CA 39 Reopening Project Scoping Meeting

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm skeptical that this project will not face major environmental backlash. Every group I've ever interacted with that is informed on this subject has all said that shouldn't be built because of the big horn sheep population. Personally I'm in favor of this project, but I'm unfamiliar with the big horn sheep in the area and wasn't even aware they were there. When it was open, I drove the Angeles crest Highway all the time and never saw one. I also hike the area quite frequently and the most I've seen are bobcats and other common wildlife that is easily spotted.

But it does seem like there is a way wildlife crossing incidences could be mitigated. It would just be more costly.

[cl94]

The full reopening alternative includes 5 wildlife crossing bridges. CDFW is on the record as opposing anything (even fixing for evac/emergency vehicle use), but LA County and its agencies are pushing strongly for something and fire concerns have a ton of sway in CA right now.

I will note that the full reopening passes CEQA and meets all modern CA requirements. Exempt from a lot of stuff because it's a reopening of an existing road instead of new construction.

[Max Rockatansky]

And that's the thing, there is a substantial political push to get 39 reopened.  If this was a new highway it probably wouldn't stand a chance.  Different story when it comes to something existing and still in the state inventory. 

[cl94]

And passing CEQA is the biggest obstacle right now. If the full CEQA evaluation shows that it either passes or is exempt, there go several avenues to challenge it. Okay CEQA plus political will means that the main concern is funding.

[pderocco]

What I'd like to know is how many bighorn sheep have been killed (or injured) on CA-39 4.5 miles below the closure, or on CA-2 4.5 miles on either side of CA-39. If those are acceptable numbers, why are they so alarmed about this particular piece of road? Is it because they see bighorn sheep on it from time to time? My answer would be they're on it because there aren't any cars on it. If the road construction crews showed up, the sheep would go somewhere else. They may not be geniuses, but they're not earthworms either.

[pderocco]

My understanding is that 39 used to function like Angeles Forest Highway does as a handy alternate through San Gabriel Mountains.  I'm understand that a lot of people north of the mountains would use it bypass Cajon Pass and San Bernardino.

Since both of these roads are south of the line generally running from Gaviota Pass to the Grapevine to Cajon Pass, it is proper to place a "the" before the route number being cited.  Thank you for your cooperation!         (Happy Friday!)

I always thought this locution was reserved for freeways. "The 405" is short for "The 405 freeway". Has anyone ever said, "Let's take the 1 up the coast"?

[Max Rockatansky]

My understanding is that 39 used to function like Angeles Forest Highway does as a handy alternate through San Gabriel Mountains.  I'm understand that a lot of people north of the mountains would use it bypass Cajon Pass and San Bernardino.

Since both of these roads are south of the line generally running from Gaviota Pass to the Grapevine to Cajon Pass, it is proper to place a "the" before the route number being cited.  Thank you for your cooperation!         (Happy Friday!)

I always thought this locution was reserved for freeways. "The 405" is short for "The 405 freeway". Has anyone ever said, "Let's take the 1 up the coast"?

No, they just incorrectly refer to the entirety of 1 as "PCH."

[heynow415]

My understanding is that 39 used to function like Angeles Forest Highway does as a handy alternate through San Gabriel Mountains.  I'm understand that a lot of people north of the mountains would use it bypass Cajon Pass and San Bernardino.

Since both of these roads are south of the line generally running from Gaviota Pass to the Grapevine to Cajon Pass, it is proper to place a "the" before the route number being cited.  Thank you for your cooperation!         (Happy Friday!)

I always thought this locution was reserved for freeways. "The 405" is short for "The 405 freeway". Has anyone ever said, "Let's take the 1 up the coast"?

No, they just incorrectly refer to the entirety of 1 as "PCH."

I've heard it/seen "the" used on SoCal non-freeway/expressway roads.  Highways with another real name, like PCH, are often called that instead of by their route number but others, like Ortega Hwy, seem to be referred to more often as "the 74" except maybe when you're actually in San Juan Capistrano.

[Plutonic Panda]

I've always kind of referred CA-1 FROM SOUTH ORANGE COUNTY TO SAN FRANCISCO AS THE PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY AS WELL.

[NE2]

I've always kind of referred CA-1 FROM SOUTH ORANGE COUNTY TO SAN FRANCISCO AS THE PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY AS WELL.

ROCK ON DUDE

[Quillz]

I've always kind of referred CA-1 FROM SOUTH ORANGE COUNTY TO SAN FRANCISCO AS THE PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY AS WELL.

"Cabrillo Highway" is pretty well established between Las Cruces and San Francisco. Makes sense, that was the original southern extent of CA-1. Historically, Pacific Coast Highway was strictly SoCal only and would have been associated with the original CA-3 and then later US-101A. There are some references to PCH in Pismo Beach, but that's all I've ever seen. If it's in use north of there, never seen it.

[Max Rockatansky]

Shoreline Highway is by far the most used name for 1 north of the Golden Gate Bridge.

[Plutonic Panda]

I've always kind of referred CA-1 FROM SOUTH ORANGE COUNTY TO SAN FRANCISCO AS THE PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY AS WELL.

"Cabrillo Highway" is pretty well established between Las Cruces and San Francisco. Makes sense, that was the original southern extent of CA-1. Historically, Pacific Coast Highway was strictly SoCal only and would have been associated with the original CA-3 and then later US-101A. There are some references to PCH in Pismo Beach, but that's all I've ever seen. If it's in use north of there, never seen it.

Interesting. I do recall saying Cabrillo highway used as that name?

[Plutonic Panda]

Shoreline Highway is by far the most used name for 1 north of the Golden Gate Bridge.

I need to get up and explore more of northern california.

[Quillz]

Shoreline Highway is by far the most used name for 1 north of the Golden Gate Bridge.

I need to get up and explore more of northern california.

There are basically three major coastal highways: Pacific Coast Highway, Cabrillo Highway, Shoreline Highway. They are nicely siloed between SoCal, Central Cali, and NorCal. Historically, CA-3 covered PCH, CA-1 covered the other two. It seems after 1964, Caltrans wanted to have a single number unify all three, and since CA-1 was well established and much better known than the short stint of CA-3, this was the reasoning as to why CA-1 was extended into SoCal. This also seems to have created the perception PCH refers to the entire stretch, when the historical quirk is PCH and CA-1 had no association prior to 1964.

And yes, I suggest you do. It's beautiful, the drive on CA-1 between CA-116 and US-101 is great. I love the NorCal beaches, they remind me a lot of Oregon in that they are rocky, rugged, foggy, etc. Glass Beach is a highlight for me, and of course there are some nice beaches in the Redwood Curtain, weather permitting.

[cahwyguy]

Historically, CA-3 covered PCH, CA-1 covered the other two.

Close. Sign Route 3 (to distinguish it from post-1964 Route 3) existed only from the start of state highway numbering until (I think) 1936, when US 101A was created. I'm not sure Sign Route 3 was ever signed in the field.

So, you had US 101A for the PCH portion, and Sign Route 1 for the Cabrillo Highway and Shoreline Highway portions.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm not aware of 1934 CA 3 ever being signed.  There is a map somewhere (I think of my CA 36 blog) which showed progress of signing State Sign Routes by late 1936.  The emphasis seemed on rural highways like CA 36.

[Quillz]

Historically, CA-3 covered PCH, CA-1 covered the other two.

Close. Sign Route 3 (to distinguish it from post-1964 Route 3) existed only from the start of state highway numbering until (I think) 1936, when US 101A was created. I'm not sure Sign Route 3 was ever signed in the field.

So, you had US 101A for the PCH portion, and Sign Route 1 for the Cabrillo Highway and Shoreline Highway portions.

I'm not sure of it being signed, either. But I was talking from a more strict "technical" sense, that route was CA-3 for a short while. I didn't mention 101A but I was aware of it. The larger point was the association with PCH = CA-1 is more recent than some people might realize. (Although at this point we're talking a half-century old association so I guess it has probably spent more time as part of CA-1 than not).

[Quillz]

I'm not aware of 1934 CA 3 ever being signed.  There is a map somewhere (I think of my CA 36 blog) which showed progress of signing State Sign Routes by late 1936.  The emphasis seemed on rural highways like CA 36.

This lack of signage might also explain why Caltrans did more frequent reshuffling in the earlier days. One of the more prominent cases I can think of was original CA-13 becoming the modern CA-17. That was most likely due to poor signage. I've also wondered how reshuffling would have worked in California if it was a state like Alaska where names are more often used than numbers. Seems in a setup like that, there would be more frequent renumbering.