I've been doing some research into the history of the I-39/U.S 51 (FAP 412) corridor, particularly because I want to know why the corridor wasn't built to interstate standards south of Bloomington-Normal. I travel the corridor frequently and while I enjoy the high speed Interstate 39 corridor north of Normal, I can't stand the expressway between B-Normal and Decatur. It is very poorly built, too much cross traffic, the signals in Clinton are annoying, the speed limits fluctuate too much between rural areas and towns and some of the towns are not even properly bypassed (anyone agree here?). The expressway south of Decatur is much better, but still not as nice as the full freeway between Rockford and B-Normal.
From what I can gather:
1. The original FAP 412 proposal had a U.S 51 freeway running from Rockford down to I-57 near Salem.
2. In the 1970's, due to funding and safety priorities, only the section of U.S 51 between Rockford and Decatur was prioritized
3. From some old Pantagraph articles I found, it seems there was a debate over whether or not to build the corridor between Oglesby and Normal to interstate-standards or four-lane expressway, does anyone have some insight on this?
4. I have heard conflicting reports on why U.S 51 between Bloomington and Decatur was built to an expressway as opposed to interstate-standards. One side says it was simply because of local opposition, the other side says the area simply didn't want to wait for funding to build the Interstate, plus there was no additional gain in commerce of safety standards (really? I beg to differ there) so they decided to revert to the expressway option. Again, any insight here?
The original route was Rockford to East Peoria and down what is now I-155 to Decatur . The later supplemental freeway system did have the route you mention. The SFS was pretty much scrapped by 1979 and replaced by Principal Arterials .
The 80 to 55 EIS did consider and expressway but they had the cash so it was built a freeway. Sine Decatur was already there -well ........ I was researching the switch from 51 to 39 and wondered if it happened before or after the section to Bloomington was approved. I found it was probably before AASTO must have found 90 to 80 good enough for a 2di
A 1987 Planning study looked at Decatur south and suggested a 4 lane for this low volume streach with the section to Pana first .and through town in Centralia and Vandalia. Recently and EIS for Pana to 64 was completed? It had bypasses to meat the EIS justification . Vandali does not want another bypass . Considering the expense an opposition I cant see it happening for a long time if ever . A no build option included and reconstructed 2 lane with a large number of passing lanes
Quote from: 3467 on January 16, 2015, 10:38:08 PM
The original route was Rockford to East Peoria and down what is now I-155 to Decatur . The later supplemental freeway system did have the route you mention. The SFS was pretty much scrapped by 1979 and replaced by Principal Arterials .
The 80 to 55 EIS did consider and expressway but they had the cash so it was built a freeway. Sine Decatur was already there -well ........ I was researching the switch from 51 to 39 and wondered if it happened before or after the section to Bloomington was approved. I found it was probably before AASTO must have found 90 to 80 good enough for a 2di
That's just it. If they had the cash to build to Interstate-standards from I-80 to I-55 in B-Normal, why not between Bloomington and Decatur? I believe the expressway between B-Normal and Decatur was constructed in the mid to late 1980's. Again, that stretch is terrible and ought to have been built to interstate standards.
As for the numbering, I believe it was signed as I-39 when the route was extended to I-80 around 1986.
Bloomington/Decatur was started first in 79 I think, Thompson was sort road money in 79 but there was more from his Build Illinois by 1986 . US 51,Monmouth by pass 20 and other early expressways led to new deign policies at IDOT to build interchanges when 20 traffic projects showed need for signalization. Policy is now no signals on bypasses or rural areas if at all avoidable . How many signals are there?
The most annoying thing about US 51 between Decatur and Bloomington are the at-grade intersections with IL-10 and IL-54 and railroad crossing in Clinton and the intersections immediately north of I-72 at Forsyth. Making grade-separated bypasses of Forsyth and Clinton would make the US 51 expressway so much better.
The Forsyth bypass could also make use of the ghost ramps on I-72 too.
There are at 3 stoplights on the Clinton "bypass", one at Illinois 10 and 54 respectively, and another at Business 51 on the south side of town. And in Forsyth, there are SIX stoplights before you can get to I-72. :banghead: I do remember reading something about IDOT saying they will grade-separate any intersections that would warrant traffic signals, so they broke that promise.................. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 17, 2015, 12:38:30 AM
The most annoying thing about US 51 between Decatur and Bloomington are the at-grade intersections with IL-10 and IL-54 and railroad crossing in Clinton and the intersections immediately north of I-72 at Forsyth. Making grade-separated bypasses of Forsyth and Clinton would make the US 51 expressway so much better.
The Forsyth bypass could also make use of the ghost ramps on I-72 too.
I agree, but I'd go further, they ought to rebuild the entire corridor to interstate-standards on a new alignment west of the current one, and then downgrade the current corridor back to a two lane road when finished. There are two many deficiencies in the current expressway to improve the existing corridor (the stuff you mentioned plus don't forget the lack of a bypass around Wapella). Of course, this will never happen, but it is what needs to be done.
I worked at IDOT District 3 when US 51 was being designed and built...we actually designed the 4 lane expressway section immediately south of I-74 to Shirley Road in house and I was part of the design squad. The US 136 grade separation at Heyworth was a District decision, they wanted to avoid all stoplights thru McLean County if possible (although one popped up later, just south of I-74 due to development). I recall talking to someone in District 5 about their decision to do at grade intersections in Clinton rather than grade separations like US 136, and they were really kicking themselves for that one. I believe Homer Chastain Co. of Decatur did the alignment study.
The decision to build to freeway standards between B-N and Oglesby was partly fueled by the landing of the Mitsubishi/Chrysler Diamond-Star plant in Bloomington, and Chrysler's desire for connectivity between the new plant and their Belvidere IL facility. Gov. Big Jim Thompson was the ultimate decider of doing the road to freeway standards...it was previously set to be an expressway section, and most folks at IDOT were surprised it went the other way. There was a field office set up in Wenona IL while they were acquiring land for the freeway, and was open 3 days a week so that people could come in and talk to the IDOT representatives.
I remember doing several projects on the old US 51, it was a dangerous section with many head on crashes. Maybe 8,000 ADT average. There are still about 1,000 or so on vehicles a day on the old section, now IL 251, but I-39 has far surpassed the traffic that was on the old road due to its functioning as a Chicago bypass along with I-74.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 17, 2015, 11:55:16 AM
I worked at IDOT District 3 when US 51 was being designed and built...we actually designed the 4 lane expressway section immediately south of I-74 to Shirley Road in house and I was part of the design squad. The US 136 grade separation at Heyworth was a District decision, they wanted to avoid all stoplights thru McLean County if possible (although one popped up later, just south of I-74 due to development). I recall talking to someone in District 5 about their decision to do at grade intersections in Clinton rather than grade separations like US 136, and they were really kicking themselves for that one. I believe Homer Chastain Co. of Decatur did the alignment study.
Interesting. Well, at least you guys did the right thing. :clap:
But why wasn't interstate-grade construction considered more seriously between Bloomington and Decatur? Traffic, cost, etc? It probably would've had more traffic on it than I-155 between Morton and Lincoln.........
In your research, did you find out about the ghost ramp elevations at the I-39/US-51/US-20 interchange in Rockford? I always see what looks like a cloverleaf ramp elevation from east US-20 to the west US-20 ramp from northbound I-39/US-51 :hmmm:
If I recall, the freeway was to extend north from US-20 into the city of Rockford. That section was canceled, but not before the ramps were graded.
Quote from: ET21 on January 17, 2015, 02:35:42 PM
In your research, did you find out about the ghost ramp elevations at the I-39/US-51/US-20 interchange in Rockford? I always see what looks like a cloverleaf ramp elevation from east US-20 to the west US-20 ramp from northbound I-39/US-51 :hmmm:
The ghost ramps at the I-39/U.S 20 interchange in Rockford was preparation for the never built Woodruff Expressway, which was a crosstown highway proposed to lead commercial traffic back into downtown Rockford, since all of the traffic was heading east along the I-90/Northwest (Jane Addams) Tollway. It was to be built on the old RR ROW from the Galena and Chicago Union Railroad. It was ultimately cancelled due to high opposition (not really needed if you ask me).
There was a proposal to reconstruct the I-39/U.S 20 interchange as well as the U.S 20 Harrison Avenue interchange, but that has mysteriously been taken off the IDOT website within the last year. Does anyone know what happened there?
I am primarily interested as to why the U.S 51 corridor was not built as a Interstate-grade highway south of Bloomington-Normal. I'd argue that this was probably one of the biggest mistakes IDOT made in the last half-century (right up there with not building the full Route 53 extension)
Without digging into it, I would surmise for the same reason many projects don't get done - money (to be clear, the lack of it.)
Quote from: Stratuscaster on January 17, 2015, 11:41:15 PM
Without digging into it, I would surmise for the same reason many projects don't get done - money (to be clear, the lack of it.)
I'd agree, but back in the late 70's/early 80's when FAP 412 was being planned in earnest, they had the money to build the highway to Interstate standards from Rockford to Bloomington-Normal; it was a federally designated high priority route (back in the good old days when Congress actually passed multi-year highway bills).
So I'm not quite sure why they wouldn't have had the money to build U.S 51 to Interstate standards between B-Normal and Decatur, especially when they somehow found the money to build the U.S 36 (what became I-72 west of Springfield) and Illinois 121 (I-155) corridors to full Interstate standards (both were being constructed around the same time as I-39).
Back to Rick Powell. In 1979 everybody realized the supplemental freeways were not going to happen but many of those corridors need upgrades . In 1979 IDOT as Rick Powell said was just working out its design standards for expressways . The no traffic lights really didn't show up until 67 planning began anew in the early 90s. Traffic lights were common on expressways Even now they are acceptable on through town route like Macomb and Good Hope on 67.
BTW thanks for the Thompson story -really interesting. I39 would have ended at 80. Ironically the 2 plants no longer need connecting but no one ever saw the outer Chicago bypass coming. Also and I can be correct by Rick or anyone else,but 39 was the exception ...most routes really have been below IDOTS traffic estimates I know 34 was supposed to be over 10-12,000 but its 8-9000.
The one ex-IDOT District 3 guy who would have all the programming knowledge unfortunately passed away several years ago...I guess I could ask another retired IDOT guy in Springfield who used to work in programming. What I do know is that I-39 between B-N and Oglesby was built fairly cheaply at about $450 million for everything, but it did take up a good bit of IDOT's downstate budget. IDOT was in a rather austere mode when US 51 from B-N to Decatur was being built it opened up sometime around the time that IDOT was completing the expensive IL River crossing of I-39 in the late 80's. And I-I55 was being built around the same time. I-155 had a unique situation where over half of the private property needed for the road was controlled by one family (according to IDOT's former chief of design), and a lawsuit regarding part of the property delayed its completion, but it was also being worked on and finished at about the same time as the last section of I-39 in the late 80's-early 90's. The downstate budget of 55% total (vs. District 1's budget of 45% total) may have been a limiting factor with the already dedicated downstate freeways needing everything they could scrape together to get finished, and perhaps leaving the US 51 section with an austere budget. Further complicating matters is that FAP 412 (pre-Interstate designation from B-N to Oglesby) received relatively little federal funding during its construction and relied heavily on state capital bonds (if I recall correctly).
Quote from: adamlanfort on January 17, 2015, 10:11:09 AM
There are at 3 stoplights on the Clinton "bypass", one at Illinois 10 and 54 respectively, and another at Business 51 on the south side of town. And in Forsyth, there are SIX stoplights before you can get to I-72. :banghead: I do remember reading something about IDOT saying they will grade-separate any intersections that would warrant traffic signals, so they broke that promise.................. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 17, 2015, 12:38:30 AM
The most annoying thing about US 51 between Decatur and Bloomington are the at-grade intersections with IL-10 and IL-54 and railroad crossing in Clinton and the intersections immediately north of I-72 at Forsyth. Making grade-separated bypasses of Forsyth and Clinton would make the US 51 expressway so much better.
The Forsyth bypass could also make use of the ghost ramps on I-72 too.
I agree, but I'd go further, they ought to rebuild the entire corridor to interstate-standards on a new alignment west of the current one, and then downgrade the current corridor back to a two lane road when finished. There are two many deficiencies in the current expressway to improve the existing corridor (the stuff you mentioned plus don't forget the lack of a bypass around Wapella). Of course, this will never happen, but it is what needs to be done.
In other words, turning the US 51 expressway into I-39 between Decatur and Bloomington would be a repetition of building I-55 along US 66 in the 1970s, with US 51's Clinton bypass being bypassed with an interstate bypass further to the west and, north and south of the Clinton bypass, constructing I-39's northbound lanes over US 51's southbound lane, while turning US 51's northbound lane into a frontage road. IMO, the alignment at Heyworth would require the least effort to convert to limited access since it looks like both lanes could be easily upgraded into I-39, while the alignment from Wapella south to I-72 would require the most work since I assume new ROW would have to be built.
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 25, 2015, 01:55:28 AM
Quote from: adamlanfort on January 17, 2015, 10:11:09 AM
There are at 3 stoplights on the Clinton "bypass", one at Illinois 10 and 54 respectively, and another at Business 51 on the south side of town. And in Forsyth, there are SIX stoplights before you can get to I-72. :banghead: I do remember reading something about IDOT saying they will grade-separate any intersections that would warrant traffic signals, so they broke that promise.................. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 17, 2015, 12:38:30 AM
The most annoying thing about US 51 between Decatur and Bloomington are the at-grade intersections with IL-10 and IL-54 and railroad crossing in Clinton and the intersections immediately north of I-72 at Forsyth. Making grade-separated bypasses of Forsyth and Clinton would make the US 51 expressway so much better.
The Forsyth bypass could also make use of the ghost ramps on I-72 too.
I agree, but I'd go further, they ought to rebuild the entire corridor to interstate-standards on a new alignment west of the current one, and then downgrade the current corridor back to a two lane road when finished. There are two many deficiencies in the current expressway to improve the existing corridor (the stuff you mentioned plus don't forget the lack of a bypass around Wapella). Of course, this will never happen, but it is what needs to be done.
In other words, turning the US 51 expressway into I-39 between Decatur and Bloomington would be a repetition of building I-55 along US 66 in the 1970s, with US 51's Clinton bypass being bypassed with an interstate bypass further to the west and, north and south of the Clinton bypass, constructing I-39's northbound lanes over US 51's southbound lane, while turning US 51's northbound lane into a frontage road. IMO, the alignment at Heyworth would require the least effort to convert to limited access since it looks like both lanes could be easily upgraded into I-39, while the alignment from Wapella south to I-72 would require the most work since I assume new ROW would have to be built.
No, I would build the freeway on a completely new alignment to the west of the current one, the only overlap of the existing corridor I'd do is at the U.S 136 interchange in Heyworth. For example, the freeway would start at a system interchange utilizing the existing stub ramps on I-72 on the northwest side of Decatur and travel straight north, with interchanges at County Route 20 (Forsyth), County Route 58 (Maroa), IL-54 and IL-10 (Clinton, although given there close proximity, probably could save some money and interchange only one of them, most likely IL-10), County Route 9 at Wapella, existing interchange at U.S 136 in Heyworth, Business 51 south of Bloomington and a system interchange at I-74 between the existing U.S 51 interchange and the I-55 interchange (it probably would require rebuilding and widening I-74 as well as the reconfiguration of both the existing U.S 51 interchange as well as part of the I-55 interchange).
North of Wapella, the freeway would overlap the existing U.S 51 and do so until north of Heyworth, where it would curve back towards west of the current alignment to merge into I-74 at a proper system interchange.
Of course, this will never happen, way too expensive. However, I am surprised that no one has at least considered building a proper bypass around Forsyth.
Also, if a freeway will never happen between Bloomington-Normal and Decatur, why are the ramps northwest of the city still there? Are they keeping them just in case?
Quote from: adamlanfort on January 25, 2015, 09:35:25 AM
Also, if a freeway will never happen between Bloomington-Normal and Decatur, why are the ramps northwest of the city still there? Are they keeping them just in case?
Ghost ramps, built with the intent of future construction when/if the project continues, can often be left in place for decades. It costs money to remove them, and if there's a 1% chance something might be built in the future, and the nominal cost of leaving the ramps in place is negligible, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" to the DOT's.
I agree with that ,the problems with 155 ,show the need to bank ROW when you can IDOT used to do that a lot . Now they seen cowed for fear they have created an obligation to build something
IDOT did a study for a freeway upgrade to the Monmouth bypass. I wish they had banked the land because that is there area where the only development is occurring. It will probably never need to be upgraded but for very little cost the option would be there. I know there are laws about eminent domain buying but my guess is IDOT could acquire almost all the ROW it will need in its downstate corridors without need for quick take I would think it would save on utility cost as well.
I have heard IDOT is trying to restrict direct access to all its routes which is a good idea
From an old Pantagraph article in March of 1978 titled: U.S. 51 statement called "political". I'll give you a couple of quotes because you can only view it with premium access.
In an announcement called a "political statement" by a state representative, Gov. James Thompson said Tuesday the portion of the proposed North-South Freeway from Bloomington to Decatur should not be built to interstate highway standards.
Thompson said in his announcement that building the road to less-than-interstate standards would reduce the cost of the 37-mile stretch from $120 million to $70 million and reduce by 1,400 acres the amount of land needed for the road.
Thompson said at a news conference in Decatur that the road should be constructed as a four-lane highway, including traffic lights and crossings for rural roads. That plan is a design similar to former U.S. 66, phased out for Interstate 55.
Seriously? Saving $40 million when the state spent over $100 million to build IL-121 to interstate standards between Morton and Lincoln? Why couldn't that corridor be built as an expressway? And why do you think U.S. 66 was replaced by I-55? Because a fully access-controlled facility is safer than an expressway, and it provides more economic opportunities.
The article states that this decision was made after consulting with "interested groups" in Decatur. Considering how poorly built the expressway between Bloomington and Decatur is, which probably deprives the communities in that corridor of some of the economic opportunities given to the towns north of B-Normal, I wonder if some of the parties involved regret the decision now...............
Quote from: adamlanfort on January 25, 2015, 05:47:51 PM
From an old Pantagraph article in March of 1978 titled: U.S. 51 statement called "political". I'll give you a couple of quotes because you can only view it with premium access.
In an announcement called a "political statement" by a state representative, Gov. James Thompson said Tuesday the portion of the proposed North-South Freeway from Bloomington to Decatur should not be built to interstate highway standards.
Thompson said in his announcement that building the road to less-than-interstate standards would reduce the cost of the 37-mile stretch from $120 million to $70 million and reduce by 1,400 acres the amount of land needed for the road.
Thompson said at a news conference in Decatur that the road should be constructed as a four-lane highway, including traffic lights and crossings for rural roads. That plan is a design similar to former U.S. 66, phased out for Interstate 55.
Seriously? Saving $40 million when the state spent over $100 million to build IL-121 to interstate standards between Morton and Lincoln? Why couldn't that corridor be built as an expressway? And why do you think U.S. 66 was replaced by I-55? Because a fully access-controlled facility is safer than an expressway, and it provides more economic opportunities.
The article states that this decision was made after consulting with "interested groups" in Decatur. Considering how poorly built the expressway between Bloomington and Decatur is, which probably deprives the communities in that corridor of some of the economic opportunities given to the towns north of B-Normal, I wonder if some of the parties involved regret the decision now...............
$40 million was a good deal more of a savings in 1978 than it is today. I think the late Sen. Everett Dirksen was credited with the saying, "Pretty soon you're talking about real money," and that may well be what Big Jim was trying to save. Not saying it was the right move in the end, but quite frankly perhaps it was right, right then.
Quote from: jnewkirk77 on January 26, 2015, 06:25:56 AM
Quote from: adamlanfort on January 25, 2015, 05:47:51 PM
From an old Pantagraph article in March of 1978 titled: U.S. 51 statement called "political". I'll give you a couple of quotes because you can only view it with premium access.
In an announcement called a "political statement" by a state representative, Gov. James Thompson said Tuesday the portion of the proposed North-South Freeway from Bloomington to Decatur should not be built to interstate highway standards.
Thompson said in his announcement that building the road to less-than-interstate standards would reduce the cost of the 37-mile stretch from $120 million to $70 million and reduce by 1,400 acres the amount of land needed for the road.
Thompson said at a news conference in Decatur that the road should be constructed as a four-lane highway, including traffic lights and crossings for rural roads. That plan is a design similar to former U.S. 66, phased out for Interstate 55.
Seriously? Saving $40 million when the state spent over $100 million to build IL-121 to interstate standards between Morton and Lincoln? Why couldn't that corridor be built as an expressway? And why do you think U.S. 66 was replaced by I-55? Because a fully access-controlled facility is safer than an expressway, and it provides more economic opportunities.
The article states that this decision was made after consulting with "interested groups" in Decatur. Considering how poorly built the expressway between Bloomington and Decatur is, which probably deprives the communities in that corridor of some of the economic opportunities given to the towns north of B-Normal, I wonder if some of the parties involved regret the decision now...............
$40 million was a good deal more of a savings in 1978 than it is today. I think the late Sen. Everett Dirksen was credited with the saying, "Pretty soon you're talking about real money," and that may well be what Big Jim was trying to save. Not saying it was the right move in the end, but quite frankly perhaps it was right, right then.
Well, here is the thing. I found another article from around 1976, and most people (citizens, city officials, interest groups) from Decatur actually
supported the interstate-grade construction. There were two informational meetings for the North-South Freeway, one in Normal and one in Decatur, and more support for the Interstate-grade construction was found for the segment between Bloomington and Decatur than there was between the Oglesby to Normal segment (most people were opposed to that). Additionally, they simultaneously held meetings regarding the IL-121 project, and most people were opposed to interstate-grade construction along that corridor.
Not really understanding the logic...........
Adam its Illinois often there is no logic I don't know how guys like Rick Powell could take it but that is what we have . That said I have been finding the worst traffic problems keep happening on the stretch of 39 between the Reagan and Adams. I saw truck is up to 11,000 which is the same as 80 in eastern Iowa .
Also there are Travel times for it . It seems tied for the tollway Anyone know about it . Right now northbound travel time is 94 mins as opposed to the usual 22 mins
http://www.travelmidwest.com/lmiga/map.jsp?mapname=chicagoArea
^^
Very true...............
Not building Interstate 39 south of Bloomington and not building an Interstate-grade highway along U.S 67 in Western Illinois are probably the two biggest mistakes IDOT made in the last 40-50 years outside of Chicago (don't even get me started with all the mistakes they made there......)
^ I was going to dispute the US 67 freeway a top two mistake - I was leaning towards the failure to build the East St. Louis - Marion freeway - but then I started wondering how completion of the US 67 corridor prior the start of the Avenue of the Saints planning would have worked out.
I am biased 34-67.....I think it would have helped. Corridor 67 was formed after we lost the avenue . Jacksonville really deserves the credit for it . It helps now that Oakley of the IL 110 has joined up. I am pleased that IDOT has made it upgradable from Monmouth south North of Monmouth a third lane could easily be added . The same in Wisconsin. The big problem was Wisconsin it would have been very difficult for an interstate. I can say they could add a continuous passing lane easily . The little towns are not a big slowdown but La Crosse sucks
IDOT had an opportunity right at 1970 where it could have issued a big bond and build all the supplementals for maybe 4 billion. It should have Ironically the pensions were in worse shape then. The state would have had another asset too. Right now I think 2 billion would cover everything under study ex 20. Illinois is not broke its just poorly governed
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 26, 2015, 09:39:18 PM
^ I was going to dispute the US 67 freeway a top two mistake - I was leaning towards the failure to build the East St. Louis - Marion freeway - but then I started wondering how completion of the US 67 corridor prior the start of the Avenue of the Saints planning would have worked out.
Nah, Marion to East St. Louis wasn't really necessary because you already have I-64.
Western Illinois is bereft of a North-South Interstate highway, and that has cost the area economically. Western Illinois University is an hour and a half away from the nearest Interstate. Upgrading U.S 67 to Interstate standards would have helped Western Illinois tremendously. I'm surprised it didn't get a NAFTA priority designation like U.S 67 in Missouri did. It would've been a better investment than the Peoria to Quincy highway that is currently being built/proposed.
Yes WIU is having serious enrollment problems
Quote from: 3467 on January 26, 2015, 06:49:53 PM
Adam its Illinois often there is no logic I don't know how guys like Rick Powell could take it but that is what we have . That said I have been finding the worst traffic problems keep happening on the stretch of 39 between the Reagan and Adams. I saw truck is up to 11,000 which is the same as 80 in eastern Iowa .
Also there are Travel times for it . It seems tied for the tollway Anyone know about it . Right now northbound travel time is 94 mins as opposed to the usual 22 mins
http://www.travelmidwest.com/lmiga/map.jsp?mapname=chicagoArea
I drive I-39 North of 88 daily. There was an accident at US20 causing major backups. That single lane of 39 makes it tough. District 2 has even said they are behind the curve on 39 as they did not expect the levels of traffic.
The section from US 20 to I-88 was always much more heavy than further south, due to all the Wisconsin and northern Illinois traffic heading to Iowa and points west. That was always our route of choice back in the day (90 to 88 to 80) whenever we headed from Madison to Omaha and Lincoln. This was well before the 151 and 20 expressways in SW WI and NE Iowa were a thing.
The infamous 15 cent toll booths on US 20 prior to joining the I-90 tollway were notable for backing way up at all hours of the night. I haven't traveled in the area for more than 15 years now so I don't know how things are these days, but that whole mess was classic Illinois cluster-f**k of a situation.
Before I-43 was extended south from Milwaukee, I believe the plan was to put it down WI 15 (as it would) and then route it down the new 51 freeway to make one continuous Interstate 43 from Green Bay to B-N, but Illinois balked at this.
My memory is that I-39 did not appear until the section to I-80 was finished; prior to that I believe it was just US 51.
Quote from: mrose on January 27, 2015, 03:08:02 PM
The infamous 15 cent toll booths on US 20 prior to joining the I-90 tollway were notable for backing way up at all hours of the night. I haven't traveled in the area for more than 15 years now so I don't know how things are these days, but that whole mess was classic Illinois cluster-f**k of a situation.
Those tolls were decommissioned in 2003-2004, and they were fully torn down when the tollway's Cherry Valley Interchange reconstruction project took place. That project certainly has helped, but additional improvements are needed further south.
I recently contacted IDOT regarding the status of the project that will rebuild the I-39 interchange with U.S 20 to make it two lane ramps that are high speed, reconstruct the U.S 20 Harrison Ave interchange into a DDI, and reconstruct and widen I-39/U.S 20 to six lanes from the tollway to the I-39/U.S 20 split off. They said they hope to have Final FHWA approval by early next year, but no funding is available beyond Phase I. Typical IDOT :rolleyes:
Ideally, they ought to realign I-39 to go straight towards I-90 rather than the current configuration where you have to merge on with the U.S 20 bypass. That would make it so you would exit I-39 to go on U.S 20 westbound, rather than exiting U.S 20 westbound to travel on I-39 southbound. Unfortunately, there is not enough land to do that, it would require destroying a ton of houses.
One other thing I forgot to mention here.
Do you think Decatur is suffering economically from the lack of a north-south Interstate? If I-39 had been built at least to Decatur at the stub ramps, would that have helped provide better connections north? I mean, would it save more time then having to cut over to Springfield or Champaign-Urbana?
Is the 4-lane US-51 not suitable anymore for traffic between Bloomington-Normal and Decatur?
Obviously an I-39 with limited access would speed things up a bit - but significantly more than the ~45 minutes today on US-51? Not sure there.
Quote from: Stratuscaster on February 07, 2015, 07:07:29 PM
Is the 4-lane US-51 not suitable anymore for traffic between Bloomington-Normal and Decatur?
Obviously an I-39 with limited access would speed things up a bit - but significantly more than the ~45 minutes today on US-51? Not sure there.
Not necessarily so much the travel time (it's around an hour actually), what I'm trying to say is, has Decatur suffered economically by the lack of a north-south Interstate?
As I stated, when FAP 412 was being planned in the 1970's, initially, only the area between Rockford and Decatur was high priority for construction. However, only the section between Rockford and Bloomington-Normal was constructed to Interstate-standards. It was decided by Gov. Jim Thompson (and "special interest groups") that the section between Bloomington-Normal and Decatur would simply be constructed as a four-lane expressway using the existing U.S 51. Mind you they also wanted the section between LaSalle-Peru and Bloomington-Normal to be an expressway, but leaders fought hard for an interstate road. The ironic thing is initially, there was more support for an interstate freeway between B-Normal and Decatur than there was between LaSalle-Peru and B-Normal.
The city of Decatur itself wanted U.S 51 to be built to Interstate-standards down to them, but they could not convince IDOT to do so, despite the fact that in 1980, it had a bigger population that Bloomington and Normal combined. Decatur has lost over 20,000 residents since 1980, shortly after the decision was made not to continue FAP 412 as an Interstate south of Bloomington-Normal. Decatur feared they may not be able to keep up economically, and they were right.
Rockford, LaSalle-Peru and Bloomington-Normal all benefit from Interstate 39, while Decatur (and communities further south) have suffered. Had FAP 412 been built to Interstate standards at least to Decatur, would they be suffering as much economically? I'd say no, because......
1. They'd have access to a north-south Interstate highway (even if it was just to the north), making better connectivity to the northern half of the state and making the area more attractive for businesses.
2. Even if the Interstate didn't continue south of Decatur initially (because it wasn't a high priority), if Interstate 39 ran to Decatur today, there would likely be more pressure to continue the Interstate south to I-57.
3. Extending Interstate 39 south of Bloomington-Normal through Decatur and to I-57 would cut down traffic on I-55 and I-57 and become and economic boon for Central Illinois.
I find it odd how they are pushing to four-lane U.S 51 south to Centralia for economic benefits, but in reality, not a lot of traffic will use a non-interstate U.S 51 (because it's not fully access controlled).
Decatur has really suffered from the massive decline in manufacturing. B-N would have done better anyway because it has State Farm and ISU . Sad but True
I have the IDOT planning document for south of Decatur. Decatur wants the project more than well all the rest of the area and Vandalia doesn't want the bypass so I don't know what will happen there
Quote from: 3467 on February 07, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
Decatur has really suffered from the massive decline in manufacturing. B-N would have done better anyway because it has State Farm and ISU . Sad but True
I have the IDOT planning document for south of Decatur. Decatur wants the project more than well all the rest of the area and Vandalia doesn't want the bypass so I don't know what will happen there
Again, in this situation, if it is not built to interstate standards, it's not worth it at all. As far as I know, there is no push to upgrade to interstate standards.
Right ,only the us 20 section is being studied as a freeway every other study is an expressway(or less)
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/US-51-Shelby-County
US 51 study just went up on IDOT BTW there is a gas tax push to build something
http://capitolfax.com/2015/02/05/tax-hikes-under-discussion/#comments so IDOT has kept adding goodies
Quote from: 3467 on February 08, 2015, 04:51:15 PM
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/US-51-Shelby-County
US 51 study just went up on IDOT BTW there is a gas tax push to build something
http://capitolfax.com/2015/02/05/tax-hikes-under-discussion/#comments so IDOT has kept adding goodies
Ugh, that is so annoying. mostly at-grade intersections and not even properly bypassing Vandalia. If it is not going to be built to Interstate standards, forget it, its a waste of money for a highway no one is going to use. Truckers and traffic want controlled access Interstate highways, not partial access expressways...........
I think passing lanes would be fine most of the route is under 3000 vpd and I don't see how IDOT can spend money when public support is so tepid
Quote from: 3467 on February 08, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
I think passing lanes would be fine most of the route is under 3000 vpd and I don't see how IDOT can spend money when public support is so tepid
It is low traffic because no one uses the road because it is a two lane highway. I truly believe in this case, if you extend I-39 to hook up with I-57 like originally planned, you'd see a spike in traffic. But don't build a watered down expressway.
I agree, if they don't want to build an Interstate, just construct passing lanes south of Pana and then focus on fixing U.S 51 between Bloomington and Decatur (i.e building a new freeway alignment)
I think we agree the Traffic would be from 57/24 diversion to 39 . The town of Shelbeyville argued that a long time ago too and gave up in discouragement . The alignment you (and they ) thought would work best was near the supplemental freeway plan that was far east of this study
Quote from: 3467 on February 08, 2015, 05:10:38 PM
I think we agree the Traffic would be from 57/24 diversion to 39 . The town of Shelbeyville argued that a long time ago too and gave up in discouragement . The alignment you (and they ) thought would work best was near the supplemental freeway plan that was far east of this study
I really believe the FAP 412 route is really one of the few proposed supplemental freeway routes that should have been built to full interstate standards for the entire length. I'd argue most of the supplemental freeways weren't necessary, but this one was. IDOT truly did Southern Illinois a disservice by not building it in full.
Quote from: 3467 on January 16, 2015, 10:38:08 PM
The original route was Rockford to East Peoria and down what is now I-155 to Decatur.
Interestingly enough, I found a later proposal (early 1970's) that would have connected the I-155 freeway with the proposed I-180 to Peoria freeway and signed it as I-53. But politicians feared it would have served as a substitute for FAP 412/I-39 and it was scrapped.
I don't really understand why they pushed for an Interstate between Peoria and I-80 when FAP 412/I-39 already was being planned/implemented shortly east of the corridor. What purpose would two Interstates within 20 miles of one another serve?
They were all on the supplemental and that was the route in the first plan by Wilbur Smith Associates in 66,
It was also the Kerner Curve. Gov Kerner tried to get money from the upgrade of 66 to 55 for the route through Peoria So that route had been proposed as 53 and 37 BTW 66 would have remained with at grades and stoplights instead of becoming 55
Along IL 29 There are "to" 39 signs at each bridge
I will kick the other 2 projects in the region in
US 50 Some have pushed for the whole thing but IDOTS looking at a Lebanon bypass 23 miles in the east I see no sense beyond this ex keeping all the ROW because Indian is not going to do anything
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/US-50-Expressway-Study-Project
And IL 127 which we discussed in fictional highways became what is left of 1-24 extension
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/IL-13-IL-127
Dusting off this thread.......
I found this EIS for construction on the FAP 412 (US 51) corridor from Maroa (just north of Decatur) to Bloomington.
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZc1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PR15&lpg=PR15&dq=FAP+412+Maroa+to+Bloomington&source=bl&ots=ZTVgnt4SSe&sig=3Iq3I7V4rmKns4IJxWfBDwHlbCo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjojOvshI_UAhUG0YMKHTHeAqEQ6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=VZc1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PR15&lpg=PR15&dq=FAP+412+Maroa+to+Bloomington&source=bl&ots=ZTVgnt4SSe&sig=3Iq3I7V4rmKns4IJxWfBDwHlbCo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjojOvshI_UAhUG0YMKHTHeAqEQ6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false)
It is really interesting to see that, while they state in here that the original freeway (Interstate) proposal was scrapped due to lack of funding and high opposition to the taking of large amounts of farmland, they DID seriously consider making the Clinton bypass a controlled access freeway, as Rick Powell alluded to earlier in this thread. That would have been much better for the corridor.
I wonder if a freeway would have been more seriously considered if they had waited a decade until doing the Bloomington-Decatur segment of FAP 412, since Interstate standards changed to preserve more ROW. They should have waited to see what type of roadway the Oglesby to Normal segment was going to get first before jumping to conclusions on what was needed between Bloomington and Decatur.
It's almost all four lane down to Pana now. If it reaches Vandalia and then down to I-57 around Alma and bring on a lot more thru-traffic they may have to finish those ghost ramps west of Forsyth to build a new highway around all those stoplights just north of I-72.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on May 27, 2017, 12:11:12 PM
It's almost all four lane down to Pana now. If it reaches Vandalia and then down to I-57 around Alma and bring on a lot more thru-traffic they may have to finish those ghost ramps west of Forsyth to build a new highway around all those stoplights just north of I-72.
I doubt they will ever finish the four lane south of Pana, there isn't consensus on what exactly to do. Likewise, I highly doubt anything will ever be done to fix the mistakes they made on the section of US 51 between Bloomington and Decatur. There will never be a lot of thru-traffic along US 51 between Bloomington and Southern Illinois because it is not built to Interstate standards. Most traffic coming up from the south would probably rather do I-57 to I-74 and cut over to Bloomington-Normal to pick up I-39.
https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/data_and_statistics/by_subject/freight/freight_facts_2015/chapter3/fig3_5
(Link borrowed from this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20350.0)
According to that map, the Truck Traffic anyway already uses the I-57 to I-74 connection to reach I-39 for the 57/39/US 51 North/South route
That being said, down in Carbondale, if I'm driving up to Bloomington/Normal area, or Rockford, or Central WI, or maybe even Milwaukee, I'm driving right up US 51 to Blo-No and joining I-39. Its not a bad route at all, even with the drive thru Vandalia and Centralia and the north end of Decatur
I-57 is boring, comparatively
Long-haul traffic isn't likely to get off I-57 and follow US 51 from Dongola on North, or even cut over at Salem to join US 51 North, unless there is/are problems on I-57 that warrant seeking Alternate routes
For kicks and grins, Google Maps lists 3 Hours 52 Minutes/261 Miles from Bloomington to Dongola, using I-74 and I-57, 4 Hours Flat/245 Miles using US-51 and cutting over to I-57 near Patoka and Kinmundy, 4 Hours 10 Minutes/278 Miles using I-55 (IL-4 as the connector), I-64, and I-57, and 4 Hours 13 Minutes/235 Miles using US 51 entirely
Maybe better suited for "Fictional Highways" but I'm curious how the Fictional Corridor of I-55 to (non-existent) I-24 to I-57 would compare, Time and Mileage-wise, especially if you were to bring I-24 into the "Metro East"/IL side of STL (southeast to northwest) to meet I-64 at around the Scott AFB/Mid-America Airport, then further North along the IL-4 Corridor, meeting I-55 between Worden and Livingston...Another route, serves ATL/Nashville to STL and west traffic, serves deep Southern IL with better STL access, gives distance travelers/Truckers an Alternate to reach I-39, and forms at least a small leg of an "Outer Belt" for Metro East STL
Quote from: I-39 on May 27, 2017, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on May 27, 2017, 12:11:12 PM
It's almost all four lane down to Pana now. If it reaches Vandalia and then down to I-57 around Alma and bring on a lot more thru-traffic they may have to finish those ghost ramps west of Forsyth to build a new highway around all those stoplights just north of I-72.
I doubt they will ever finish the four lane south of Pana, there isn't consensus on what exactly to do. Likewise, I highly doubt anything will ever be done to fix the mistakes they made on the section of US 51 between Bloomington and Decatur. There will never be a lot of thru-traffic along US 51 between Bloomington and Southern Illinois because it is not built to Interstate standards. Most traffic coming up from the south would probably rather do I-57 to I-74 and cut over to Bloomington-Normal to pick up I-39.
To quote a movie line, "Build it and they will come."
When an interstate is built, and the GPS/ software companies incorporate the route into the system, if it says it will save x amount of miles, the software will route them that way. Company's are so lazy, they actually force their drivers to follow the software blindly.
From some time in Northwestern University's EIS collection, it appears I-39 was going to have a rest area 'northwest of' Wenoa, but the rest area was dropped to reduce the amount of farmland impacts. The attempt to reduce farmland impacts also lead to a narrow median being used on I-39.
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 08, 2017, 08:07:26 PM
From some time in Northwestern University's EIS collection, it appears I-39 was going to have a rest area 'northwest of' Wenoa, but the rest area was dropped to reduce the amount of farmland impacts. The attempt to reduce farmland impacts also lead to a narrow median being used on I-39.
Yeah, I saw that too. It is in the Normal-Oglesby EIS that is available on Google and was in the original 1975 plans for FAP 412. A farmer complained about the necessity of it, so it was dropped. Smart move, since it really wasn't needed.
I wonder if they would have built a freeway between Bloomington and Decatur if they had waited and used the same design/ROW standards they used on the Normal-Oglesby segment. From what I read, the main reason the FAP 412 freeway was dropped between Bloomington and Decatur was because people were outraged about the amount of farmland it would have taken (per the original ROW standards from 1975). If they had used the ROW standards they used between Normal-Oglesby (narrower 54 foot median and tighter diamond interchanges), would they have cared as much?
I guess we'll never know.....