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Started by andy3175, July 20, 2016, 12:17:21 AM

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cahwyguy

Quote from: Voyager on January 07, 2025, 12:15:37 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2025, 12:11:08 AM
Quote from: FredAkbar on January 06, 2025, 12:09:45 AMI'm sure there is talk on the Fictional boards about making a tunnel freeway due south from Palmdale to Pasadena. Commute problem solved!

Why fictional when it was actually once seriously considered?

https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/09/angeles-forest-highway-los-angeles.html?m=1

I still think its wild how almost none of the freeway corridors in that area ever were built (138 comes to mind). Doesn't seem like any of those paper highways ever will be either.

WHen you look at those highways (Route 138, Route 48, all the roads through the Angeles National Forest), it is unclear whether their benefit (time savings, construction jobs) offsets the environment impact of their construction and operation. We know a lot more now about that than we did in the 1950s and 1960s.

With an engineering hat on, the better question to ask is: What is the problem that these freeways would really be solving, and are there better ways to solve that problem? If their primary purpose is to solve congestion, then the real answer is to move people to the jobs, or jobs to the people. More housing and density in the cities; more manufacturing in the high desert; more (electric) trains to transport goods; and of course completing the high speed rail, which will see a rail tunnel under the mountains.

Much as I enjoy highway history, and despite what some here will say, highways aren't always the answer -- especially when you don't really understand the question.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways


Max Rockatansky

FWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

Voyager

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

I also think making 138 a full freeway between 5 to Palmdale would help relieve a lot of 14 traffic, although it would add more to 5 as a result.
AARoads Forum Original

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Voyager on January 07, 2025, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

I also think making 138 a full freeway between 5 to Palmdale would help relieve a lot of 14 traffic, although it would add more to 5 as a result.

I don't know about that.  138 west of 14 is pretty desolate and sparsely traveled.  Really the biggest problem I see is that it isn't signed at 65 MPH but rather 55 for some reason.  I don't recall ever having issues passing anyone on that corridor. 

pderocco

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.
I've always heard that the two-lane parts from Palmdale to Phelan had a high accident rate, which could be alleviated by  creating a proper expressway, as they've been doing little by little.

The expressway plans for I-5 to CA-14 were a lot further along, I believe. Even when I lived in LA, I only went up there on weekends, when traffic was light, so I don't know how heavy the truck traffic is on the western part of CA-138 during the week. But if it's heavy enough to make it hard to pass, then that project might still be a good idea.

The plans for a freeway through Palmdale, turning into an expressway to I-15 and beyond, went nowhere. But you could say the same for the grand plans for the SoCal Logistics Airport, which still doesn't even have a rail connection. Maybe in 50 years...

emory

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

The section of SR 138 in Palmdale is actually up for relinquishment to the city as of this year. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=SHC&sectionNum=438.

cahwyguy

Quote from: emory on January 25, 2025, 01:53:11 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

The section of SR 138 in Palmdale is actually up for relinquishment to the city as of this year. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=SHC&sectionNum=438.

It is authorized for relinquishment. "Up for relinquishment" would mean that it is in front of the CTC. Normally, that means there would be a SHOPP project to either repair the road or give money to the city to do the same. After that, the road would be relinquished. Those are things I note on my pages, and I haven't seen those yet.

The CTC is authorized to relinquish it, but hasn't done so yet.
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

pderocco

I wonder if they'll actually maintain signage to the continuation of route 138, unlike so many sloppy cities. They'd be needed on the 14 freeway, and then at 47th St, or people not familiar with the area would get lost.

mrsman

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 07, 2025, 04:28:44 PMFWIW I don't think 138 is all that bad east of Palmdale to I-15.  Where it is actually bad is within Palmdale itself.  The problem probably could be solved by making rebuilding Pearblossom Highway as a true Palmdale bypass.

I agree.  I think the section of Pearblossom between Fort Tejon and CA-14 should be labeled (at the very least) as a county highway, if not simply moving CA-138 onto it. 

Even though it's more mileage, its probably a lot quicker to use Pearblossom than driving through central Palmdale.  Another compromise routing might involve Ave S, which has an exit on CA-14 and would still be quicker than using Palmdale Blvd.

It seems like CA is doing a poor job of reserving right of way in these areas.  A right of way for an east-west freeway through Palmdale would be very useful for building a road once development makes it out that far.  Imagine if there was a right of way parallel to Ave S between CA-14 and Fort Tejon.  That would be a wonderful corridor for CA-138 traffic and for a lot of Metropolitan Bypass traffic.  Extend the highway further east as Palmdale development grows further (maybe a new highway number).  It wasn't that long ago that most of the Palmdale area had a lot of empty spots for highway development, especially east of 35th. 

pderocco

Quote from: mrsman on January 26, 2025, 04:47:55 PMIt seems like CA is doing a poor job of reserving right of way in these areas.  A right of way for an east-west freeway through Palmdale would be very useful for building a road once development makes it out that far.  Imagine if there was a right of way parallel to Ave S between CA-14 and Fort Tejon.  That would be a wonderful corridor for CA-138 traffic and for a lot of Metropolitan Bypass traffic.  Extend the highway further east as Palmdale development grows further (maybe a new highway number).  It wasn't that long ago that most of the Palmdale area had a lot of empty spots for highway development, especially east of 35th. 
There is ROW for that, just north of P-8/Technology Dr, which was the proposed route for the High Desert Corridor. Plenty of room for a Y interchange too. Looks like only a truck parking lot and one little business in the way around 10th St E. The difference is that it doesn't lead to Fort Tejon, it goes E to connect to Air Expressway and the Southern California Logistics Airport, which might actually get some significant business if it had a freeway or expressway connection to I-15. That would be a little less useful for getting to the Cajon Pass, but more useful for getting to Vegas. Does more truck traffic go east on I-10 or I-40? I don't know.

bing101

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dixon-parkway-boulevard-overcrossing-project-233534252.html

Dixon, California current status on the Parkway blvd overpass project.

emory

I noticed on the maps Wikipedia uses, the former CA 58 bypassed near Kramer Junction in San Bernardino county is now labeled as CA 58U. Is there an official list of state highway logs that reflects this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=U.S._Route_395_in_California&oldid=1243820034#/map/0

oscar

^ FWIW, Caltrans' Postmile Query Tool indicates that bypassed old CA 58 in the Kramer Junction area is still state-maintained route 58U, rather than turned over to local maintenance. However, when I was last out there it was not signed as such or as part of locally-maintained CA 58 Business (Boron).
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

pderocco

My guess is that this is very temporary, until they do the necessary rigamarole to relinquish the road to the county, and it will never be signed. Perhaps there was a short period in which Old Highway 58 through Hinkley was called 58U, and no one noticed.

cahwyguy

Quote from: emory on February 14, 2025, 02:28:44 AMI noticed on the maps Wikipedia uses, the former CA 58 bypassed near Kramer Junction in San Bernardino county is now labeled as CA 58U. Is there an official list of state highway logs that reflects this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=U.S._Route_395_in_California&oldid=1243820034#/map/0

Your best bet on logs is the state GIS databases, in particular the State Highway Network Lines: https://gisdata-caltrans.opendata.arcgis.com/search?tags=Highway . Going the other direction, there's the postmile tool: https://postmile.dot.ca.gov/PMQT/PostmileQueryTool.html? . There's also the postmile tenths database: https://gisdata-caltrans.opendata.arcgis.com/search?tags=Highway
Daniel - California Highway Guy ● Highway Site: http://www.cahighways.org/ ●  Blog: http://blog.cahighways.org/ ● Podcast (CA Route by Route): http://caroutebyroute.org/ ● Follow California Highways on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cahighways

ClassicHasClass

Not signed as 58U, at least when I was out there a couple weeks ago. I'll check again on Monday when I'm on my Central Valley route.

It should be noted that at least some portion of that stretch along Twenty Mule Team Rd had T postmiles when it was still CA 58, so it was never intended as part of the long-term alignment.

emory

#2516
Quote from: oscar on February 14, 2025, 03:06:08 AM^ FWIW, Caltrans' Postmile Query Tool indicates that bypassed old CA 58 in the Kramer Junction area is still state-maintained route 58U, rather than turned over to local maintenance. However, when I was last out there it was not signed as such or as part of locally-maintained CA 58 Business (Boron).

Thanks. This is a good resource. I don't expect them to sign it. I'm still surprised they signed 14U. I was also curious to see how Caltrans logs the Colorado Street Freeway in LA/Glendale and was surprised to see it's on the books as Route 5S and not something like 134U since it used to be Route 134. Also noticed a Route 101U exists near Willits.

Quote from: pderocco on February 14, 2025, 05:03:45 AMMy guess is that this is very temporary, until they do the necessary rigamarole to relinquish the road to the county, and it will never be signed. Perhaps there was a short period in which Old Highway 58 through Hinkley was called 58U, and no one noticed.

Probably! It's interesting to me that these high desert bypasses aren't requiring any amendments to the Streets and Highways Code or deeming the former highways ineligible for adoption under Section 81, but the bypasses through Bakersfield are, as is what's left of 14U.

Max Rockatansky

14U is arguably the best mile for mile signed surface state highway in the Los Angeles area.

Plutonic Panda

Parts of Topanga Canyon are buried again in mud after slides. Anyone know if CA-2 in mountains or anywhere else in SoCal had slides from the recent storms?

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 15, 2025, 05:32:35 PMParts of Topanga Canyon are buried again in mud after slides. Anyone know if CA-2 in mountains or anywhere else in SoCal had slides from the recent storms?

CA 330

https://www.facebook.com/100064366222365/posts/pfbid02vcivfRT5YghUnH4nLxCnTcssbRBm9Ag4yYtEeD7DxRbPNopPrCq2oe8nwgg5C1j2l/?mibextid=wwXIfr


Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2025, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 15, 2025, 05:32:35 PMParts of Topanga Canyon are buried again in mud after slides. Anyone know if CA-2 in mountains or anywhere else in SoCal had slides from the recent storms?

CA 330

https://www.facebook.com/100064366222365/posts/pfbid02vcivfRT5YghUnH4nLxCnTcssbRBm9Ag4yYtEeD7DxRbPNopPrCq2oe8nwgg5C1j2l/?mibextid=wwXIfr


Ouch. At least they're gonna have that open relatively soon. If memory serves right topanga canyon was shut down for almost a month or more last time. I wonder what those people did when that happened. I guess at that point you just stay in your car and ride it out?

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 15, 2025, 06:49:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2025, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 15, 2025, 05:32:35 PMParts of Topanga Canyon are buried again in mud after slides. Anyone know if CA-2 in mountains or anywhere else in SoCal had slides from the recent storms?

CA 330

https://www.facebook.com/100064366222365/posts/pfbid02vcivfRT5YghUnH4nLxCnTcssbRBm9Ag4yYtEeD7DxRbPNopPrCq2oe8nwgg5C1j2l/?mibextid=wwXIfr


Ouch. At least they're gonna have that open relatively soon. If memory serves right topanga canyon was shut down for almost a month or more last time. I wonder what those people did when that happened. I guess at that point you just stay in your car and ride it out?

Getting out of your car would immediately make the situation far worse.  The best bet would be waiting on some sort of emergency response.

GaryA

I noticed that Google Maps is showing a Business I-5 through Coalinga (following CA 33 and Jayne). That's much more of a detour than most business routes (though I understand Coalinga trying to get additional traffic).

I just drove that and didn't see any actual signage - is it a real business route, or just something Google got into its brain?

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: GaryA on February 17, 2025, 02:31:18 PMI noticed that Google Maps is showing a Business I-5 through Coalinga (following CA 33 and Jayne). That's much more of a detour than most business routes (though I understand Coalinga trying to get additional traffic).

I just drove that and didn't see any actual signage - is it a real business route, or just something Google got into its brain?


I saw that too the other day. It isn't real, but there is signage indicating how to get to I-5 from downtown Coalinga.

pderocco

Google is so polluted with fictional route designations. Where do these fanciful ideas come from? Is there some group of road geeks working at Google that just imposes their fantasies on the map, perhaps hoping that somehow their dreams will come true?



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