Rant: Why aren't Michigan lefts the standard on new arterial streets?

[Flint1979]

I don't have good things to say about Michigan really at all. When are they going to widen US-23 between Flint and the Ohio line? When are they going to widen I-94 pretty much through the entire state?

There are the same or higher traffic volumes on the four lane stretch of US-23 as there is the eight lane stretch of I-75 between Flint and Saginaw. Then I-75 itself narrows down to two lanes in each direction between MM 115 and 111.

For years I was wondering when they were finally going to replace all the old US-10 signs in Detroit after the Lodge Freeway had become M-10 instead of US-10 but into the 2000's there were still US-10 signs up and US-10 hasn't entered Detroit since the mid 1980's.

I don't get what the big deal about the width of the median of these streets is though. So it's an extra 30 feet that really isn't much of a big deal.

Oh when will they tear up the rest of M-58 and repave it? The one way stretch along State Street is in bad shape.

[jakeroot]

Uh it's not like it's something new, if you've drove in Michigan on a regular basis you'd be used to them, not the other way around. They are not that hard to get used to and as far as the extra ROW that doesn't make much of a difference.

I live in Washington State, mostly around people who come from other western states and Asia. No one here is used to Michigan U-turn corridors or the idea of "right, then U-turn to go left". So yes, it's basically something new.

Widening an arterial to 140 to 160 feet in width (average Michigan U-turn corridor width) would be laughably expensive and destructive. Most arterials around here have development right up to the edges, and the widest they ever really get is 100 to 120 feet; widening this corridor or this corridor (both already quite wide by suburban Seattle standards) to 140 to 160 feet ROW would literally be impossible. The most you'll ever get is an extra lane here, a double turn lane there, or a roundabout.

This all said, it's not unusual to find partial U-turn corridors in parts of the Seattle area, but they are not Michigan style. Canyon Road in Puyallup, a good hour south of Seattle, only allows left turns onto the corridor at signals -- all other movements are handled by right turns and/or U-turns. In general, this corridor runs very well; the green-time is coordinated based on time-of-day, and it handles tens of thousands of cars per day, easy. But it's not perfect: the major intersections still all permit left turns as the U-turns are very tight and cannot accommodate either (a) large volumes of vehicles nor (b) semi trucks, a very common vehicle along this corridor thanks to the many factories in the area. So the U-turns are reserved only for movements to/from minor roads. Redesigning this corridor to a level where every intersection was straight or right, and every movement was handled by U-turns, would be outrageously expensive and destructive.

[Scott5114]

Of course juxtaposing that prediction to how much Tesla FSD 10.8.1 currently struggles through a Michigan Left, you really question how attainable Full Self Driving is going to be.  I feel like FSD is always going to be just a "few years out".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SK48YpIsPI

I've never actually seen a video of a Tesla in FSD mode before. That's scary as shit. The video creator is clearly familiar with the weird behavior the car exhibits and so he can step in and baby it at the appropriate times, but the car drives kind of like a drunk person and does erratic stuff like taking up two lanes. I would hate to be around a car where the driver was using that technology, because I have no idea when it's going to glitch out and do something dumb.

[Flint1979]

Uh it's not like it's something new, if you've drove in Michigan on a regular basis you'd be used to them, not the other way around. They are not that hard to get used to and as far as the extra ROW that doesn't make much of a difference.

I live in Washington State, mostly around people who come from other western states and Asia. No one here is used to Michigan U-turn corridors or the idea of "right, then U-turn to go left". So yes, it's basically something new.

Widening an arterial to 140 to 160 feet in width (average Michigan U-turn corridor width) would be laughably expensive and destructive. Most arterials around here have development right up to the edges, and the widest they ever really get is 100 to 120 feet; widening this corridor or this corridor (both already quite wide by suburban Seattle standards) to 140 to 160 feet ROW would literally be impossible. The most you'll ever get is an extra lane here, a double turn lane there, or a roundabout.

This all said, it's not unusual to find partial U-turn corridors in parts of the Seattle area, but they are not Michigan style. Canyon Road in Puyallup, a good hour south of Seattle, only allows left turns onto the corridor at signals -- all other movements are handled by right turns and/or U-turns. In general, this corridor runs very well; the green-time is coordinated based on time-of-day, and it handles tens of thousands of cars per day, easy. But it's not perfect: the major intersections still all permit left turns as the U-turns are very tight and cannot accommodate either (a) large volumes of vehicles nor (b) semi trucks, a very common vehicle along this corridor thanks to the many factories in the area. So the U-turns are reserved only for movements to/from minor roads. Redesigning this corridor to a level where every intersection was straight or right, and every movement was handled by U-turns, would be outrageously expensive and destructive.

It's been around since the 1960's so it isn't something new. Just because you don't have any in your area doesn't mean it's something new. And it's not like they do this in the city of Detroit either it's in the suburbs where they do it for the most part. The only streets in the city would be like 8 Mile and Telegraph two streets that skirt the edge of the city. So this is a suburban thing not a city thing and was done before development started in the suburbs. Yeah if Seattle just now started doing something like that it wouldn't work but if they had done it before development started in the suburbs like Detroit it wouldn't have been much of a problem.

[fwydriver405]

Here's an example about 6 miles from my house that you HAVE to make the Michigan left to continue on Freeland Road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5232749,-83.9757339,561m/data=!3m1!1e3

While the concept (for the side street) is similar to a Michigan Left, isn't that setup just a Restricted Crossing U-Turn (minus the normal left turns on the major road)?

[Flint1979]

Here's an example about 6 miles from my house that you HAVE to make the Michigan left to continue on Freeland Road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5232749,-83.9757339,561m/data=!3m1!1e3

While the concept (for the side street) is similar to a Michigan Left, isn't that setup just a Restricted Crossing U-Turn?

It could probably be classified as that but M-84 is only setup like that for about 3 miles Freeland Road used to go through until they made it into what it is today about 20 years ago and no other roads cross it in the 3 miles. I'm not sure what the intention was for that stretch of M-84 anymore.

[jakeroot]

It's been around since the 1960's so it isn't something new. Just because you don't have any in your area doesn't mean it's something new. And it's not like they do this in the city of Detroit either it's in the suburbs where they do it for the most part. The only streets in the city would be like 8 Mile and Telegraph two streets that skirt the edge of the city. So this is a suburban thing not a city thing and was done before development started in the suburbs. Yeah if Seattle just now started doing something like that it wouldn't work but if they had done it before development started in the suburbs like Detroit it wouldn't have been much of a problem.

My point is just that people around here largely aren't familiar with the driving or engineering practices of Michigan. When we have to turn left, we...turn left. We don't think to do a Michigan Left unless it's expressly stated on a sign or something (R3-2 "no left" sign followed by a designated U-turn point a bit down the road...basically my Canyon Rd example).

The whole "done it before development started" point may have some truth to it, but it still requires a serious amount of forethought, especially urban-planning wise, to turn a two-lane highway into a Michigan Left corridor. My grandparents, curiously enough, have lived on my example road (Canyon Rd) since the early 1960s, when it was literally a two-lane highway with massive ditches on either side. Even then, there were stores abutting the highway that would have needed to be demolished to take the ROW from 60 feet to 140 feet (give or take). It would have been a lot easier then, but back then, Canyon wasn't a major through route -- that was WA-161, a bit further east. That would have a good corridor for some Michigan Left-style development, but even back then, I don't think there was any expectation that such capacity would have ever been necessary. I'm sure the county would love to go back 60 years and build a proper north-south high-capacity corridor, but that's obviously not going to happen.

Detroit and its suburbs absolutely did it right: set the ROW aside early, planned the Michigan Lefts along key corridors, and allowed them to flourish into the basically-freeway roads we see today. But few other municipalities have that level of forethought, and many ultimately pay the price later on -- literally, if they want to widen a roadway, since ROW acquisition is often expensive and would be extensive to build a proper Michigan Left corridor.

[skluth]

It's been around since the 1960's so it isn't something new. Just because you don't have any in your area doesn't mean it's something new. And it's not like they do this in the city of Detroit either it's in the suburbs where they do it for the most part. The only streets in the city would be like 8 Mile and Telegraph two streets that skirt the edge of the city. So this is a suburban thing not a city thing and was done before development started in the suburbs. Yeah if Seattle just now started doing something like that it wouldn't work but if they had done it before development started in the suburbs like Detroit it wouldn't have been much of a problem.

My point is just that people around here largely aren't familiar with the driving or engineering practices of Michigan. When we have to turn left, we...turn left. We don't think to do a Michigan Left unless it's expressly stated on a sign or something (R3-2 "no left" sign followed by a designated U-turn point a bit down the road...basically my Canyon Rd example).

The whole "done it before development started" point may have some truth to it, but it still requires a serious amount of forethought, especially urban-planning wise, to turn a two-lane highway into a Michigan Left corridor. My grandparents, curiously enough, have lived on my example road (Canyon Rd) since the early 1960s, when it was literally a two-lane highway with massive ditches on either side. Even then, there were stores abutting the highway that would have needed to be demolished to take the ROW from 60 feet to 140 feet (give or take). It would have been a lot easier then, but back then, Canyon wasn't a major through route -- that was WA-161, a bit further east. That would have a good corridor for some Michigan Left-style development, but even back then, I don't think there was any expectation that such capacity would have ever been necessary. I'm sure the county would love to go back 60 years and build a proper north-south high-capacity corridor, but that's obviously not going to happen.

Detroit and its suburbs absolutely did it right: set the ROW aside early, planned the Michigan Lefts along key corridors, and allowed them to flourish into the basically-freeway roads we see today. But few other municipalities have that level of forethought, and many ultimately pay the price later on -- literally, if they want to widen a roadway, since ROW acquisition is often expensive and would be extensive to build a proper Michigan Left corridor.

So what do drivers in the Pac NW do when they want to turn left and left turns are prohibited? This is quite common in St Louis where I spent most of my career. Locals are used to it and know how to get around on the side streets.  I would have appreciated a Michigan Left in these cases. It did take me a while to learn how to get around with many intuitive left turns being prohibited.

The St Louis Metro also has turns that are similar to Michigan Lefts on Lindbergh. I've seen this in a few other places but it wasn't a common MODOT strategy and the turnarounds are well marked.

[1995hoo]

That last one looks more like a jughandle.

[hbelkins]

Has anyone ever tried to do a good comparison of a Michgan left with an RCUT or J-turn?

Kentucky is installing RCUTs like crazy, and they all allow left turns from the main road to the side road. What they don't allow is the straight through movement which requires crossing four lanes of traffic. They make through traffic or left-turning traffic on the side road turn right and then do a U-turn to go back to the intersection.

Of course most of these are located in rural areas with highway speed traffic on the main road, and with no traffic signals.

[jakeroot]

So what do drivers in the Pac NW do when they want to turn left and left turns are prohibited?

In almost every case, left turn prohibitions are replaced by another left turn elsewhere, as opposed to a right-turn/U-turn combo.

Example 1: you cannot turn left directly into the Shell station, but you can turn left a few driveways later and then come back to the Shell.
Example 2: You cannot turn left onto Thomas (although through traffic isn't permitted at all, even along Thomas), but you can turn left either before or after this turn to reach Thomas via Dexter.
Example 3: you cannot turn left onto Winona Ave (few people would need to make this turn), but you can make several right turns and then proceed eastbound through the intersection.
Example 4: You cannot turn left from Mercer to 6th, but you can turn left either prior to here (at Dexter) or in a few blocks (at 5th) and then return to 6th via Harrison.

Here are some examples where left turns are prohibited from a side street:

Example 5: you cannot turn left directly onto Pacific Hwy, but you can turn right and then make a U-turn; reaching the road would require a U-turn as well, and the signals along this stretch specifically permit them.
Example 6: you cannot turn left directly onto Aurora, but you can turn right and then either make a couple more lefts, followed by a right onto Aurora, or a few rights, and then a left onto Aurora at another signal that permits it.

[kernals12]

Has anyone ever tried to do a good comparison of a Michgan left with an RCUT or J-turn?

Kentucky is installing RCUTs like crazy, and they all allow left turns from the main road to the side road. What they don't allow is the straight through movement which requires crossing four lanes of traffic. They make through traffic or left-turning traffic on the side road turn right and then do a U-turn to go back to the intersection.

Of course most of these are located in rural areas with highway speed traffic on the main road, and with no traffic signals.

Here's a comparison

[tradephoric]

YUMBLtv just designed a Michigan Left on Cities Skylines that doesn't require signalized U-turns.  The main issue i see with this design is that all U-turn traffic is dumped onto the left-most lane along the arterial making it difficult to safely merge to enter a close driveway on the right hand side of the road.  Very cool design though.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfpYi1s0ofk

[jakeroot]

YUMBLtv just designed a Michigan Left on Cities Skylines that doesn't require signalized U-turns.  The main issue i see with this design is that all U-turn traffic is dumped onto the left-most lane along the arterial making it difficult to safely merge to enter a close driveway on the right hand side of the road.  Very cool design though.

I've been building Michigan Lefts for years. Rarely signalize the U-turns or even the right turns:


Michigan U-turn Intersection by Jacob Root, on Flickr

edit: smaller road intersecting major road:


Michigan Left Intersection (2) by Jacob Root, on Flickr

[kernals12]

Arizona has taken my advice with many of Phoenix's fast growing suburbs planning to implement "Arizona Parkways" which have median u-turns.

[tradephoric]

Outside of Michigan, Grant Road in Tulsa, Arizona is the best example of a full fledged Median U-Turn corridor.  Most other Michigan Left locations are just spot treatments.

[jakeroot]

Outside of Michigan, Grant Road in Tulsa Tucson, Arizona is the best example of a full fledged Median U-Turn corridor.  Most other Michigan Left locations are just spot treatments.

ftfy

Which is honestly amazing, because Grant Road doesn't have more than a handful of Michigan Left intersections, assuming you discount all of the LI-RI-RO approaches.