I-73 in VA

Started by 74/171FAN, June 04, 2009, 07:50:37 PM

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froggie

^ Don't hold your breath.  Not when VDOT's been trying to find money to widen I-81 for 20 years (let alone other needed major projects across the state).


Strider

Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 06:52:54 PM
^ Don't hold your breath.  Not when VDOT's been trying to find money to widen I-81 for 20 years (let alone other needed major projects across the state).

I wouldn't. I do know it is coming. If VDOT cannot find money to widen I-81 for 20 years.. we both know why.

froggie

And I would say you're overly optimistic.  I-73 is so far down the totem pole that your grandchildren will be wondering when it'll be built...

Beltway

Quote from: Strider on June 22, 2017, 06:35:23 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
There will be major upgrades to I-581 and the Martinsville Bypass, but I have also wondered why it would cost more than $25 to $30 million per mile on average.  The section just south of VA-419 will be complex but for only about 3 miles.
To be honest with you, other than upgrading the bridges that I-581 crosses in Downtown Roanoke just north of VA 24 exit, and the I-81/I-581 interchange, every section on I-581 is already up to interstate standards and don't need major upgrades. The US 58 Martinsville Bypass is another story though.. no shoulders, narrow lanes.. I can see for obvious reasons it needs a major upgrade.

I think the terrain might have something to do but it shouldn't cost more than $30 million per mile.

What if they decide that I-581 and the Southwest Expressway need to be widened to 8 lanes?  That would definitely cost some big dollars.
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Mapmikey

Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: Strider on June 22, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 21, 2017, 04:45:23 PM
In the case of VA I-73, there may only be two segments that would logically be built as SIU, with the dividing line being where I-73 touches US-220 about 2 miles north of the Franklin/Henry county line.
http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/Salem/I-73_Map_December_2012.jpg

A third segment might be the extension of the US-220 freeway from VA-419 southward thru the urban area for about 3 miles, that would have major immediate benefits.

Traffic warrants building this highway, as AADTs are about 12,000 south of Martinsville, about 16,000 between Martinsville and Rocky Mount, and about 24,000 on the rural sections north of Rocky Mount.  Even though US-220 is a 4-lane divided highway with town bypasses, traffic will grow over the next 20 years to where an Interstate highway would be warranted, and this would be part of the I-73 corridor between I-40 at Greensboro, NC and I-81 at Roanoke, VA.

The problem is the cost, I can't see where they are going to obtain $4 billion for building that 70 miles of highway.
My question is this: How in the world is it costing $4 billion for just 63 miles of unbuilt highway (not including I-581 and the US 58 Martinsville bypass in which I-73 will be using). I find that cost a full of crap.

There will be major upgrades to I-581 and the Martinsville Bypass, but I have also wondered why it would cost more than $25 to $30 million per mile on average.  The section just south of VA-419 will be complex but for only about 3 miles.

Since no one has pointed out the obvious, I will.  There is an actual mountain that has to be crossed on new alignment.  The crossing will be roughly where SR 657 used to cross the mountain at Crowell Gap (~1700 ft) just southeast of Roanoke

A second smaller mountain with 1600 ft elevation is skirted closer to Martinsville.

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 06:52:54 PM
^ Don't hold your breath.  Not when VDOT's been trying to find money to widen I-81 for 20 years (let alone other needed major projects across the state).

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Beltway

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 22, 2017, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
There will be major upgrades to I-581 and the Martinsville Bypass, but I have also wondered why it would cost more than $25 to $30 million per mile on average.  The section just south of VA-419 will be complex but for only about 3 miles.
Since no one has pointed out the obvious, I will.  There is an actual mountain that has to be crossed on new alignment.  The crossing will be roughly where SR 657 used to cross the mountain at Crowell Gap (~1700 ft) just southeast of Roanoke

A second smaller mountain with 1600 ft elevation is skirted closer to Martinsville.

Mountains bow before VDOT.  Afton Mountain, North Mountain, Fancy Gap, Big Walker Mountain, East River Mountain.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

froggie

Mountains may bow, but they only roll over after filling them with green(backs)...

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 08:24:19 PM
Mountains may bow, but they only roll over after filling them with green(backs)...

Dynamite and dump trucks.  Scraper pans and front-end loaders.  It's looks spectacular but it is not as hard as it looks.

Building (and widening) I-95 thru Georgia was probably more complex and expensive than I-80 across Pennsylvania, given all those wetlands and river crossings.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

74/171FAN

Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 06:52:54 PM
^ Don't hold your breath.  Not when VDOT's been trying to find money to widen I-81 for 20 years (let alone other needed major projects across the state).

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

OT, though your figure would at minimum have to go to I-78 (about 22 miles past Harrisburg). 
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

hbelkins

Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 07:38:05 PM
And I would say you're overly optimistic.  I-73 is so far down the totem pole that your grandchildren will be wondering when it'll be built...

Hopefully, no one's grandchildren will ever see it built, and they'll be using US 220 which is perfectly fine for moving traffic between Roanoke and Martinsville.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Beltway

Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 22, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 06:52:54 PM
^ Don't hold your breath.  Not when VDOT's been trying to find money to widen I-81 for 20 years (let alone other needed major projects across the state).
I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.
OT, though your figure would at minimum have to go to I-78 (about 22 miles past Harrisburg). 

Actually, yes.  Volume substantially drops on I-81 north of I-78.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Strider

Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2017, 07:38:05 PM
And I would say you're overly optimistic.  I-73 is so far down the totem pole that your grandchildren will be wondering when it'll be built...


I have a faith. Learn how to use it one day. Thanks for your judgment.

Strider

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 22, 2017, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: Strider on June 22, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on June 21, 2017, 04:45:23 PM
In the case of VA I-73, there may only be two segments that would logically be built as SIU, with the dividing line being where I-73 touches US-220 about 2 miles north of the Franklin/Henry county line.
http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/Salem/I-73_Map_December_2012.jpg

A third segment might be the extension of the US-220 freeway from VA-419 southward thru the urban area for about 3 miles, that would have major immediate benefits.

Traffic warrants building this highway, as AADTs are about 12,000 south of Martinsville, about 16,000 between Martinsville and Rocky Mount, and about 24,000 on the rural sections north of Rocky Mount.  Even though US-220 is a 4-lane divided highway with town bypasses, traffic will grow over the next 20 years to where an Interstate highway would be warranted, and this would be part of the I-73 corridor between I-40 at Greensboro, NC and I-81 at Roanoke, VA.

The problem is the cost, I can't see where they are going to obtain $4 billion for building that 70 miles of highway.
My question is this: How in the world is it costing $4 billion for just 63 miles of unbuilt highway (not including I-581 and the US 58 Martinsville bypass in which I-73 will be using). I find that cost a full of crap.

There will be major upgrades to I-581 and the Martinsville Bypass, but I have also wondered why it would cost more than $25 to $30 million per mile on average.  The section just south of VA-419 will be complex but for only about 3 miles.

Since no one has pointed out the obvious, I will.  There is an actual mountain that has to be crossed on new alignment.  The crossing will be roughly where SR 657 used to cross the mountain at Crowell Gap (~1700 ft) just southeast of Roanoke

A second smaller mountain with 1600 ft elevation is skirted closer to Martinsville.


Yeah i'm aware of the mountains on or close proximity to US 220, I didn't know how many ft these mountains are... Thank you for pointing them out to me, honestly. I have always wondered. Appreciate you messaging on here.

VTGoose

Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

The inadequacy of I-81 was recognized years ago. There were even multi-state meetings to discuss the growing problem, but so far only West Virginia has been actively working to add lanes. VDOT started gung-ho with the widening through Bristol but has pretty much ignored I-81 since then. There are some projects that were spot-fixes (adding a lane southbound up Christiansburg Mountain and near Lexington) and some bridge replacements have included space for a future third lane. Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Winchester are sorely in need of improvements but as long as the General Assembly is controlled by tax-adverse republicans not much will happen.

Bruce in Blacksburg
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

cpzilliacus

#290
Quote from: VTGoose on June 23, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

The inadequacy of I-81 was recognized years ago. There were even multi-state meetings to discuss the growing problem, but so far only West Virginia has been actively working to add lanes. VDOT started gung-ho with the widening through Bristol but has pretty much ignored I-81 since then. There are some projects that were spot-fixes (adding a lane southbound up Christiansburg Mountain and near Lexington) and some bridge replacements have included space for a future third lane. Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Winchester are sorely in need of improvements but as long as the General Assembly is controlled by tax-adverse republicans not much will happen.

Maryland is widening its (admittedly  very short) part of I-81 now, much  to the rage of some of the state's "spend all motor fuel tax money on mass transit instead" crowd. 

It's an entirely different matter in the  Commonwealth, what with there being better than 320 miles of I-81 to deal with. 

I-81 across Virginia needs to be 6 lanes (at a minimum), in spite of opposition from some of the usual-suspect NIMBY and anti-highway  groups (and where it is now 6 lanes, the improvement is rather obvious).

I hope that unworkable gimmicks like massive fines on bad drivers and truck-only toll lanes (remember Star Solutions?) can be avoided, though tolls on all I-81 traffic ought to generate enough revenue to allow bonds to finance widening and interchange reconstruction where needed, if the Virginia general assembly remains opposed to increasing statewide motor fuel taxes enough to cover this and other needed widenings.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

I'm not convinced that ALL of I-81 in Virginia needs to be 6 lanes, but I'll agree that a good chunk would be useful as such.

I may do a detailed traffic look at the I-81 corridor, much as I did a few months ago with I-95.

Jmiles32

Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: VTGoose on June 23, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

The inadequacy of I-81 was recognized years ago. There were even multi-state meetings to discuss the growing problem, but so far only West Virginia has been actively working to add lanes. VDOT started gung-ho with the widening through Bristol but has pretty much ignored I-81 since then. There are some projects that were spot-fixes (adding a lane southbound up Christiansburg Mountain and near Lexington) and some bridge replacements have included space for a future third lane. Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Winchester are sorely in need of improvements but as long as the General Assembly is controlled by tax-adverse republicans not much will happen.

I-81 across Virginia needs to be 6 lanes (at a minimum), in spite of opposition from some of the usual-suspect NIMBY and anti-highway  groups (and where it is now 6 lanes, the improvement is rather obvious).

I hope that unworkable gimmicks like massive fines on bad drivers and truck-only toll lanes (remember Star Solutions?) can be avoided, though tolls on all I-81 traffic ought to generate enough revenue to allow bonds to finance widening and interchange reconstruction where needed, if the Virginia general assembly remains opposed to increasing statewide motor fuel taxes enough to cover this and other needed widenings.
Agreed^
It seems like the only hope for finding the money to widen I-81 and keep it toll free in Virginia rests in the hands of the Feds, as Governor McAuliffe filed a funding request for improving I-81 earlier this year through the existing federal highway spending program. Apparently this is separate from the 8 potential infrastructure projects he sent to the Trump administration also earlier this year.

Relating to I-73, if VDOT wants to show that they are actually serious about one day building I-73 and put more pressure on folks in Richmond, then I think they should if possible re-designate I-581 and the rest of the US-220 freeway(upgraded to interstate standards) into I-73. However overall as much as I'd like to see it be built in Virginia ASAP, IMHO the current needs of I-81 definitely triumph and I would rather see that be fixed first.
Aspiring Transportation Planner at Virginia Tech. Go Hokies!

roadman65

It would be nice to see I-73 at least be a Roanoke to Myrtle Beach Interstate, but the needs of the state come first. I am not a Virginian, so I do not know what the infrastructure is for highways.  With this being stated, other needed projects on existing roads come first especially if US 220 can really handle the needs of transporting people and commerce between Roanoke and the Triad.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on June 23, 2017, 11:25:45 AM
I'm not convinced that ALL of I-81 in Virginia needs to be 6 lanes, but I'll agree that a good chunk would be useful as such.

I may do a detailed traffic look at the I-81 corridor, much as I did a few months ago with I-95.

I have not been on I-81 south  of Lexington for many years, but north of the I-64 west interchange to the West Virginia border it needs to be 6 or maybe 8 lanes.

I have seen road videos of I-81 around Bristol, where apparently at least some of it is already 6 lanes. 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Mapmikey

#295
Quote from: VTGoose on June 23, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

The inadequacy of I-81 was recognized years ago. There were even multi-state meetings to discuss the growing problem, but so far only West Virginia has been actively working to add lanes. VDOT started gung-ho with the widening through Bristol but has pretty much ignored I-81 since then. There are some projects that were spot-fixes (adding a lane southbound up Christiansburg Mountain and near Lexington) and some bridge replacements have included space for a future third lane. Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Winchester are sorely in need of improvements but as long as the General Assembly is controlled by tax-adverse republicans not much will happen.

Bruce in Blacksburg


The newly released 6-yr plan has these I-81 projects funded in some way:

Rebuilding Exit 14, VA 140 (already under construction)
Add full transition lane between I-77 (Exit 72) and US 11 (Exit 73)
Rebuilding Exit 17 (US 58 ALT/VA 75)
Improving Exit 19 (US 11-58)
Replace New River Br on I-81 NB with no additional capacity beyond having a wider shoulder
Auxiliary lanes added between Exit 141 (VA 419) and Exit 143 (I-581/US 220)
Rebuilding Exit 150, US 11-220/VA 220 ALT (already under construction)
Rebuilding Exit 310, VA 37 (already under construction)

Everything else is minor stuff like ramp modifications and smaller bridge projects.  Not much in the way of true added capacity to I-81 in the next 6 years' plan.

The Exit 310 project noted that traffic is expected to exceed 76k NB and 85k SB at that location by 2035...

LM117

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 23, 2017, 06:30:05 PMNot much in the way of true added capacity to I-81 in the next 6 years' plan.

I'm shocked. :rolleyes:
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on June 23, 2017, 11:25:45 AM
I'm not convinced that ALL of I-81 in Virginia needs to be 6 lanes, but I'll agree that a good chunk would be useful as such.

I may do a detailed traffic look at the I-81 corridor, much as I did a few months ago with I-95.

The segment between I-77 and Pulaski is probably the only one with low enough volume to remain at 4 lanes.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

codyg1985

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 23, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on June 23, 2017, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 22, 2017, 08:20:14 PM

I saw some figures that nearly all the rural sections of I-81 will be over 60,000 AADT by 2035.  That is only 18 years away (don't laugh at the number, I worked for DOTs for 43 years!), and they are going to HAVE TO find funding to widen I-81 all the way from near Knoxville, TN to Harrisburg, PA.

The inadequacy of I-81 was recognized years ago. There were even multi-state meetings to discuss the growing problem, but so far only West Virginia has been actively working to add lanes. VDOT started gung-ho with the widening through Bristol but has pretty much ignored I-81 since then. There are some projects that were spot-fixes (adding a lane southbound up Christiansburg Mountain and near Lexington) and some bridge replacements have included space for a future third lane. Roanoke, Harrisonburg, and Winchester are sorely in need of improvements but as long as the General Assembly is controlled by tax-adverse republicans not much will happen.

Bruce in Blacksburg


The newly released 6-yr plan has these I-81 projects funded in some way:

Rebuilding Exit 14, VA 140 (already under construction)
Add full transition lane between I-77 (Exit 72) and US 11 (Exit 73)
Rebuilding Exit 17 (US 58 ALT/VA 75)
Improving Exit 19 (US 11-58)
Replace New River Br on I-81 NB with no additional capacity beyond having a wider shoulder
Auxiliary lanes added between Exit 141 (VA 419) and Exit 143 (I-581/US 220)
Rebuilding Exit 150, US 11-220/VA 220 ALT (already under construction)
Rebuilding Exit 310, VA 37 (already under construction)

Everything else is minor stuff like ramp modifications and smaller bridge projects.  Not much in the way of true added capacity to I-81 in the next 6 years' plan.

The Exit 310 project noted that traffic is expected to exceed 76k NB and 85k SB at that location by 2035...


I know this is getting OT for this thread, but I am honestly surprised that there is very little to be seen in capacity improvements planned for I-81. There are decent sized cities along I-81 which would benefit. I guess there are many other needs in Northern Virginia, Richmond, and the area around Norfolk.
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

LM117

#299
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 24, 2017, 09:33:47 AMI know this is getting OT for this thread, but I am honestly surprised that there is very little to be seen in capacity improvements planned for I-81. There are decent sized cities along I-81 which would benefit. I guess there are many other needs in Northern Virginia, Richmond, and the area around Norfolk.

Southwest VA is pretty far down on the political totem pole, so it's not surprising that needs in that area often go neglected in favor of those three metro areas, especially NoVA. The three metros certainly have needs, but they've been mostly addressed or currently being addressed, whether in the planning stages or under construction. Meanwhile, I-81 and SW VA remains largely ignored with a few bread crumbs thrown their way.

I knew he wouldn't win the GOP gubernatorial nomination, but things like this was a big reason I liked Frank Wagner. He was the only candidate that not only addressed the three metros, but he realized that there was more to the state than the three metros and addressed transportation needs there as well. But that ship has sailed and the status quo continues... :banghead:
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette



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