Minnesota Notes

[froggie]

A river bridge on the south side of St. Cloud has been discussed for at least 20 years.  Based on the article, the current proposal is not much different than the last time, with the bridge tying into 33rd St on the Stearns County side.  The Sherburne County side is a bit more murky, but previous proposals had it connecting to 10 at or near CSAH 3.

And no, the beltway will not be built to freeway standards, so you can give up on your "I-294" idea.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

While the southern segment of the beltline may be helpful in easing congestion on the Division and University river crossings, I think the northern 3/4 of it sounds mostly unnecessary other than possibly the northwestern quadrant between MN 23 and US 10. Because 94 and 10 don't come close to downtown, the vast majority of traffic in St. Cloud has a start/end either there or Sauk Rapids. I also don't think the beltline will do much to address the stated problem of commuter congestion from Mille Lacs and central Benton counties. This project might be better sold as a MN 23 bypass whether entirely city/county driven or someday possibly upgraded to a state highway; there seems to be no interest in doing this, but perhaps making the bypass the full-fledged MN 23 whenever the southern quadrant is completed would fit the long-term vision for the corridor better anyway based on what is being done southwest of St. Cloud and the current four-lane section to the northeast that exists to Foley.

While more river crossings are absolutely needed, what needs to be addressed in tandem is that getting E/W across downtown St. Cloud f**king sucks especially east of MN 15. Building that southern quadrant might keep some traffic off the other river crossings, but that traffic will still be finding its way up to Division eventually and causing the same congestion on it. Division is pretty much the only way to cross the river E/W since University and St. Germain don't work well as through crossings, with the University crossing specifically cited in the beltline study as overcapacity and also does not connect to anything meaningful.

[Mdcastle]

How about we get rid of the signals on 10 and 15 first?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

How about we get rid of the signals on 10 and 15 first?

Especially since 15/23/75 has been at the top of the state's "most dangerous" intersections lists for decades. Retail chain hell on those corners will make this extremely difficult to fix now.

[EpicRoadways]

IIRC, there was an initial proposal about ten or fifteen years ago to fix some of the congestion on University by expanding the bridge and roadway to four lanes from 4th Avenue on east with the possibly to even extend University to US-10 but the project never got off the ground because of intense opposition from the neighborhood about the increased traffic and impacts to parkland. Damn George Friedrich Park.

Also, regarding the 15 freeway I've pretty much accepted that it's never gonna happen. The best we can hope for at this point is a freeway north of 12th Street and maybe some improvements to the "hump" over the railroad tracks between 3rd and 8th.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I'm surprised as well about Crosstown, the county built segments are pretty curvy and substandard.... Now that the 35W river Minnesota bridge/causeway improvement is near completion, the inner shoulders seem substandard throughout the reconstructed segment (although the additional auxiliary lane/eventual mainline lane (as can be gleaned by the spot for more girders on SB 35W 106th St. bridge) is a welcome addition), are such narrow inner shoulders now considered acceptable for interstates? It seems odd.. it's not as though the corridor is ROW constrained..

I swear every time I drive Crosstown, the section between France Avenue and 35W (especially between Xerxes and Penn) looks even more dilapidated than the previous time I was on it.

[MNtoOC]

While doing a little research on the John A Johnson Memorial Highway (169 from St Peter to 494), I noticed something interesting with the signs for Broadway Avenue at 169. Google Street View history shows the signs as originally posted said "Broadway Ave" but greenout has been placed over the Ave portion so they now just say "Broadway"  Does anyone know, or want to guess, as to what's going on there?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

While doing a little research on the John A Johnson Memorial Highway (169 from St Peter to 494), I noticed something interesting with the signs for Broadway Avenue at 169. Google Street View history shows the signs as originally posted said "Broadway Ave" but greenout has been placed over the Ave portion so they now just say "Broadway"  Does anyone know, or want to guess, as to what's going on there?

My guess is because "Broadway St/Ave" is redundant that perhaps some jurisdictions and/or MnDOT are trying to eliminate the redundancy, though those not intimately familiar with the New York street probably wouldn't notice or care. In Grand Marais, the main N/S street is Broadway Avenue, but when they replaced the stoplight at MN 61 last year the LGSs on the new stoplights read just "Broadway"; the old stoplights had no name plates, but the local blades say "Broadway Ave".

[andarcondadont]

During the 2020 construction season, Anoka County completed the widening and median (re)construction on Hanson Blvd/CSAH 78 between US 10 and Main St/CSAH 14. One component of that included an additional through lane on SB Hanson Blvd at the intersection with Gateway Dr-Northdale Blvd, which ties in directly to the double left turn lanes at the single-point urban interchange with US 10. I assume this was done because during morning rush hour, the left lane would get clogged as far as 121st Ave, and even farther during the winter. As it is striped today, this isn't a sufficient solution in my opinion. What do you all think?

[froggie]

I think Andover built itself up too much...I've been in metropolitan regions where 4 through lanes through an intersection occurs and it's not fun for anybody.

(says the guy whose mother lived in NW Andover for many years...)

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Yeah, as a long time resident of Elk River dealing with the sprawl in Andover, Blaine, and Coon Rapids got to be a major headache.

[andarcondadont]

Take this fact as you will, but Hanson Blvd is now at least a 4-lane divided roadway from Coon Rapids Blvd to just north of Crosstown Blvd in Andover.

[froggie]

4 lanes, no big deal.  6 lanes, not common in the Twin Cities but routine in larger metropolitan areas.  8 lanes is where I question the wisdom.

When I said "4 through lanes through an intersection" in my earlier comment, I was referring to 4 through lanes in one direction.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Take this fact as you will, but Hanson Blvd is now at least a 4-lane divided roadway from Coon Rapids Blvd to just north of Crosstown Blvd in Andover.

Awesome, one step closer to it being 4-laned all the way up to 22! (sarcasm, I remember when the sprawl hadn't gotten that far. and the stoplights on 22 at County 9 weren't there yet, nor the strip developments at that corner..)

[andarcondadont]

Hehe. Anoka County has also got to 4-lane CSAH 22 from the West county line to the East county line if they want to 4-lane the entirety of CSAH 78 AND transfer ownership to MnDOT. *Wink, wink

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Hehe. Anoka County has also got to 4-lane CSAH 22 from the West county line to the East county line if they want to 4-lane the entirety of CSAH 78 AND transfer ownership to MnDOT. *Wink, wink

Well...I don't really see that happening. I could see some improvements over the next 20-30 years between the Sherburne line and MN 65 if the sprawl keeps moving north:

-if Sherburne County wants to get on board, possibly 4-laning the rest of Sherburne 12 and the segment of 22 leading up to the current 4-way stop at the south end of 22's N/S segment
-stoplight at MN 47 replacing the 4-way stop, but my travels through here have never suggested this to be needed
-interchange at MN 65 (which MnDOT and the Met Council want but can't currently fund, although the issues with the RCI they built there might force some hands)

In other words, if you want MN 242 back they should just put it back on 14 between US 10 and MN 65.

[andarcondadont]

How'd you know I wanted MN 242 back?! Was it the profile picture?

In all seriousness, I don't think MN 242 should actually be brought back on CSAH 14 (maybe I'm biased because I live a few blocks away from it). What I am hopeful for (and what I hope we agree on) is either a CSAH 14 interchange at I-35W or an interchange on I-35E at 80th Street with a roadway extension directly to CSAH 14 somehow.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

How'd you know I wanted MN 242 back?! Was it the profile picture?

That, and the winking in your previous post.

In all seriousness, I don't think MN 242 should actually be brought back on CSAH 14 (maybe I'm biased because I live a few blocks away from it). What I am hopeful for (and what I hope we agree on) is either a CSAH 14 interchange at I-35W or an interchange on I-35E at 80th Street with a roadway extension directly to CSAH 14 somehow.

I could see some merit to a future I-35W/Main interchange in Lino Lakes, but failing that there's zero purpose for the 35E/80th interchange. That's in the middle of nowhere, and 80th will never be extended west to meet County 14 for multiple reasons.

[froggie]

What I am hopeful for (and what I hope we agree on) is either a CSAH 14 interchange at I-35W or an interchange on I-35E at 80th Street with a roadway extension directly to CSAH 14 somehow.

Two of the three (roadway extension called the "CSAH 14 Northerly Bypass", and an interchange at 35E/80th) have appeared on Anoka County transportation plans over the past 15 years.

[Papa Emeritus]

MnDoT has begun rebuilding MN-12 through Orono and Maple Plain. A concrete divider is being constructed in the median of MN-12 through Orono, and a roundabout is being built at the MN-12 / County Road 90 interchange. More information here:

https://www.startribune.com/welcomed-construction-mndot-begins-building-median-wall-on-hwy-12-in-west-metro/600058527/

I know it's impossible, and will never happen, but I wish MN-12 could be upgraded to a freeway from where the current freeway stretch ends, to at least Delano.

[kphoger]

... MN-12 through Orono and Maple Plain ... MN-12 through Orono ... MN-12 / County Road 90 interchange ... MN-12 ...

That isn't MN-12.

MN-12 was decommissioned almost 90 years ago.

http://www.steve-riner.com/mnhighways/r1-25.htm

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I know it's impossible, and will never happen, but I wish MN-12 could be upgraded to a freeway from where the current freeway stretch ends, to at least Delano.

Froggie said a couple times that this ship sailed when Maple Plain and Independence couldn't agree on a bypass route 25 years ago.

[The Ghostbuster]

There also was once a State Highway 12 here in Wisconsin, which ironically followed present-day US 12's route along its entire length through the state (minus a few realignments and rerouting the highway onto freeway and expressway alignments). Thus, all they had to do when the US Highway System debuted in 1926 was replace the STH-12 signs with US 12 signs. I think the Star Tribune article should have called the highway US Highway 12 instead of just Highway 12. Then again, since there is only one Highway 12 in Minnesota, I doubt anyone was confused when they omitted the "US" part from the article.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I think the Star Tribune article should have called the highway US Highway 12 instead of just Highway 12. Then again, since there is only one Highway 12 in Minnesota, I doubt anyone was confused when they omitted the "US" part from the article.

Somewhat similarly to Wisconsin, in local jargon in Minnesota everything that isn't an interstate is colloquially called "Highway X". Interstates are either I-x or just referred to by number with no prefix at all.

[froggie]

I know it's impossible, and will never happen, but I wish MN-12 could be upgraded to a freeway from where the current freeway stretch ends, to at least Delano.

Froggie said a couple times that this ship sailed when Maple Plain and Independence couldn't agree on a bypass route 25 years ago.

Correct.  MnDOT studied a 4-lane Hwy 12 out past Delano in the early '90s, but dropped it when the respective towns in western Hennepin County couldn't agree on a routing.  Independence wanted it along existing 12 through Maple Plain, while Maple Plain wanted a bypass.  A similar argument between Orono and Long Lake almost killed the Long Lake bypass.