PA Turnpike News

[iBallasticwolf2]

How does one notify Google Maps of errors?

ixnay

In the modern Google maps there is a little pullout menu you can find at the far left side of the search bar. From there you can find a "Report a Data problem" button and that will let you report an error.

[cpzilliacus]

Another related-question would be: what's the percentage of GPS/navigation units out there that are legacy types (Garmin, Tom-Tom, etc.) vs. Google/Waze or Apple?  My guess would be the former for the simple reasoning that such has been on the market longer than the latter.

I run TomTom's software and map data files on my tablet computer (have never used a stand-alone TomTom GPS unit).  Those are updated by TomTom on a regular basis, but unlike Google, they do not update for relatively short-term changes (like the I-495 bridge closure in Delaware).

[jeffandnicole]

I did test it before posting  ...

King of Prussia Mall to Lake Harmony, PA

Edit -- funny, looking at the map close-in, they haven't even added the fact it is a full interchange, only showing northbound exit and southbound entry...

For grins & giggles, using Google Maps, I tried using a Scranton to PA 903 (just south of the new interchange) trip and the directions would not allow using the new interchange.  Such more than proves my earlier point regarding GPS systems either not updating at all nor completely providing the updated info. when conditions change.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a secret that the interchange was opening.

True, but the exact opening date may not have been known too far in advance; and even if a target opening date was set in advance, such can be subject to change at the last minute.

Programs - especially those dealing with traffic - are set to automatically adjust their directions once an interchange or highway opens.

Not necessarily, see the above-examples regarding the US 202 Parkway (after being open for a few months) and the fore-mentioned mock itinerary from Scranton to the new PA 903 interchange.

Very similar to when a highway is closed, such as when the I-495 overpass in Wilmington experienced an emergency shutdown last summer.  Within about 2 days, Google practically wiped that portion of 495 off the map, and anyone looking up directions would have been routed another way.

The reasons for the Google's (& others') swift actions with the I-495 closure were:

1.  It was an emergency/safety-related closure.
2.  The road in question carries local as well as interstate (little i) traffic; it's a common pass-through route for out-of-state drivers.
3.  The highway's closure (& the reasons for it) were well publicized throughout the media.

When PA 23 (Valley Forge Road) at the Pickering Dam bridge was recently closed for a replacement project.  MapQuest (IIRC, MQ & Tom-Tom share the same info.) overcompensated the bridge closure to a point that when a friend of mine tried to get a set of directions from Delaware County to a conference center along PA 23 located east of the bridge (the closure should not have impacted the routing); he got a bunch of unnecessary twists & turns. 

In addtion and adding insult to injury, MQ ignored the destination and routed the itinerary onto a residence located at the end of a nearby dead-end road.  Something went clearly wrong with MQ (not sure if such has since been corrected).

When I read the directions (which were intended to be distributed for others to follow) and I tried to unsuccessfully force/alter the MQ routing but it wouldn't take.  I tried Bing Maps with the same origin & destination and got what I expected (straight-forward routing with no bridge-closure-related impacts).  I sent my friend the corrected directions and he distributed such to others and nobody (that had the corrected directions) got lost.

I guess the moral here is that there's still a human element involved regarding GPS/Map updates.  They don't just change automatically because of an opening or closure; somebody has to be programing/updating the info. or least checking/verifying such.  The partial-info. (via Google) for the PA 903 interchange and the MapQuest over-restriction for the PA 23 Pickering Dam bridge closure are examples of such glitches.

Ok, then let's say it another way: the interchange opened two weeks ago.  It's not on anyone's maps. It wouldn't be in driving directions printed from the internet. I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).  Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?

[PHLBOS]

I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).

Since this interchange is E-ZPass Only; it would not be printed on toll tickets at all.  The same is true for the other three E-ZPass only interchanges (PA 29, PA 132 & Virginia Drive). 

Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?

The article doesn't specifically mention how many accidental users blame GPS' for using this particular interchange (PA 903).  It seems to, in essense, cover all of the E-ZPass Only interchanges for GPS-related unauthorized uses.  The other three E-ZPass Only interchanges have been open longer and have had been since updated into GPS mapping and data systems (note: the Virginia Drive interchange to/from I-276 West predated GPS systems and was already included).

Based on Flyer78's observations; Google has indeed included a portion of the PA 903 interchange in short order but not the rest (to & from points north).  One has to wonder had Google did the opposite (included the to/from access ramps from the north but not those to/from the south); would the number of GPS-related unauthorized usages for this interchange occurred at all?  It's a reasonable assumption that most of the traffic using this interchange is northbound exiting/southbound entering.

[cpzilliacus]

Ok, then let's say it another way: the interchange opened two weeks ago.  It's not on anyone's maps. It wouldn't be in driving directions printed from the internet. I wouldn't think it would be on the toll tickets (not that many people can read them anyway).  Anyone approaching the interchange and not from the area presumably wouldn't know the interchange exists. Among the info presented is that big "EZ Pass Tagholders Only" yellow warning message. Why would people just randomly use the interchange then?

It will be on TomTom's map the next time they update.

I sent them a message suggesting they may want to include a warning about use of this interchange for reasons stated above.

[cpzilliacus]

BucksLocalNews.com: Pennsylvania Turnpike okays rates for Delaware River bridge electronic toll; changes paving way for direct connection with I-95

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) has approved toll rates for a cashless, nonstop tolling point for westbound motorists crossing the Delaware River Bridge from New Jersey into Pennsylvania on Interstate 276.

E-ZPass customers, who make up more than 80 percent of traffic at the bridge, will pay $5 for a two-axle vehicle; non-E-ZPass customers will pay $6.75 via Toll by Plate, a system that will take an image of the license plate and mail an invoice to the vehicle's owner. Each additional axel will cost an additional $5 for E-ZPass customers and an additional $6.75 for non-E-ZPass customers.

The Delaware River Bridge electronic toll is a critical element of the PTC's $1.4 billion project to connect I-95 and the Turnpike. "This is a vital project for the commission and the region and an essential first step in creating a long-awaited direct link between the Turnpike and I-95,"  said Turnpike Chairman Sean Logan.

[jeffandnicole]

BucksLocalNews.com: Pennsylvania Turnpike okays rates for Delaware River bridge electronic toll; changes paving way for direct connection with I-95

The Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission (PTC) has approved toll rates for a cashless, nonstop tolling point for westbound motorists crossing the Delaware River Bridge from New Jersey into Pennsylvania on Interstate 276.

E-ZPass customers, who make up more than 80 percent of traffic at the bridge, will pay $5 for a two-axle vehicle; non-E-ZPass customers will pay $6.75 via Toll by Plate, a system that will take an image of the license plate and mail an invoice to the vehicle's owner. Each additional axel will cost an additional $5 for E-ZPass customers and an additional $6.75 for non-E-ZPass customers.

The Delaware River Bridge electronic toll is a critical element of the PTC's $1.4 billion project to connect I-95 and the Turnpike. "This is a vital project for the commission and the region and an essential first step in creating a long-awaited direct link between the Turnpike and I-95,"  said Turnpike Chairman Sean Logan.

Someone in a car going south will save approximately $2.40 by using Interchange 6 of the NJ Turnpike rather than continuing down to Interchange 1.  Then they won't have to pay the Delaware Memorial Bridge toll of $4.  But, they will be spending $5 (w/ EZ Pass) to cross over to the PA Turnpike.  Thus, the net savings of following I-95 rather than the NJ Turnpike & 295 is only going to be approximately $1.60.  If they don't have EZ Pass, it will actually be approximately 15 cents more expensive to follow 95.

Note: I use approximately because the price difference between Interchange 6 and 1 varies based on where you entered the turnpike, ranging from $1.85 (Interchange 8A) and $2.70 (Interchanges 7 & 15W).  The Turnpike calculates its tolls by the mile on average, but as you can see it can vary quite a bit.  Also, I used EZ Pass Rush Hour/Weekend rates for the NJ Turnpike; the non-peak rates results in a smaller savings I believe.

[PHLBOS]

Since I've treked back-and-forth (Greater Philly to New England) many times over the last 25 years; let's do an actual real-world comparison (note: I have a PTC-issued E-ZPass, so off-peak rates for NJ toll roads don't apply).

NJTP from Exit 11 to 7A: $2.45
Using I-195 West to I-295 South to I-76 West (via the Walt Whitman Bridge): $5.00
Total: $7.45
Completely reverse-direction toll: $2.45

Round-trip total: $9.90

NJTP from Exit 11 to Exit 6: $3.50
PA Turnpike Exit 359 (toll barrier) to Exit 358 (US 13): $1.46 (FYI cash rate $2.15)
Total: $4.96
Complete reverse-direction toll: $4.96

Round-trip toll: $9.92

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 but Exit 7A to Exit 11 reverse (I presently use this intinerary for my travels): $4.96 + $2.45
Round-trip toll: $7.41

Tolls with new PA Turnpike gantry

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 (or Future I-95 South connection when complete):$3.50 + $5
Total: $8.50
Complete reverse-direction toll: $3.50
Round-trip toll: $12

Exit 11-Exit 6-Exit 358 but Exit 7A to Exit 11 reverse (I presently use this intinerary for my travels): $8.50 + $2.45
Round-trip toll: $10.95

[cpzilliacus]

post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway

The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.

[MASTERNC]

post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway

The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.

If you read the article, it sounds like it won't be ORT, but rather motorists will still have to slowly proceed through toll booths (similar to the Henry Hudson Bridge in NYC).

[cl94]

post-gazette.com: Toll collectors to disappear on Beaver Valley Expressway

The Pennsylvania Turnpike hopes to do away with toll collectors and tossing coins into baskets on the 16.5-mile Beaver Valley Expressway next summer.

Plans call for implementing all-electronic collection on the expressway, which is the tolled portion of Interstate 376 stretching from Chippewa in Beaver County to New Castle in Lawrence County.

People with E-ZPass would be billed the same as today, but those without the transponders would have their license plates photographed. They would be billed monthly by mail for the equivalent of the former cash toll.

Cash tolls are about 40 percent more than E-ZPass tolls.

If you read the article, it sounds like it won't be ORT, but rather motorists will still have to slowly proceed through toll booths (similar to the Henry Hudson Bridge in NYC).

It won't. Hell of a lot cheaper if they're doing it as more of a test case, which it appears they are. I doubt the traffic counts out there are high enough for true open-road to make a difference, anyway.

Certainly can't blame them for starting small, though. Better to work out the kinks if it's only in a couple places than to fix teething issues on the entire system.

[vdeane]

One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?

[rickmastfan67]

I think it's because they wanted to test without having to remove the 'mainline' toll booths on I-376 to see how traffic 'works'.

If the history of the Golden Gate toll plaza says something, we're going to hear about possible wrecks and backups because people are stopping in the lanes trying to pay cash.

[cpzilliacus]

One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?

Though consider that it only takes a few drivers who do not understand AET (and there will be some of those) to cause major traffic problems.

[jeffandnicole]

One would think AET would be a known quantity, given how many places already use it.  Or has each agency chosen to reinvent the wheel?

Actually, AET is not really well known, especially by those in the Northeast.  There's only a few toll roads in the nation that use it, so it would be understandable if very few people have actually encountered it. 

Because each agency has its own hardware, software, computer components, accounting, DMV agreements, bondholder agreements., etc, there are a number of nuances that each toll authority has to work with.  And I'm not sure that there's any toll roads using AET that charge you based on the distance traveled as of yet.  Most AETs are just charging a fixed toll.  Even the toll roads that charge based on entry-exit points, those that use an EZ Pass lane without an EZ Pass are charged a maximum fare, not the exact fare, so that shows there's a bit of work that would need to be done to figure out AET based on entry-exit points alone.

The equipment itself is fairly basic: readers, cameras, over-road gantries, etc.  But even if 80% or so of the toll road traffic has EZ Pass, that still leaves thousands of vehicles - if not tens of thousands - paying cash, and with AET that would mean paying bills sent at a later date.

While I wouldn't call it reinventing the wheel, there are so many unique factors that need to be considered that it is pretty damn close to that though.

[vdeane]

We already have AET E-ZPass facilities, so in terms of equipment, it's already a solved problem.  All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.  As for users, there would be a lot less hassle if they put in gantries like a permanent install; most of the booth hassles are because people don't realize they're on an AET facility and don't realize that the booths are abandoned.

As for charging the maximum far for non-E-ZPass users... that's because it's a penalty, not because it can't be done.  Since it's illegal for users without E-ZPass to use E-ZPass only lanes, the agencies went cheap and didn't install cameras on the entry lanes.  Simply installing the cameras and making the administrative changes would fix that.  Plus they can just call the people who run ON 407 if they have questions.  The main reason most facilities convert to barrier systems with AET is because that's trendy right now (and because of the "who gives a crap if there's 10 different charges for 1 trip instead of 1 when they're not stopping" issue; never mind that some of us like the cleaner E-ZPass statements that come from having everything combined).

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

[Rothman]

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   

[jeffandnicole]

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.

[Rothman]

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.

Although E-ZPass is a bunch of different systems, it has the benefit of being coordinated by the IAG.  Such a governance system could be implemented nationwide.

[davewiecking]

All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.

ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

[Mr_Northside]

All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.

ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....

[vdeane]

Honestly, we need a lot less propitiatory stuff in everything, so if AET were to convince these authorities to adopt a single standard for doing business, all the better.

^This, ^this and more ^this.   

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.  Most agencies need to bid out their work.   Unless they have a really good reason, they have to award the bid to the lowest bidder.  If the lowest bidder says that they can create a AET system, and there's no reasonable doubt they can't, they are awarded the bid.  It's almost guaranteed that if the agency says that they prefer another vendor because of their work on another toll agency's system, even though their bid was higher, the agency will be taken to court.

EZ Pass itself, while a unified network to the motorist, is made up of numerous different systems.  Even more complicated is that they are now cross-honoring passes and accounts from other networks outside of EZ Pass.

And remember - AET isn't a specific thing (all it stands for is All Electronic Tolling), so it can't convince anyone to do anything.  While Maryland instituted AET with EZ Pass on the ICC, it was hardly the first to do so...Texas, Florida & California all had all-electronic tolling options prior to Maryland and EZ Pass.

They can't just design it in-house and only bid out for the actual installation?  Or put that stuff in as design parameters?  There are only so many ways to skin a cat... the technical end has been solved many times by many states (the reason I mentioned Maryland is because they're an E-ZPass state, some the implementation would likely be very similar if not identical).

[qguy]

...we need a lot less propitiatory stuff...

Do you mean "proprietary?" Propitiatory means "resulting in appeasement or pacification." Or am I just not seeing it right? (Wouldn't be the first time...)

[Rothman]

  Or put that stuff in as design parameters? 

This is what I was thinking.  If everyone used strict enough specs to make all systems compatible, I don't see how nationwide compatibility is so infeasible.

[cpzilliacus]

All the PTC needs to do is call up Maryland and ask them how the ICC works.

ICC uses a gantry between each set of exits (one in each direction). Same setup on 495/95 Express lanes in VA. Fortunately, the EZpass invoice doesn't line item each stretch of road, but provides a summary for each trip.

I've read that the PTC has been considering this model for the mainline, rather than simply replacing the entry/exit booths.  (No mention how it would be invoiced).
When I read that, I wondered if they would also re-toll the stretch between Cranberry & Ohio, since it would still be free-flowing, and charging travelers a little more fairly.
Wait and see, I suppose....

Though on the other hand, the PTC is going ahead with a one-way all-electronic toll coming off the turnpike bridge over the Delaware River when the interchange at Bristol is complete enough to sign the far eastern end of the Pennsylvania Turnpike's East-West Mainline as I-95. 

Since there will no longer be cash collected there, why not charge toll in both directions?