Random Thoughts

[tmoore952]

Music nerd time...

The notion that "B♯ is really C, so they should just write it as a C" only makes any sense from a pianist's perspective, and only because of the layout of the white and black keys.  It makes no sense, though, from the perspective of playing any other type of instrument.  For example, a bass guitarist should have no different concept of playing a B♯ on the 3rd fret of the A string than he does of playing an A♯ on the 3rd fret of the G string.  Or, B♯ and C having the same fingering because they're enharmonically equivalent shouldn't phase a clarinet player any more than F♯ and G♭ having the same fingering because they're enharmonically equivalent.

I thought that when there are enharmonic notes, how those notes get notated is contextual; has to do with the key signature.
C major would be C-D-E-F-G-A-B, not C-D-E-F-G-A-Cb (you can't have two different notes beginning with C).

[GaryV]

Music nerd time...

The notion that "B♯ is really C, so they should just write it as a C" only makes any sense from a pianist's perspective, and only because of the layout of the white and black keys.  It makes no sense, though, from the perspective of playing any other type of instrument.  For example, a bass guitarist should have no different concept of playing a B♯ on the 3rd fret of the A string than he does of playing an A♯ on the 3rd fret of the G string.  Or, B♯ and C having the same fingering because they're enharmonically equivalent shouldn't phase a clarinet player any more than F♯ and G♭ having the same fingering because they're enharmonically equivalent.

I thought that when there are enharmonic notes, how those notes get notated is contextual; has to do with the key signature.
C major would be C-D-E-F-G-A-B, not C-D-E-F-G-A-Cb (you can't have two different notes beginning with C).

Yep, it's all because of freakin' music theory rules.

We've got a piece in choir right now that switches from 4 flats to 2 flats. And then starting 1 measure later, every flat is accidentaled in, even G flat. If you wanted 5 flats, why not put 5 flats in the key signature? I gather it's because it's some different mode, so the tonic is really B flat, even though it's not a regular B flat scale.

From a singing point of view, C flats don't faze me - they're almost always "blue" notes.

Oh, and word nerd time - faze, not phase.

[Scott5114]

Music nerd time...

The notion that "B♯ is really C, so they should just write it as a C" only makes any sense from a pianist's perspective, and only because of the layout of the white and black keys.  It makes no sense, though, from the perspective of playing any other type of instrument.

B♯ annoys me as a trombone player, but only because
D♭ = 5
C = 6
B = 7

Having another note to remember in there that's equal to C is annoying, because my thought process is "okay, that's one up from B, which is 7, so it's in 6... wait, but 6 is C? Oh yeah, there's not a C♭, they're just playing games with the notation."

(Then again, sharps annoy me in general, since music for trombone is not often written with them; the most common key signatures for music which would call for a trombone to be around at all tend to have one to three flats.)

[US 89]

See, I used to play piano and I far preferred sharps. Mostly because in all keys that have flats other than F, one of the flats is the root note of the key, and for whatever reason I had a hell of a time wrapping my brain around that. Also, those root notes often get played with your pinkie or thumb in chords because they tend to be at the ends, and it isn't easy to play black keys with those fingers. (Yeah, I'm sure there are better ways, but I wasn't that good.)

(Then again, sharps annoy me in general, since music for trombone is not often written with them; the most common key signatures for music which would call for a trombone to be around at all tend to have one to three flats.)

Doesn't written trombone music automatically transpose down from C to B-flat anyway?

[kurumi]

As another trombonist (concert B♭) I tend to prefer / be familiar with flats -- but when playing keyboards with bass and guitar, I'm more used to keys like E, D, G, so on.

I have this other synesthetic thing where modulating up the circle of fourths (E, A, D, G) seems like advancing and getting stronger, while moving along the circle of fifths (E, B, F♯) seems like retreating.

And, in other temperaments like 17edo, D♭ and C♯ are not identical (and D♭ is lower than C♯).

[Scott5114]

(Then again, sharps annoy me in general, since music for trombone is not often written with them; the most common key signatures for music which would call for a trombone to be around at all tend to have one to three flats.)

Doesn't written trombone music automatically transpose down from C to B-flat anyway?

Truth be told, I have no idea—I went to school in Oklahoma, so music education didn't actually cover anything beyond how to play the notes on the page. They never told us how transposition works or even what a chord was since none of our instruments could play more than one note at a time.

[kphoger]

B♯ annoys me as a trombone player, but only because
D♭ = 5
C = 6
B = 7

But does B♯ annoy you more than C♯ annoys you?  My point is that it shouldn't.

I thought that when there are enharmonic notes, how those notes get notated is contextual; has to do with the key signature.
C major would be C-D-E-F-G-A-B, not C-D-E-F-G-A-Cb (you can't have two different notes beginning with C).

Correct.  But the actual performer doesn't necessarily care about that.  They just want a dot on the page to tell them what note to play.  There are therefore plenty of musicians out there would still prefer to write a G♭-minor triad as G♭ A D♭ rather than the theoretically correct G♭ B♭♭ D♭.  It sounds the same, and it's arguably easier to play.  Likewise, an A♭-minor triad as A♭ B E♭ rather than the theoretically correct A♭ C♭ E♭.

[paulthemapguy]

As another trombonist (concert B♭) I tend to prefer / be familiar with flats -- but when playing keyboards with bass and guitar, I'm more used to keys like E, D, G, so on.

I have this other synesthetic thing where modulating up the circle of fourths (E, A, D, G) seems like advancing and getting stronger, while moving along the circle of fifths (E, B, F♯) seems like retreating.

I don't know if that's synesthesia; that just makes sense to me.  Fourths create fanfare and positive boldness.  They indicate a charge forward!  Fifths are usually subservient to the dominant chord; when a fifth is played, the natural next move is for it to be taken over by the dominant chord.

I have played piano on and off since I was 4, and I did percussion (usually pitched percussion) in band and orchestra from grades 6-12.  I also write music and am very into music theory.  It's great to see other musically-trained people on the forums.

Guitars are sharpy; flutes and other instruments in concert pitch are flatty (my xylophone and timpani parts were usually flatty).

[paulthemapguy]

I'm not saying they don't phase you.  I'm saying there's no logical reason they should phase you, because your instrument is not tied to the black and white key layout of the piano.  The only reason they phase you is that music is rarely written to include that notation, but the only reason for that ultimately boils down to the layout of the piano (or harpsichord, probably).

People who play a lot of other instruments fall back on visualizing a piano keyboard.  Often, this is because people learn piano before they learn another instrument.  But sometimes, this isn't even true--visual thinkers will use this visual layout to understand pitches; then they translate their fingering, etc. from that. 

Moreover, telling other people how they should feel about things is really cringeworthy.  Whatever logic you use to get to the right answer is valid, so long as it consistently gets you to the right answer.  There is no point in acting like the Beholder of the One True Understanding of Music when there are multiple ways to enjoy, rationalize, and approach the language of music.  Nobody is stupid for having their own strengths and struggles.

[GaryV]

G♭-minor triad
A♭-minor triad

While those are theoretically possible, they would really be written in F sharp and G sharp minor key signatures (same key signatures as A and B natural).

[kphoger]

People who play a lot of other instruments fall back on visualizing a piano keyboard.  Often, this is because people learn piano before they learn another instrument.  But sometimes, this isn't even true--visual thinkers will use this visual layout to understand pitches; then they translate their fingering, etc. from that.

Yes, I considered this.  I'm not even sure I can think of a single musician who doesn't at least know something of the piano, to ask how they conceptualize notes like E♯.  Piano is just so ingrained in our musical vocabulary.

Moreover, telling other people how they should feel about things is really cringeworthy.  Whatever logic you use to get to the right answer is valid, so long as it consistently gets you to the right answer.  There is no point in acting like the Beholder of the One True Understanding of Music when there are multiple ways to enjoy, rationalize, and approach the language of music.  Nobody is stupid for having their own strengths and struggles.

I'm sorry if that's how it came across.  To be clear, I struggle (playing piano) if there are a lot of accidentals.  And I'm not very good at playing melody lines on any other instrument at all.  So, if I sounded like I was calling you stupid, then please realize that I must also be calling myself even stupider.  It's just a random thought I had the other day.

G♭-minor triad
A♭-minor triad

While those are theoretically possible, they would really be written in F sharp and G sharp minor key signatures (same key signatures as A and B natural).

Depends.  I don't have the sheet music in front of me, but I believe Dvořák's "Na Starém Hradě" (In the Old Castle) is written in the key of E♭-major, but every so often he uses the ♭iii chord—which is G♭-minor.  In my opinion, it would be really weird to be playing a piece in E♭-major and then come across an F♯-minor chord.

[Scott5114]

B♯ annoys me as a trombone player, but only because
D♭ = 5
C = 6
B = 7

But does B♯ annoy you more than C♯ annoys you?  My point is that it shouldn't.

Yes, because C♯ is an actual note and B♯ isn't, it's a pointer to a note. Indirection puzzles should be limited to C the programming language, and not involve C the musical note.

[kphoger]

B♯ annoys me as a trombone player, but only because
D♭ = 5
C = 6
B = 7

Having another note to remember in there that's equal to C is annoying, because my thought process is "okay, that's one up from B, which is 7, so it's in 6...

And that's correct, right?  Just as your thought process for C♯ is probably "okay, that's one up from C, which is 6, so it's in 5..."  (I don't play any brass instruments, so I'm making sure I understand correctly.)

C♯ is an actual note and B♯ isn't, it's a pointer to a note.

To which I say, C♯ isn't an actual note, it's a pointer to E♭♭.

[Scott5114]

The problem is that by the time I've dereferenced the pointer, I was supposed to have already played the note.

[kphoger]

To which I say, C♯ isn't an actual note, it's a pointer to E♭♭.

Shit.  That doesn't even work out, does it?

[Scott5114]

To which I say, C♯ isn't an actual note, it's a pointer to E♭♭.

Shit.  That doesn't even work out, does it?

Ain't pointer arithmetic fun?

[kkt]

I miss assembly language sometimes.

[tmoore952]

I miss assembly language sometimes.

or C++

[kphoger]

C++

That should be spelled C E G𝄪 ...

[kphoger]

OK, so I just whipped up an arrangement of the second line of "Christmas Time Is Here" by Vince Guaraldi (A Charlie Brown Christmas).

The two lines of music shown below are identical, except for the third beat of the second measure.  Only the highlighted note is different:  the C♭ and B♮ are enharmonically equivalent.

Piano players:  which spelling makes the most sense to you in that A♭m6 chord?  Does spelling it as a C♭ help you conceptualize it as the third of the chord?  Do you even care that it's the third of the chord?

[vdeane]

NY's change to the move over law to apply to all vehicles, not just those with flashing lights, will make it really easy to enforce with sting operations.  Just park and unmarked police car on the shoulder with its lights off, and then pull over anyone who doesn't move over.

[Scott5114]

C++

That should be spelled C E G𝄪 ...

In C and its derivative languages, c++; is a shortening of c = c+1; So the musical equivalent of C++ would be C♯...which is also the name of a programming language (though it's usually written C# because that's easier to type).

[kphoger]

In C and its derivative languages, c++; is a shortening of c = c+1; So the musical equivalent of C++ would be C♯...which is also the name of a programming language (though it's usually written C# because that's easier to type).

It sounds to me like you're trying to assert that C is actually C♯ ...

[Scott5114]

It sounds to me like you're trying to assert that C is actually C♯ ...

Oh, no, far from it. For one thing, with each of them, strings are handled completely differently.

[kkt]

I miss assembly language sometimes.

or C++

No, I definitely miss assembly language a lot more than I miss C++.