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Author Topic: Interstate 269  (Read 317801 times)

NE2

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #550 on: December 18, 2017, 01:10:51 PM »

It will be interesting to see Picts of the I-22/269 interchange.
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #551 on: December 18, 2017, 03:16:48 PM »

It will be interesting to see Picts of the I-22/269 interchange.
You can see it live here....
https://www.mdottraffic.com/
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #552 on: December 18, 2017, 08:34:01 PM »

It will be interesting to see Picts of the I-22/269 interchange.


On occasion NE2 can be a bit snarky -- but that is fucking funny!  I'll bet he can access pictures of Celts as well!  :awesomeface: :awesomeface: :awesomeface:
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #553 on: December 20, 2017, 12:55:58 AM »

Some trivia:

I made the mistake of getting sucked into an edit war on the Wikipedia I-269 page...and due to a lack of clear answers accessible on the web / findable in the black hole that is TDOT's website, I send an email to TDOT asking about the current and future official designations of the highway between Collierville and Arlington.

The response back was that TDOT currently considers the highway to be SR 385, and that I-269 doesn't yet exist north of Collierville.  When the signing contract is complete, and work inspected and approved, at that point they'll issue a press release and (in their eyes) the highway will officially become I-269.

The responding engineer went on to mention that the SR 385 designation will be officially removed from TDOT's perspective from that stretch of highway at that point.  SR 385 will live on officially as two disconnected segments...at least until I-269 is extended, which probably won't happen until I-69 is built to Millington.

Figured I'd share, in case anyone was wondering.

(Annoyingly, this means I "lost" in the aforementioned edit war.  C'est la vie.)
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Scott5114

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #554 on: December 20, 2017, 04:05:53 PM »

So does that mean to TDOT that a highway designation is made official by what signs it bears? That seems weird.
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lordsutch

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #555 on: December 20, 2017, 04:38:15 PM »

I would assume this means TDOT has a general policy of only publicly using the signed interstate highway designations, which makes sense given the precedents of I-124 and I-69, both of which officially exist in TN according to AASHTO and FHWA but don't really show up in anything from TDOT, even the state highway maps where other "non-public" designations like the unsigned state route concurrencies are visible.
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #556 on: December 20, 2017, 05:42:53 PM »

Some trivia:

I made the mistake of getting sucked into an edit war on the Wikipedia I-269 page...and due to a lack of clear answers accessible on the web / findable in the black hole that is TDOT's website, I send an email to TDOT asking about the current and future official designations of the highway between Collierville and Arlington.

The response back was that TDOT currently considers the highway to be SR 385, and that I-269 doesn't yet exist north of Collierville.  When the signing contract is complete, and work inspected and approved, at that point they'll issue a press release and (in their eyes) the highway will officially become I-269.

The responding engineer went on to mention that the SR 385 designation will be officially removed from TDOT's perspective from that stretch of highway at that point.  SR 385 will live on officially as two disconnected segments...at least until I-269 is extended, which probably won't happen until I-69 is built to Millington.

Figured I'd share, in case anyone was wondering.

(Annoyingly, this means I "lost" in the aforementioned edit war.  C'est la vie.)
Imo, it's one of the dumbest things to have two separate 385's. They probably won't even change the mileage markers between us 70 and us 51. The exception would be to Co sign the road like Mississippi has done with 269, but it sounds like the plan is to eliminate it between Collier ville and Arlington. We won't see I 69 complete for decades in Tennessee, meaning it will stay that way. Another reason TDOT should sign over the entire stretch or give the northern future 269 another designation.
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lordsutch

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #557 on: December 21, 2017, 01:58:18 AM »

Imo, it's one of the dumbest things to have two separate 385's. They probably won't even change the mileage markers between us 70 and us 51. The exception would be to Co sign the road like Mississippi has done with 269, but it sounds like the plan is to eliminate it between Collier ville and Arlington. We won't see I 69 complete for decades in Tennessee, meaning it will stay that way. Another reason TDOT should sign over the entire stretch or give the northern future 269 another designation.

Not changing the mileage markers actually makes sense, since otherwise there'd be two sections of 385 with the same mile markers in the same county, which would be a recipe for disaster in emergency response situations. (As-is the mileage at least used to reset at least one place where 385 reentered Shelby County from Fayette County, although that may have been fixed when they installed the enhanced location signage a few years back.)

That said if it were still to lead to actual driver confusion the sensible thing to do would be what they should have done when they built Bill Morris Pkwy in the first place: start US 72 at I-240, truncating the unnecessary portion inside I-240, and have it follow current 385 to the unsigned TN 86 exit. East of there TDOT could just use the "to I-269/to US 72" trick for the mile or so that wouldn't be part of the rerouted US 72, as is currently used for TN 300.
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #558 on: December 21, 2017, 02:12:47 AM »



Not changing the mileage markers actually makes sense, since otherwise there'd be two sections of 385 with the same mile markers in the same county, which would be a recipe for disaster in emergency response situations.
[/quote]

What you said right there says enough and proves my point of how ridiculous it is. The confusion of having the same road in two totally different parts of the county is insane. There is no way there is any logic to it. Unless you keep 385/I-269 together until the entire route gets signed over. Yet TDOT has made it clear they will get rid of 385 between the southern leg of 385 and I-40/US 70 once that section is signed over. That's just insane. It's all I will comment on it, because it's a really bad decision by TDOT
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #559 on: December 21, 2017, 02:50:24 AM »

Imo, it's one of the dumbest things to have two separate 385's. They probably won't even change the mileage markers between us 70 and us 51. The exception would be to Co sign the road like Mississippi has done with 269, but it sounds like the plan is to eliminate it between Collier ville and Arlington. We won't see I 69 complete for decades in Tennessee, meaning it will stay that way. Another reason TDOT should sign over the entire stretch or give the northern future 269 another designation.

Not changing the mileage markers actually makes sense, since otherwise there'd be two sections of 385 with the same mile markers in the same county, which would be a recipe for disaster in emergency response situations. (As-is the mileage at least used to reset at least one place where 385 reentered Shelby County from Fayette County, although that may have been fixed when they installed the enhanced location signage a few years back.)

That said if it were still to lead to actual driver confusion the sensible thing to do would be what they should have done when they built Bill Morris Pkwy in the first place: start US 72 at I-240, truncating the unnecessary portion inside I-240, and have it follow current 385 to the unsigned TN 86 exit. East of there TDOT could just use the "to I-269/to US 72" trick for the mile or so that wouldn't be part of the rerouted US 72, as is currently used for TN 300.
The second part also makes a hell of a lot more sense than keeping two sections of 385 in one county. It would also make sense with the connection between Huntsville and Memphis. Yet i'm sure TDOT doesn't want to spend any more money to resign BIll Morris Pkwy.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #560 on: December 21, 2017, 10:40:03 AM »

I will reiterate that the sensible solution is to sign all of I-269 as such right now.  Then there is no problem with two TN 385's.

Yeah, yeah, "they don't know where I-69 will go on the north side of Memphis.."  Who cares?  That's literally decades from now unless someone magically makes money appear.  And if I-69 uses the north leg of the beltline, it's going to use the entire beltline, too, and the whole of I-269 will have to be re-signed anyway.  So the argument about prematurely signing the north leg as I-269 is moot.
Far simpler to have one continuous number for that entire outer loop and I-269 is a great number to use.

I hate this bullcrap where the loop freeway is only signed as a state highway or an odd 3di until it "goes somewhere".  That's dumb.  Because then you get into situations like Memphis where the loop freeway will change numbers for no good reason.  Or one like Raleigh where everyone got "used" to the number 540 and now they're stuck with it.  Or they're in a situation where every goddamn sign on a virtually new road has to be swapped out like in Fayetteville, NC.

I don't like strict adherence to the letter of the rules at the expense of the spirit of the rules.
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mwb1848

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #561 on: December 21, 2017, 12:21:11 PM »

I知 confused... does I-269 run from MS 305 to TN 385 or I-40?
I-269 is designated all the way to I-40; however, until TDOT gets off their asses and changes the signs, 269 ends at 385. In a perfect world, the designation and signage would extend all the way to US 51 in Millington.

Following a suggestion above, I checked in at MDOT's traffic advisory web site to get a live view of I-269 via traffic cams.

While there, I noticed that MDOT (perhaps inadvertently) weighs in on the end point of I-269. When I visited, the DMS on I-269 between MS 305 and Red Banks Road was displaying:

I-269
NOW OPEN
TO I-40 IN TN
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #562 on: December 22, 2017, 09:37:03 PM »

I知 confused... does I-269 run from MS 305 to TN 385 or I-40?
I-269 is designated all the way to I-40; however, until TDOT gets off their asses and changes the signs, 269 ends at 385. In a perfect world, the designation and signage would extend all the way to US 51 in Millington.

Following a suggestion above, I checked in at MDOT's traffic advisory web site to get a live view of I-269 via traffic cams.

While there, I noticed that MDOT (perhaps inadvertently) weighs in on the end point of I-269. When I visited, the DMS on I-269 between MS 305 and Red Banks Road was displaying:

I-269
NOW OPEN
TO I-40 IN TN

Makes sense -- MS has more to gain (via both present/future I-269 as well as I-22) than TN, so touting the yet-to-be-signed N-S TN segment of TN 385 as a functional I-269 gives the driver on either of the TN freeways a known-quantity destination in I-40. I'm surprised that there aren't I-40 trailblazers on WB I-22 at or near the 269 junction -- just as I'm pretty certain TDOT won't place I-22 trailblazers at the I-269/TN 385 interchange -- at least in the near term.  Unless more highway-oriented businesses deploy themselves along that N-S stretch, TN has little to gain by directing I-40 traffic to & from I-22. 
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #563 on: December 23, 2017, 02:11:09 PM »

I知 confused... does I-269 run from MS 305 to TN 385 or I-40?
I-269 is designated all the way to I-40; however, until TDOT gets off their asses and changes the signs, 269 ends at 385. In a perfect world, the designation and signage would extend all the way to US 51 in Millington.

Following a suggestion above, I checked in at MDOT's traffic advisory web site to get a live view of I-269 via traffic cams.

While there, I noticed that MDOT (perhaps inadvertently) weighs in on the end point of I-269. When I visited, the DMS on I-269 between MS 305 and Red Banks Road was displaying:

I-269
NOW OPEN
TO I-40 IN TN

Makes sense -- MS has more to gain (via both present/future I-269 as well as I-22) than TN, so touting the yet-to-be-signed N-S TN segment of TN 385 as a functional I-269 gives the driver on either of the TN freeways a known-quantity destination in I-40. I'm surprised that there aren't I-40 trailblazers on WB I-22 at or near the 269 junction -- just as I'm pretty certain TDOT won't place I-22 trailblazers at the I-269/TN 385 interchange -- at least in the near term.  Unless more highway-oriented businesses deploy themselves along that N-S stretch, TN has little to gain by directing I-40 traffic to & from I-22.
You hit the nail on the head. The only gain in Tennessee is a lot of transportation companies could move to the Collierville area. With I-269/385 junction having  a lot of land Collierville is zoning for it around that junction. Everything else is Mississippi's to gain. Obviously a ton of traffic will travel I-269 between I-55 and I-22. I-22 is the gateway from the midwest and middle America into the southeast. When that section of I-269 is complete, there will be lots of traffic that wont have to go through non highway city traffic in Memphis anymore. I don't expect much retaill development on I-269 between I-22 and I-40. I-269 between I-55 and I-22 would be another story. Honestly TDOT could probably care less about signing the Tennessee section over, if they didn't have to do so.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #564 on: December 23, 2017, 08:24:15 PM »

I clinched I-269 today, traveling from I-40 around to MS 305.

I've spent way too much time in New England.  Nice big, broad right of way with not much in the way of development...just looked odd.  But nice.

On 385, I saw no signs of any resigning work, despite the lane closure notice issued last week by TDOT.  Even the god-awful APL on southbound 385 at the 269/385 interchange is unchanged ("Local Traffic".)

I did, however, see some very well-done greenout work by MDOT's contractor, blanking out control cities on pull-through signs and future destinations on mileage signs, presumably which will be revealed with the last section opens.
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silverback1065

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #565 on: December 24, 2017, 12:39:03 AM »

I知 confused... does I-269 run from MS 305 to TN 385 or I-40?
I-269 is designated all the way to I-40; however, until TDOT gets off their asses and changes the signs, 269 ends at 385. In a perfect world, the designation and signage would extend all the way to US 51 in Millington.



Following a suggestion above, I checked in at MDOT's traffic advisory web site to get a live view of I-269 via traffic cams.

While there, I noticed that MDOT (perhaps inadvertently) weighs in on the end point of I-269. When I visited, the DMS on I-269 between MS 305 and Red Banks Road was displaying:

I-269
NOW OPEN
TO I-40 IN TN

Makes sense -- MS has more to gain (via both present/future I-269 as well as I-22) than TN, so touting the yet-to-be-signed N-S TN segment of TN 385 as a functional I-269 gives the driver on either of the TN freeways a known-quantity destination in I-40. I'm surprised that there aren't I-40 trailblazers on WB I-22 at or near the 269 junction -- just as I'm pretty certain TDOT won't place I-22 trailblazers at the I-269/TN 385 interchange -- at least in the near term.  Unless more highway-oriented businesses deploy themselves along that N-S stretch, TN has little to gain by directing I-40 traffic to & from I-22.
You hit the nail on the head. The only gain in Tennessee is a lot of transportation companies could move to the Collierville area. With I-269/385 junction having  a lot of land Collierville is zoning for it around that junction. Everything else is Mississippi's to gain. Obviously a ton of traffic will travel I-269 between I-55 and I-22. I-22 is the gateway from the midwest and middle America into the southeast. When that section of I-269 is complete, there will be lots of traffic that wont have to go through non highway city traffic in Memphis anymore. I don't expect much retaill development on I-269 between I-22 and I-40. I-269 between I-55 and I-22 would be another story. Honestly TDOT could probably care less about signing the Tennessee section over, if they didn't have to do so.

gateway from the midwest to the southeast is a bit of a stretch
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #566 on: December 24, 2017, 01:07:20 AM »

gateway from the midwest to the southeast is a bit of a stretch

I-22 is certainly not the only -- or even main -- gateway from the Midwest to the Deep South -- but it does function as a conduit from the southern part of the Midwest, courtesy of I-40 west of Memphis.  I-24 is more suited to handle traffic from the upper Midwest to the South, since it taps traffic from I-64 and I-70 and points north the way that I-22 can't do efficiently (unless a side trip to Memphis is involved!).  But between them, the "twenties" seem to have that role covered quite well!
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #567 on: December 24, 2017, 02:49:35 AM »

I知 confused... does I-269 run from MS 305 to TN 385 or I-40?
I-269 is designated all the way to I-40; however, until TDOT gets off their asses and changes the signs, 269 ends at 385. In a perfect world, the designation and signage would extend all the way to US 51 in Millington.



Following a suggestion above, I checked in at MDOT's traffic advisory web site to get a live view of I-269 via traffic cams.

While there, I noticed that MDOT (perhaps inadvertently) weighs in on the end point of I-269. When I visited, the DMS on I-269 between MS 305 and Red Banks Road was displaying:

I-269
NOW OPEN
TO I-40 IN TN

Makes sense -- MS has more to gain (via both present/future I-269 as well as I-22) than TN, so touting the yet-to-be-signed N-S TN segment of TN 385 as a functional I-269 gives the driver on either of the TN freeways a known-quantity destination in I-40. I'm surprised that there aren't I-40 trailblazers on WB I-22 at or near the 269 junction -- just as I'm pretty certain TDOT won't place I-22 trailblazers at the I-269/TN 385 interchange -- at least in the near term.  Unless more highway-oriented businesses deploy themselves along that N-S stretch, TN has little to gain by directing I-40 traffic to & from I-22.
You hit the nail on the head. The only gain in Tennessee is a lot of transportation companies could move to the Collierville area. With I-269/385 junction having  a lot of land Collierville is zoning for it around that junction. Everything else is Mississippi's to gain. Obviously a ton of traffic will travel I-269 between I-55 and I-22. I-22 is the gateway from the midwest and middle America into the southeast. When that section of I-269 is complete, there will be lots of traffic that wont have to go through non highway city traffic in Memphis anymore. I don't expect much retaill development on I-269 between I-22 and I-40. I-269 between I-55 and I-22 would be another story. Honestly TDOT could probably care less about signing the Tennessee section over, if they didn't have to do so.

gateway from the midwest to the southeast is a bit of a stretch
Is it? Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Arkansas, Oklahoma wanting to get into Birmingham, Atlanta, Florida beaches, exc. Do the google routing.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #568 on: December 27, 2017, 08:03:32 AM »

^ Two of the five states you mention are not "Midwest" by most definitions.  Arkansas in particular is far more Southern than Midwestern.
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #569 on: December 27, 2017, 02:24:16 PM »

^ Two of the five states you mention are not "Midwest" by most definitions.  Arkansas in particular is far more Southern than Midwestern.
For the love of God, it's in the middle of the freaking country. Get a map. You have I-40 that runs all the way from the Pacific and other states in the middle of the country. Call it what you want, but the main pipeline into the southeastern US will be I-22.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #570 on: December 27, 2017, 03:41:05 PM »

^ Two of the five states you mention are not "Midwest" by most definitions.  Arkansas in particular is far more Southern than Midwestern.
For the love of God, it's in the middle of the freaking country. Get a map. You have I-40 that runs all the way from the Pacific and other states in the middle of the country. Call it what you want, but the main pipeline into the southeastern US will be I-22.

Best bet here is to consider anything south of I-70 to be territory that would be likely to cross the Mississippi River near Memphis and then use I-22 toward Birmingham, Atlanta, and Florida points; north of there -- if staying on Interstates -- would likely cross the river in metro St. Louis and then find their way to I-24.  The paucity of river crossings between Memphis and St. Louis (save I-57, which doesn't benefit travelers to and from the Southeast) tends to limit the river crossing location to the two cities unless a more adventurous traveler elects to use conventional roads (hello, Cairo!).  But when considering Interstate corridors from the entire N-W Midwest "swath", 22 and 24 seem to have most of the bases covered.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #571 on: December 27, 2017, 06:19:01 PM »

A couple of points:

1. TDOT has applied for the I-269 designation and plans to sign it; it certainly didn't have to do either thing, although it was something of a compromise with Mississippi so both states got what they wanted from I-69 SIU 10.

2. I-269 between Collierville and Arlington is unlikely to see much development for environmental reasons (the area is important for recharging the Memphis aquifer) and poor east-west connectivity that is unlikely to ever be addressed. However, there's already a lot of industrial and commercial development going into Marshall County near I-269, due in part to the proximity of the huge Norfolk Southern intermodal facility east of Piperton, as well as access to I-22 and US 72 to Birmingham and Huntsville. Byhalia is also well-positioned to develop a lot more residential and retail along the lines of Olive Branch.

3. I think we radically overestimate how much traffic on the Interstate system is through traffic. Certainly long-haul trucking is important, and family vacations are a thing, but most of what travel you see is intraregional - I-22 is much more frequented by people going from Tupelo or New Albany or Holly Springs to go to Memphis or vice versa that it is for journeys between Little Rock and Atlanta - at that distance, business travelers are flying and most shipments would go by rail or air. The impact of I-269 on traffic levels on Lamar, even when complete, will likely be imperceptible. (Unfortunately, a review of TDOT's plans for widening US 78 to 6 lanes from the state line past the Holmes Road interchange suggest that TDOT still plans to leave in place the existing at-grade signalized intersections both north and south of Holmes Road.)

On the last point, look at the maps here, specifically this figure from BTS. US 49 south of Jackson was actually carrying substantially more freight than I-22 in 2012; anecdotally, I-22 truck traffic doesn't seem that heavy even today (I regularly drive I-16 southeast of Macon and despite its reputation as a low-traffic interstate even it has more truck traffic on it than I usually see on I-22), and I'm not sure even the I-55 linkup will add that much more.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #572 on: December 28, 2017, 04:57:28 AM »

I think we radically overestimate how much traffic on the Interstate system is through traffic. Certainly long-haul trucking is important, and family vacations are a thing, but most of what travel you see is intraregional - I-22 is much more frequented by people going from Tupelo or New Albany or Holly Springs to go to Memphis or vice versa that it is for journeys between Little Rock and Atlanta - at that distance, business travelers are flying and most shipments would go by rail or air. The impact of I-269 on traffic levels on Lamar, even when complete, will likely be imperceptible.
On the last point, look at the maps here, specifically this figure from BTS. US 49 south of Jackson was actually carrying substantially more freight than I-22 in 2012; anecdotally, I-22 truck traffic doesn't seem that heavy even today (I regularly drive I-16 southeast of Macon and despite its reputation as a low-traffic interstate even it has more truck traffic on it than I usually see on I-22), and I'm not sure even the I-55 linkup will add that much more.

Despite the perception that trunk Interstates are there primarily to facilitate interregional travel, data repeatedly shows that there are significantly higher-traffic "nodes" extending out from the more densely populated areas that provide much of the aggregate traffic load for any given route.  In many cases a look at usage of many Interstates demonstrates that one is not simply looking at one road or even one corridor -- but an effective series of "SIU's" linked together by the lesser-utilized segments.  In the case of I-22, one such node is the Olive Branch/Byhalia area, where much of the traffic is simply folks getting on one exit and getting off a few exits later -- it's a convenient roadway for local usage; the fact that it's a full-fledged trunk Interstate is simply "icing on the cake", so to speak.  Once into the woods, things thin out a bit until around New Albany-Tupelo, which provides an additional traffic node (enhanced in the last few years by the Toyota plant near MS 9 west of Tupelo).  That too thins out toward the Alabama state line; with a bit of sparsity before the penultimate node (Winfield-Jasper) occurs, with the resultant dominance of local traffic; that node blends with the final Birmingham segment.  The fact that there is a modicum of through traffic doesn't affect the fact that right now I-22 functions as much as a chain of local "SIU's" as a single interregional entity. 

But that route is still very much in its teething stages; except for the Toyota plant, which ironically ships most of its product out by rail (although trucks carrying "just-in-time" parts to the facility do account for a good piece of I-22 commercial traffic), commercial development along the 205-mile overall corridor just hasn't happened to date.  What intrinsic Birmingham-Memphis truck traffic there is uses it, of course -- just as they would have used US 78 before the freeway was constructed; it's the logical routing.  But now that it connects to the rest of the Interstate network (albeit convolutedly at its west end for the time being), one might expect gradual increases in overall usage as interregional use expands.  However, local traffic will also increase, particularly along "linear" nodes strung out with I-22 as the focal point -- such as the Winfield/Jasper segment mentioned earlier.  Expect localized traffic to dominate the overall picture on this relatively new corridor until interregional traffic patterns begin shifting to take advantage of its presence -- which should take at least another 10 years or so; as connections (I-269 west to I-55/69) are made and the corridor segments beyond the I-22 connection itself (including the long-delayed Crump Blvd. improvement on I-55 itself), I-22 will present itself as a logical option in the SE>NW regional picture.  Do note that the commercial-traffic map cited above is based upon the facility prior to its MS improvements and also prior to its formal designation (likely figures from 2010 or earlier).   
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Brooks

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Interstate 269
« Reply #573 on: January 27, 2018, 12:10:26 AM »

I-269 mile marker signs are up near the SR-193 exit.
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GreenLanternCorps

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #574 on: January 27, 2018, 05:29:34 PM »

I-269 mile marker signs are up near the SR-193 exit.

Are they turned to the side like Missouri did with I-49, or are they mounted normally?
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