pdf

By the way:  It was cool pulling up the project overview map (PDF) on the NCDOT website.  I was trying to zoom in on something of the PDF, when I realized that the area I was looking at was a "Hot Link".  Sure enough, if you click there it pulled up this detailed map of Section 6.
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sernum

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2021, 12:31:50 AM »

all of i295 in Virginia, and maybe the 40 Winston-Salem beltway crossing

Technically I-95 was supposed to go on where I-295 is on right now and for the Winston-Salem northern beltway, what makes you say that its overbuilt?

The proposed interchange between I-40 and the east side of the Winston-Salem Northern Beltway (I-74) is huge.  That's because there's a small neighborhood off of Oak Grove Church Road that is south of I-40, plus a small lake (ergo, large pond) just west of there.   The eastbound ramp off of I-40 to [northbound] I-74 is planned to run south of the pond, and the [southbound] ramp off of I-74 to eastbound I-40 will circle around way to the south of that neighborhood.  Presumably, neither of these ramps will be the preferred route as the exiting routes using the Salem Parkway (US-421, formerly Green-40) and the North-South Expressway (US-52) are much shorter connections.

Here's the plan:  https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/wsnb/Documents/eastern-section-6-map-1.pdf

By the way:  It was cool pulling up the project overview map (PDF) on the NCDOT website.  I was trying to zoom in on something of the PDF, when I realized that the area I was looking at was a "Hot Link".  Sure enough, if you click there it pulled up this detailed map of Section 6.

exactly my point, beyond stupidly big and for what?
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2021, 12:48:32 AM »

all of i295 in Virginia, and maybe the 40 Winston-Salem beltway crossing

Technically I-95 was supposed to go on where I-295 is on right now and for the Winston-Salem northern beltway, what makes you say that its overbuilt?

The proposed interchange between I-40 and the east side of the Winston-Salem Northern Beltway (I-74) is huge.  That's because there's a small neighborhood off of Oak Grove Church Road that is south of I-40, plus a small lake (ergo, large pond) just west of there.   The eastbound ramp off of I-40 to [northbound] I-74 is planned to run south of the pond, and the [southbound] ramp off of I-74 to eastbound I-40 will circle around way to the south of that neighborhood.  Presumably, neither of these ramps will be the preferred route as the exiting routes using the Salem Parkway (US-421, formerly Green-40) and the North-South Expressway (US-52) are much shorter connections.

Here's the plan:  https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/wsnb/Documents/eastern-section-6-map-1.pdf

By the way:  It was cool pulling up the project overview map (PDF) on the NCDOT website.  I was trying to zoom in on something of the PDF, when I realized that the area I was looking at was a "Hot Link".  Sure enough, if you click there it pulled up this detailed map of Section 6.

exactly my point, beyond stupidly big and for what?
incase there is an accident i guess, lol.
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tolbs17

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Re: Overbuilt Interchanges
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2021, 11:25:53 PM »

In the first post and the first link, (US-301/US-117) interchange is not really overbuilt for it's time because it used to carry all US-301/US-117 southbound traffic without having to conflict with the traffic making left turns. Until the US-117 bypass (which is now I-795) opened to traffic, traffic on the US-264 (future I-587) eastbound ramp which goes down to US-301/US-117 southbound significantly declined and now it could look overbuilt for its time now. But there should be no redesign, it's fine the way it is.

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