Random Thoughts

[US 89]

I just found out that words sight, site and cite are homophones. They are pronounced exactly same. This surprises me.

How did you think they were pronounced? (That's a serious question—at least for the moment, I'm not making fun of you or picking on you, as I'm just genuinely wondering how you thought they were pronounced.)

I had suspected if they were pronounced as same, and I just confirmed that from Wiktionary. The thing that they are pronounced exactly same surprises me, as I have never previously seen a homophone pair differing in that one word uses "s" and the other word uses "c", with both pronounced as "s" sound.

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

[Rothman]

Then my question becomes --

What is 12 am - midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 0000.

What is 12 pm -- midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 1200.

Is there a standard? (meaning in the non-military and non 24-hour world, which obviously still exists)

I would say 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon.
In a perfect world, IMO you wouldn't use 12 am or 12 pm at all --- rather you would use midnight or noon.

But I know, as well as anyone, that some systems probably can only say 12 am or 12 pm. So perhaps times like that are best avoided?

Personally I've considered 12:00 am to be midnight, using the reasoning that 12:00:01 am would definitely be one second past midnight.  To avoid ambiguity, I would usually use the words "midnight" or "noon" instead.

I also remember a high school band trip (which involved overnight bus travel) having an itinerary which specified 11:59pm (rather than 12:00am) for a departure time, to avoid this problem.  All other times on the itinerary used "round" numbers for times - xx:00 or xx:30.

I'm the public relations guy for my university's Mug root beer club. We meet at midnight, and I always make sure to specify 11:59 PM in advertising, not just because of the noon-midnight issue, but for determining what day 12 o' clock midnight is actually on. I consider it to be the start of the day, but some might consider it the end.

A club devoted to Mug Root Beer?  How specific.

[mgk920]

Railroads also prohibit the use of 'even hours' (ie, '0659' is to be followed by '0701') in train dispatching.

What is the rationale for this?

Life safety.  An adage that I heard years ago is that EVERY line in the operating rulebook for railroad crews was 'written in blood'.

Mike

Okay...so why is it more of a hazard to dispatch a train at 0700 than it is 0659 or 0701? That's what I'm not understanding.

EVERY dispatching instruction has to be repeated back verbatim to the dispatcher (one important rule states that any instruction that is not correctly repeated back was ever sent) - the slightest error could easily be fatal.  This eliminates a potential source of such errors.

Mike

[TheCatalyst31]

Then my question becomes --

What is 12 am - midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 0000.

What is 12 pm -- midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 1200.

Is there a standard? (meaning in the non-military and non 24-hour world, which obviously still exists)

I would say 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon.
In a perfect world, IMO you wouldn't use 12 am or 12 pm at all --- rather you would use midnight or noon.

But I know, as well as anyone, that some systems probably can only say 12 am or 12 pm. So perhaps times like that are best avoided?

Personally I've considered 12:00 am to be midnight, using the reasoning that 12:00:01 am would definitely be one second past midnight.  To avoid ambiguity, I would usually use the words "midnight" or "noon" instead.

I also remember a high school band trip (which involved overnight bus travel) having an itinerary which specified 11:59pm (rather than 12:00am) for a departure time, to avoid this problem.  All other times on the itinerary used "round" numbers for times - xx:00 or xx:30.

I'm the public relations guy for my university's Mug root beer club. We meet at midnight, and I always make sure to specify 11:59 PM in advertising, not just because of the noon-midnight issue, but for determining what day 12 o' clock midnight is actually on. I consider it to be the start of the day, but some might consider it the end.

Do you meet at midnight because the middle of the night is the best time for Mugging?

[Scott5114]

Railroads also prohibit the use of 'even hours' (ie, '0659' is to be followed by '0701') in train dispatching.

What is the rationale for this?

Life safety.  An adage that I heard years ago is that EVERY line in the operating rulebook for railroad crews was 'written in blood'.

Mike

Okay...so why is it more of a hazard to dispatch a train at 0700 than it is 0659 or 0701? That's what I'm not understanding.

EVERY dispatching instruction has to be repeated back verbatim to the dispatcher (one important rule states that any instruction that is not correctly repeated back was ever sent) - the slightest error could easily be fatal.  This eliminates a potential source of such errors.

Mike

Interesting. Aviation has similar rules regarding reading back instructions (and similar stakes), but they work around misinterpretation by requiring the use of strict phraseology that makes misinterpretation difficult (for instance 0700 would be read out as "zero-seven-zero-zero" and be taken to mean UTC unless  specified otherwise). I suppose if you have the flexibility to just not use the problematic numbers, so much the better, though.

[webny99]

Parents who censor their kid's face on social media photos, but not the faces of other kids in the same photo who aren't theirs.

Was this supposed to go in "minor things that bother you?"

If so, I didn't know it was a thing but I agree it's minorly bothersome.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Parents who censor their kid's face on social media photos, but not the faces of other kids in the same photo who aren't theirs.

Was this supposed to go in "minor things that bother you?"

If so, I didn't know it was a thing but I agree it's minorly bothersome.

No, I just found it amusing.

[Takumi]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

I've also seen ciento abbreviated as cien, though I'm not sure if that's universal.

[Poiponen13]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

I've also seen ciento abbreviated as cien, though I'm not sure if that's universal.

Cien is found in isolation and ciento in compounds (like 132: ciento treinta y dos).

[Max Rockatansky]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

I've also seen ciento abbreviated as cien, though I'm not sure if that's universal.

Cien is found in isolation and ciento in compounds (like 132: ciento treinta y dos).

Courtesy "no" for you and your obsession with the number 132.

[1995hoo]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

I've also seen ciento abbreviated as cien, though I'm not sure if that's universal.

Note the value as expressed in words on the left side of the banknote:

[kphoger]

Then my question becomes --

What is 12 am - midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 0000.

What is 12 pm -- midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 1200.

Is there a standard? (meaning in the non-military and non 24-hour world, which obviously still exists)

I would say 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon.
In a perfect world, IMO you wouldn't use 12 am or 12 pm at all --- rather you would use midnight or noon.

But I know, as well as anyone, that some systems probably can only say 12 am or 12 pm. So perhaps times like that are best avoided?

Strictly speaking, AM and PM are incorrect with 12.  AM stands for ante meridiem. PM stands for post meridiem.  Noon and midnight are exactly on the meridian, neither before it nor after it.  So it is better to say midnight or noon, both for clear understanding and to be correct.

12:00 is only "exactly on the meridian" for the infinitesimal amount of time when the clock first strikes.  But 36 seconds after midnight, while still being 12:00, is not on the meridian:  it's after the meridian, just as 12:01 AM is.  That is to say, the amount of time called "12:00 PM" that is on the meridian tends to zero, and therefore the amount that is in the afternoon tends to 100%.

[kphoger]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

Sí, pero ¿piensas que mi vello es más bello que el tuyo?

[Brandon]

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Dialects of Northern Spain pronounce those differently (and so I do).

I've also seen ciento abbreviated as cien, though I'm not sure if that's universal.

Note the value as expressed in words on the left side of the banknote:

All of $5.84 US as of today.

[CtrlAltDel]

I just found out that words sight, site and cite are homophones. They are pronounced exactly same. This surprises me.

How did you think they were pronounced? (That's a serious question—at least for the moment, I'm not making fun of you or picking on you, as I'm just genuinely wondering how you thought they were pronounced.)

I had suspected if they were pronounced as same, and I just confirmed that from Wiktionary. The thing that they are pronounced exactly same surprises me, as I have never previously seen a homophone pair differing in that one word uses "s" and the other word uses "c", with both pronounced as "s" sound.

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Then there's sent, cent, and scent.

French, as you might imagine, has a bunch, for example:

sans
cent
sang
sens
sent
c'en
s'en

[webny99]

12:00 is only "exactly on the meridian" for the infinitesimal amount of time when the clock first strikes.  But 36 seconds after midnight, while still being 12:00, is not on the meridian:  it's after the meridian, just as 12:01 AM is.  That is to say, the amount of time called "12:00 PM" that is on the meridian tends to zero, and therefore the amount that is in the afternoon tends to 100%.

I knew that "midnight" is 12:00 AM and "noon" is 12:00 PM for good reason, and just couldn't put my finger on it but this is it. The pedantry we know, love and expect at AARoads. Well done.

[JayhawkCO]

I just found out that words sight, site and cite are homophones. They are pronounced exactly same. This surprises me.

How did you think they were pronounced? (That's a serious question—at least for the moment, I'm not making fun of you or picking on you, as I'm just genuinely wondering how you thought they were pronounced.)

I had suspected if they were pronounced as same, and I just confirmed that from Wiktionary. The thing that they are pronounced exactly same surprises me, as I have never previously seen a homophone pair differing in that one word uses "s" and the other word uses "c", with both pronounced as "s" sound.

These also exist in Spanish. My favorite is ciento/siento, which is even better because siento is the conjugated 1st-person singular present form of two entirely unrelated verbs. So we have

ciento - one hundred
siento (sentar) - I sit
siento (sentir) - I feel

Then there's sent, cent, and scent.

French, as you might imagine, has a bunch, for example:

sans
cent
sang
sens
sent
c'en
s'en

At least in Spanish and French, 'c' before 'e' or 'i' is pronounced the same as 's'. Before the other vowels, it's pronounced like 'k'. Similar things happen in the other Romance languages.

[kphoger]

At least in Spanish and French, 'c' before 'e' or 'i' is pronounced the same as 's'. Before the other vowels, it's pronounced like 'k'.

Peninsular Spanish is a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanish_coronal_fricatives#Distinction

[tmoore952]

Then my question becomes --

What is 12 am - midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 0000.

What is 12 pm -- midnight or noon? I know in the military it is 1200.

Is there a standard? (meaning in the non-military and non 24-hour world, which obviously still exists)

I would say 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon.
In a perfect world, IMO you wouldn't use 12 am or 12 pm at all --- rather you would use midnight or noon.

But I know, as well as anyone, that some systems probably can only say 12 am or 12 pm. So perhaps times like that are best avoided?

Strictly speaking, AM and PM are incorrect with 12.  AM stands for ante meridiem. PM stands for post meridiem.  Noon and midnight are exactly on the meridian, neither before it nor after it.  So it is better to say midnight or noon, both for clear understanding and to be correct.

12:00 is only "exactly on the meridian" for the infinitesimal amount of time when the clock first strikes.  But 36 seconds after midnight, while still being 12:00, is not on the meridian:  it's after the meridian, just as 12:01 AM is.  That is to say, the amount of time called "12:00 PM" that is on the meridian tends to zero, and therefore the amount that is in the afternoon tends to 100%.

Limits (math class) strikes again!

I do not, however, know anyone who would schedule something at 12:00:30 PM. If being that specific, they would use 12:01 as discussed in several earlier posts re train schedules and the like.

[kphoger]

I do not, however, know anyone who would schedule something at 12:00:30 PM. If being that specific, they would use 12:01 as discussed in several earlier posts re train schedules and the like.

No.  But everything that happens during that minute happens after exact noon.

Or, if you were looking at a report of timestamps, and it went like this . . .

11:58:58
11:59:32
11:59 47
11:59:55
12:00:00
12:00:18
12:00:42
12:01:11
12:01:39
12:02:01

. . . then it should be pretty clear that the bottom five occurred in the PM-timeframe.  It stands to reason, then, that the bottom six did so.

[kkt]

I do not, however, know anyone who would schedule something at 12:00:30 PM. If being that specific, they would use 12:01 as discussed in several earlier posts re train schedules and the like.

No.  But everything that happens during that minute happens after exact noon.

Or, if you were looking at a report of timestamps, and it went like this . . .

11:58:58
11:59:32
11:59 47
11:59:55
12:00:00
12:00:18
12:00:42
12:01:11
12:01:39
12:02:01

. . . then it should be pretty clear that the bottom five occurred in the PM-timeframe.  It stands to reason, then, that the bottom six did so.

because 5=6, for sufficiently large values of 5?

[US 89]

At least in Spanish and French, 'c' before 'e' or 'i' is pronounced the same as 's'. Before the other vowels, it's pronounced like 'k'.

Peninsular Spanish is a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanish_coronal_fricatives#Distinction

I was exposed to that quite early in high school Spanish class - my Spanish teacher's family was originally from Spain, and so she used the distinción pronunciations.

Which was only funny because the course material was clearly intended to teach Latin American Spanish. We pretty much did not cover vosotros, for example - we barely learned those verb conjugations and never actually used it in a sentence.

[Poiponen13]

At least in Spanish and French, 'c' before 'e' or 'i' is pronounced the same as 's'. Before the other vowels, it's pronounced like 'k'.

Peninsular Spanish is a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanish_coronal_fricatives#Distinction

I was exposed to that quite early in high school Spanish class - my Spanish teacher's family was originally from Spain, and so she used the distinción pronunciations.

Which was only funny because the course material was clearly intended to teach Latin American Spanish. We pretty much did not cover vosotros, for example - we barely learned those verb conjugations and never actually used it in a sentence.

I used to learn some Spanish at my former school, and that education is based on European Spanish. I like that European Spanish makes the distinction by pronouncing soft c / z as a sound like English think. I think that French should also pronounce similar sound as a dental fricative, to distinguish it from s.

[kkt]

At least in Spanish and French, 'c' before 'e' or 'i' is pronounced the same as 's'. Before the other vowels, it's pronounced like 'k'.

Peninsular Spanish is a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanish_coronal_fricatives#Distinction

I was exposed to that quite early in high school Spanish class - my Spanish teacher's family was originally from Spain, and so she used the distinción pronunciations.

Which was only funny because the course material was clearly intended to teach Latin American Spanish. We pretty much did not cover vosotros, for example - we barely learned those verb conjugations and never actually used it in a sentence.

I used to learn some Spanish at my former school, and that education is based on European Spanish. I like that European Spanish makes the distinction by pronouncing soft c / z as a sound like English think. I think that French should also pronounce similar sound as a dental fricative, to distinguish it from s.

You should definitely write to the Académie Française with your ideas for improving their language.