Oklahoma

[bugo]

What ODOT should really be focusing on is getting rid of some of the roads they own and maintain. Oklahoma has way too many state maintained roads. A lot of them are in areas that are pretty much on the decline.

I can't agree with that. Oklahoma's state highway system is much more sparse than some states. For example, Oklahoma's state highway system is 12,254 miles, and the area of the state is 68,578 square miles. Its neighbor to the east, Arkansas, has a state highway system of 16,442 miles and the total area is 53,179 square miles. A ton of county roads in Oklahoma would be state highways in other states.

[Bobby5280]

The funny thing is a lot of these non-descript county roads and section line roads positioned on what seems like every mile notch across the state get a lot of state funding. The roads themselves are one thing. Many of them have numerous bridges to maintain too.

As rural counties in Oklahoma continue to see their median populations shift older (partly from young adults fleeing to OKC, Tulsa, DFW, etc) there is going to be less and less justification to continue maintaining those roads. I'm sure the agri-business industry will need to keep as many of those roads open as possible. But I can see a day when Oklahoma shifts the responsibility of maintaining those roads to those commercial businesses rather than the taxpayers.

Meanwhile, Oklahoma does have highway corridors it seriously needs to improve and expand.

[roadman65]

I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.

Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased? 

[Scott5114]

Just old school habits dying hard.

[roadman65]

Figured.

Hey I see on Wiki that US 412 was considered by the Governor in 2021 to be considered an interstate corridor.  Has anyone yet speculated what number would be assigned for it, or is it too early in the game. Logically it should be I-42, but NC has that number taken. If it were to continue to I-35 north of  Oklahoma City, I would say I-46 is available and would be justified as part of it would be north of I-44.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/jun/11/converting-us-412-to-interstate-standard-faces/

However obstacles remain. It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

[Great Lakes Roads]

Figured.

Hey I see on Wiki that US 412 was considered by the Governor in 2021 to be considered an interstate corridor.  Has anyone yet speculated what number would be assigned for it, or is it too early in the game. Logically it should be I-42, but NC has that number taken. If it were to continue to I-35 north of  Oklahoma City, I would say I-46 is available and would be justified as part of it would be north of I-44.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2023/jun/11/converting-us-412-to-interstate-standard-faces/

However obstacles remain. It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

They have settled for I-42...

[-- US 175 --]

It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

I believe that would be I-69 (?).

[The Ghostbuster]

It didn't take long for two non-continuous future Interstate 42's to pop up in the country. It took significantly longer for the country to get two Interstate 76s, two Interstate 84s, two Interstate 86s, two Interstate 87s, and two Interstate 88s. I'm not counting the multiple Interstate 69s and Interstate 74s, since they are (or were) proposed to ultimately be one continuous Interstate corridor (good luck with that).

[roadman65]

It would probably take as long as to complete I-49 from Dyersburg to Texas.

I believe that would be I-69 (?).

Damn. A two off typo. Or one of those thinking purple but saying pink moments.

Yeah I meant I-69. Of course I-49 will eventually get done. Arkansas is just having trouble funding it. Louisiana is just having trouble with Shreveport and I'm guessing money is the issue with US 90 upgrades east of Lafayette.

[Plutonic Panda]

Improvements to US-259 in Hochatown are coming in 2024:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20221027.html

[bwana39]

I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.

Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased?

Old School protocol. SOMETIMES family members will make the point in not so innocuous ways. ESPECIALLY on the rural freeway or divided highway. (Do not overtake the hearse. )

[bwana39]

Improvements to US-259 in Hochatown are coming in 2024:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects0/public-meetings-and-hearings0/public-meetings-and-hearings/20221027.html

Hochatown is a boomtown. Either it is the ultimate resort location in Oklahoma or it is as I have heard posited elsewhere a really neat way to get an Oklahoma pot card.  (IE build a home there and get a card fairly easily then rent it on AirBnB or VRBO.)

Traffic is terrible. 259 was 2-lane without shoulders. They have put up three or 4 traffic signals. They have added some shoulders.  It is still a mess. Choctaw is building a HUGE casino there. Land prices are huge. Vacancy rates are up and rental prices are falling.

A couple of decades ago, this land was practically worthless. Ranchers and rodeoers from Texas would buy or rent it for dirt prices and let horses and cattle winter there (with minimal feed or hay). There was literally enough land you could rent enough to let the livestock forage on it cheaper than you could feed them at home.

[bugo]

I was on a portion of US 60 in Northeastern Oklahoma when a funeral procession passed in the opposing direction. During the moment, every car in my direction pulled aside despite not being in the path of the procession.
Is that a state law? Or is that just old school protocol where people just want to show respects to the family of the deceased?

Old School protocol. SOMETIMES family members will make the point in not so innocuous ways. ESPECIALLY on the rural freeway or divided highway. (Do not overtake the hearse. )

This is a custom that needs to die (no pun intended). Somebody dies each and every day, and inconveniencing drivers for an archaic, outdated tradition is unnecessary. Society needs to start looking at moving completely away from cemeteries because they take up valuable space and move towards cremation as the default method of disposing of bodies. If I died, I certainly wouldn't want to hold up traffic just because it would make my lazy family think they were doing something.

[Plutonic Panda]

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

[Rothman]

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

[MikieTimT]

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

[Rothman]

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

Someone doesn't know what an MPO does.

MPO sets up an transportation improvement program (TIP) to enable federal funding for projects within their planning area (MPA).  That's really their most important function, outside of bringing sponsors together for other planning activities.  If Enid is in a non-attainment area (doubtful), the MPO would also be conducting environmental analysis...eventually.  We're talking a dinky MPO size-wise and their function will be quite limited in the short-term.

So, to say that a fledgling MPO's top priority would be to recommend an expansion of a proposed corridor when they don't have their feet under themselves yet with their routine functions is...silly.

[Bobby5280]

Enid's MPO has the potential to be more than mere political window dressing. It just has to be pitched the right way. US-81 and US-412 are both divided 4-lane highways. Enid has a decent railroad hub there and is a short distance from the Southern Transcon rail corridor. Vance AFB is in the South side of Enid.

I think Enid needs some kind of partial loop similar the one proposed in Chickasha or the one slowing getting upgraded in Duncan. Start it out initially as a Super-2 with some limited access or just at-grade intersections, but with enough ROW that a Interstate quality freeway upgrade could be possible if eventually needed.

The cost of doing business in Oklahoma is pretty low compared to the rest of the country. Enid is in a regionally central location and has decent transportation connections. With some improvements, such as an Interstate quality connection with I-35 and a thru route out the West side of town, Enid might be able to attract some logistical businesses to that area. An upgrade of US-412 to Interstate standards between Enid and I-35 would be nice (and not difficult to build since there is plenty of room). But they need to work on getting one or more relief corridors around town established.

[Rothman]

*facedesk*

[sprjus4]

Looks like Enid is getting an MPO: https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2023/city-of-enid--oklahoma-department-of-transportation-partner-for-.html

Heh.  If you can piece together an urbanized area of 50,000 people, you have to have one under federal rules for transportation funding.

Seems to me that the first point of order of said MPO should be the recommendation of extending the US-412 Interstate upgrade of I-46/I-48/I-50/I-52 from I-35 up to the point where the divided highway ends coming into Enid, at least until such time as a bypass is warranted.  Wouldn't take much of a lift to close access/build overpasses/build access roads on US-412 between I-35 and where the divided highway currently ends on the east end of town.

I highly doubt any interstate upgrade of US-412 is any priority for them - or need. The existing divided highway seems adequate enough, is there a large volume of traffic that justifies limited access?

[Bobby5280]

The existing divided highways outside of Enid are adequate for non-local traffic. But what if the people living in Enid don't want a bunch of out of town trucks beating the shit out of their local streets? A local relief route, truck bypass or whatever the f*** anyone wants to call it might be a good idea. That kind of thing is actually being done in other parts of Oklahoma -in towns smaller than Enid.

But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

[Scott5114]

But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

If I'm understanding Rothman right, he's saying "facedesk" because an MPO doesn't do anything but manage paperwork and coordinate between agencies. Any advocacy or planning for highway improvements in the Enid area would have to be done by ODOT, Garfield County, or the city of Enid, not the MPO.

[Rothman]

But Enid deserves "facedesk." Sorry, Enid. You guys can go to hell.

If I'm understanding Rothman right, he's saying "facedesk" because an MPO doesn't do anything but manage paperwork and coordinate between agencies. Any advocacy or planning for highway improvements in the Enid area would have to be done by ODOT, Garfield County, or the city of Enid, not the MPO.

Come to think of it, at least in NY, MPOs are sort of partners on big projects rather than advocates or lobbyists.  Ideas for projects don't really originate within MPOs, but they certainly can fund planning studies and the like once they're identified by whatever sponsor.  But actually standing at some pulpit somewhere banging their fist to the State Government about a particular project?  Really not their place, from my experience.

Because an MPO consists of representatives from all the localities in their MPA, it would be difficult for the MPO to take its own position, anyway, without ticking someone off.  Its structure makes advocacy like is being discussed almost impossible.

And the role can be ambiguous or a source of tension.  For example, SMTC in Syracuse has had members think that MPOs should have actual oversight over projects (e.g., I-81) -- "We're not voting to add the funding to the TIP unless the project meets our demands."  NYSDOT disagrees with that perspective and that tension plays out over the MPO tables across the State with the doomsday option looming over it (e.g., federal funds flow through DOTs, so if an MPO misbehaves...).

That "paperwork" of the TIP determines what projects are progressed, so it's quite significant.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[Plutonic Panda]

I would imagine to some extent MPO's work differently in states with bigger populations. I know that sounds crazy but I do think this will help Enid.

[sprjus4]

The existing divided highways outside of Enid are adequate for non-local traffic. But what if the people living in Enid don't want a bunch of out of town trucks beating the shit out of their local streets? A local relief route, truck bypass or whatever the f*** anyone wants to call it might be a good idea. That kind of thing is actually being done in other parts of Oklahoma -in towns smaller than Enid.

Okay, build a bypass. The existing divided highway between Enid and I-35 is adequate. It doesn't need an interstate highway or limited access upgrade in the foreseeable future. The proposed US-412 interstate highway to the east terminates at I-35.