Coming home from the Memphis Roadmeet, I took some time to clinch the rest of the US Routes in Tennessee. I was mostly missing 72, but also part of Summer Ave. I first drove out US 72 to Mississippi, then turned around and came back through town. The best way to describe the signage in Memphis is a clusterf*ck. 72 appears to end at Parkway, though it supposedly doesn't, but there are no signs in any direction except for TN 277 (and no signs for 64/70/79 south of Summer until you get to Union).
Summer Ave seems to be a hodgepodge of partial signage and erroneous signage. US 51 is co-signed with 64/70/79 before you get to 51. Same with US 61.
If you blink, you'll miss the single US 64 sign at 2nd Street that shows you need to turn.
There is one sign pointing straight ahead for US 78 on 2nd Street, but no sign at the actual junction.
It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through town.
TDOT would rather focus on Nashville and tends to ignore anything that has an effect on Memphis. Also, the city itself being broke doesn't help.
What condition are Memphis's highways in (State Routes/US Highways/Interstates)? Does TDOT ensure they are in good shape?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 15, 2019, 03:10:15 PM
What condition are Memphis's highways in (State Routes/US Highways/Interstates)? Does TDOT ensure they are in good shape?
I didn't think they were too terribly bad. The room for improvement is never full, but I have seen worse.
Quote from: US71It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through town.
Hence the condition of Lamar Avenue just North of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. US-78 through there obviously should have been built as a freeway considering all the industrial facilities, trucking facilities and freight-rail inter-modal facilities adjacent to it. And then Memphis International Airport and the main Fed-Ex hub is nearby as well. Of course that might risk putting more traffic onto I-55 and the clunky old, narrow 4-lane bridge across the Mississippi. The lawmakers over in Nashville are going to have to deal with that issue at some point. They can kick the can only so far into the future. I guess maybe they're looking at waiting until the old structure finally collapses.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 15, 2019, 04:52:56 PM
Quote from: US71It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through town.
Hence the condition of Lamar Avenue just North of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. US-78 through there obviously should have been built as a freeway considering all the industrial facilities, trucking facilities and freight-rail inter-modal facilities adjacent to it. And then Memphis International Airport and the main Fed-Ex hub is nearby as well. Of course that might risk putting more traffic onto I-55 and the clunky old, narrow 4-lane bridge across the Mississippi. The lawmakers over in Nashville are going to have to deal with that issue at some point. They can kick the can only so far into the future. I guess maybe they're looking at waiting until the old structure finally collapses.
And then all three states, the City of Memphis, and the local MPO can form what would essentially be a circular firing squad and toss blame at each other for kicking the 3rd bridge idea so far into the distant future to be a nonentity! :pan:
Quote from: US71 on April 15, 2019, 01:56:28 PM
It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through any major town.
FIFY.
Tennessee's city signage has always been horrible. Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, Chattanooga -- hard to follow the signed US routes through any of those cities. I was surprised to see US 11/70 signed through Knoxville as well as it was when I was there last year.
Quote from: sparker on April 15, 2019, 07:22:54 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 15, 2019, 04:52:56 PM
Quote from: US71It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through town.
Hence the condition of Lamar Avenue just North of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. US-78 through there obviously should have been built as a freeway considering all the industrial facilities, trucking facilities and freight-rail inter-modal facilities adjacent to it. And then Memphis International Airport and the main Fed-Ex hub is nearby as well. Of course that might risk putting more traffic onto I-55 and the clunky old, narrow 4-lane bridge across the Mississippi. The lawmakers over in Nashville are going to have to deal with that issue at some point. They can kick the can only so far into the future. I guess maybe they're looking at waiting until the old structure finally collapses.
And then all three states, the City of Memphis, and the local MPO can form what would essentially be a circular firing squad and toss blame at each other for kicking the 3rd bridge idea so far into the distant future to be a nonentity! :pan:
I could see that happening in about 20-25 years.
OT, the city of Memphis must seriously be broke? Because I haven't seen any new high rises built there in the last 30 years??? I think Autozone park was the largest development built there in that timeframe??? Correct me if I'm wrong???
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 15, 2019, 04:52:56 PM
Quote from: US71It's almost as if Memphis or TDOT doesn't want you going through town.
Hence the condition of Lamar Avenue just North of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. US-78 through there obviously should have been built as a freeway considering all the industrial facilities, trucking facilities and freight-rail inter-modal facilities adjacent to it. And then Memphis International Airport and the main Fed-Ex hub is nearby as well. Of course that might risk putting more traffic onto I-55 and the clunky old, narrow 4-lane bridge across the Mississippi. The lawmakers over in Nashville are going to have to deal with that issue at some point. They can kick the can only so far into the future. I guess maybe they're looking at waiting until the old structure finally collapses.
They should have upgraded Lamar Ave to a controlled access facility beginning in the early 1970's. Of course, we all know hindsight is 20/20.
Now, Lamar Avenue is a nightmare to get through. It does get better once you get close to Mississippi (has a couple of grade separations) but right off of I-240, its downright horrible.
How hard would it be to improve highway signage in Memphis anyway? Is TDOT too cash-strapped or too lazy to give the many highways that go through the city better signage?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:13:12 PM
How hard would it be to improve highway signage in Memphis anyway? Is TDOT too cash-strapped or too lazy to give the many highways that go through the city better signage?
Seems that for reasons ranging from political to sheer apathy, the TN state government and its subordinate agencies -- including TDOT, of course -- tend to put Memphis at the bottom of their priority lists. But they seem only too willing (within limits) to enhance the area
around the periphery -- almost encouraging outward movement to the 'burbs -- constructing TN 385 -- even pre-I-269 re-designation -- attests to that, particularly in regard to the E-W section from I-240 to I-269. But they'll gladly finance TN/I-840, the I-26 facility south into NC, or anything else that crops up in the central and eastern part of the state.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 15, 2019, 03:10:15 PM
What condition are Memphis's highways in (State Routes/US Highways/Interstates)? Does TDOT ensure they are in good shape?
As bad every other state I've been in this year (Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa)
Quote from: Tomahawkin on April 16, 2019, 04:02:58 PM
OT, the city of Memphis must seriously be broke? Because I haven't seen any new high rises built there in the last 30 years??? I think Autozone park was the largest development built there in that timeframe??? Correct me if I'm wrong???
Quite a bit is going on in downtown Memphis but I doubt anything over 25 stories.
https://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/news/2019/04/02/clipper-developer-seeks-height-exception-special.html?iana=hpmvp_memp_news_headline#g/449779/1
Quote
On Feb. 12, FedEx Logistics CEO Richard Smith said his company will occupy part of the Clipper, as well as the old Gibson factory, creating an "office campus" that Smith expects would eventually host at least 1,000 employees of the operating company.
The hotel will be developed in partnership with Senate Hospitality, owners of the Westin Beale Street, located just a block away. Senate is currently considering multiple brands for the hotel.
Then there's the billion buck Union Row project. They completed a big property buy last week
https://amp-commercialappeal-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.commercialappeal.com/amp/1975792002?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.commercialappeal.com%2Fstory%2Fmoney%2F2018%2F11%2F12%2Funion-row-memphis-5-things-know-downtown-development%2F1975792002%2F
And then there's the new convention center Hotel drama eith there's going to be a new 30 story Lowes or 100 North Main gets redo into a hotel or maybe both.
Thanks for the 411. I find it baffling that not much has been developed around Beale? I love Beale St almost as much as Bourbon st...
Quote from: Tomahawkin on April 17, 2019, 12:24:39 PM
Thanks for the 411. I find it baffling that not much has been developed around Beale? I love Beale St almost as much as Bourbon st...
Well, there's Servicemaster HQ that relocated to the Peabody Place building. FedEx Logistics going into the Gibson Guitar building and that development I linked. One Beale has finally broke ground althought the office tower part's height is unknown and it it the last phase. You had the Chicsa dedevelopment, the Memphis Brewery dedevelopment, the Old Dommicks distillery and the new Malco theater all very near Beale.
They'll be adding more docking to Beale Landing cause VikingCruises is on again with a400 passenger ship due in 2021 and a second in 2023. The Conventuon Center getting nearly 300 million redo plus the plans St Jude has for its substantial TE holdings in the Pinch. There's literally billions in the works for Downtown Memphis. It just flys underneather the radar
Anybody care to breakdown the reasons behind the disdain Tennessee has always seemed to have for Memphis?
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain. Never mind the positive history Memphis gives to the rest of Tennessee regarding its influence upon popular American culture. The folks in Nashville and even the folks in Knoxville look down their noses at Memphis as if it is the anus of the state. Of course, there is no shortage of criminals within Memphis trying to make the city live down to that reputation. But the whole thing is kind of a self perpetuating circle. If you have a major American city struggling from neglect you can't really expect the city to improve by doubling down on that whole "let's neglect the living hell out of the place" angle.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain. Never mind the positive history Memphis gives to the rest of Tennessee regarding its influence upon popular American culture. The folks in Nashville and even the folks in Knoxville look down their noses at Memphis as if it is the anus of the state. Of course, there is no shortage of criminals within Memphis trying to make the city live down to that reputation. But the whole thing is kind of a self perpetuating circle. If you have a major American city struggling from neglect you can't really expect the city to improve by doubling down on that whole "let's neglect the living hell out of the place" angle.
It doesn't help when they elect the likes of Steve Cohen as their US Rep. I'm a conservative but I know that will never happen and I miss the days of pragmatic Congressmen like Harold Ford Jr in spite of the sins of his elders.
Memphis is at a crossroads yet again. It got it's knees stable under Wharton and is starting to punch back with Strickland. But, guess who is running again after the scandal and shame has faded, King Willy.
The new Gov gave Memphis 10 million of his 60 million in FU funds to the Tom Lee Park redo. I'm worried over how it might negatively effect the Music Fest which is a huge draw to Memphis but there is some promise in it
I have long said that Memphis should study Tivoli Park in Copenhagen for Mud Island. Elements are already there with the River Walk, Amp, Museum that needs some love, ect.
Modernize the Amp, go for signature architectural open air roof that preserves skyline sighlines (Think Sydney Opra House.
Update the Museum, add a flying Theater like Soarin' at Epcot to fly the Whole length of the River.
Add a foot bridge to Beale Street Landing, Add an Aquarium to southern End , make ita part of the Memphis Zoo and use combo tickets. Possible Boutique Hotel with exclusive aqaurium room windows
Like Tivoli, add a small amount of rides that make proper use of limited space in the area between the current museum and the New Bridge in a 1800s ornamental iron style, with hints of steampunk, think the iron works on the paddlewheelers.
This replaces a regional void left by Libertyland going away under King Willy. There are well over 2 million people in a 3to 4 hr drive of Memphis.
Add more botantic appeal all over. Possible European style Christmas market over the Island in Nov and Dec aling with massive lights to generate near year round appeal for most of island.
Admission to the Island stays free but aqaurium, musem, rides, concerts are a la carte od comnation tickets. No season passes, It does not need to be a babysitter.
Add an Egyptian themed indoor waterpar resort around the northern end of Downtown (Pinch, St. Jude area) and Memphis becomes a great weekend get away for Families to help drive some tourism beside music.
Quote from: UptownRoadGeek on April 17, 2019, 08:58:28 PM
Anybody care to breakdown the reasons behind the disdain Tennessee has always seemed to have for Memphis?
Until the mid 90s it was the "business city" of Tennessee. The shift happenes when Conservatives get control post Mcwhorter and the Democratic hold was broke. Memphis Politicians lost any influence they had, they then elected a Mayor that became a plague that wouldn't cure.
There was a pivotal point for Memphis in the late 80's. They got cheap on their NFL expansion push and decided to renovate the Liberty Bowl, Jacksonville made a better pitch on stadium renos. Jacksonville get it by the slimist of margins. It cemented the minor league mentality of Memphis for many. Had Memphis Offered up a new stadium like would have likely got that franchise and while the team may or may not have been successful it would have elevated the standing of the city. It's wnership would have been rock solid as well. Hyde and Fogelman family led the charge.
I will contend that Nashville also got a break when AA dehubbed BNA. That allowed Southwest to move in a grow it. MEM was the last major dehub after the consolidations(although Delta killing CVG by a thousand cuts). That cost MEM bigtimw. Southwest had firmly established itself in peer cities like New Orleans, Nashville and St. Louis, Memphis was the odd man out.
Arkansas hasn't helped with it's neglect of East Arkansas. I think the lack of a true outer circle of Memphis proper has held it back. That is why I would love to see a north bridge and south bridge. To complete a loop of Memphis.
There is a folklore that in the early 80s Southwest approched Arkansas about expanding the West Memphis airport to handle commercial passenger traffic. It wanted the then healthy Memphis market and this would be as close it could get with the WA restrictions to connect directly to Dallas.
Clinton and Little Rock killed it because they wanted to protect LIT. If this tale is true, and the people that told it in the day, say it was, imagine the what ifs.
Same what ifs if the race car track owner had spent 50k and paved that 'then' dirt superspeedway there at Lehi. You can still see it from I-40 just to the south.
Quote from: UptownRoadGeek on April 17, 2019, 08:58:28 PM
Anybody care to breakdown the reasons behind the disdain Tennessee has always seemed to have for Memphis?
Nm.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain.
:-D :-D :-D :-D
That's funny.
Every state has places that whine and cry over a perceived "neglect." In North Carolina, Charlotte cries that the Triangle and Triad get all the attention. Here in Kentucky, Louisville has an inferiority complex, saying that Lexington, northern Kentucky, and the rural areas of the state are held in higher regard.
Quote from: Wayward Memphian on April 18, 2019, 09:45:52 AM
There is a folklore that in the early 80s Southwest approched Arkansas about expanding the West Memphis airport to handle commercial passenger traffic. It wanted the then healthy Memphis market and this would be as close it could get with the WA restrictions to connect directly to Dallas.
Clinton and Little Rock killed it because they wanted to protect LIT. If this tale is true, and the people that told it in the day, say it was, imagine the what ifs.
I just got into Memphis a couple of hours ago, and am currently camped out in my father's (retired from 40+ years in the Shelby County planning department) apartment.
He says that the West Memphis airport proposal never really got much past the spit-balling stage. It's probably not right to give then-Governor Clinton credit for killing the idea, but his lack of support certainly didn't help.
In terms of the disdain of the state towards Memphis....Tennessee has always been somewhat culturally divided along the grand divisions of the state, with some disdain being felt towards the "other" divisions. However East TN and Middle TN are more similar to one another than West TN, so....
The vibrant African-American culture in Memphis in the late 1800's up to the Great Depression also didn't help with Memphis' reputation with the rest of the state.
Factor in differences in population density, and Memphis' proximity to Arkansas and Mississippi, the local economic doldrums of the past few decades, scars from the Civil Rights Era and continued issues with racism, and significant differences between Memphis' political preferences in the past 20 years vs the rest of the state.....
The replies about Memphis are spot on. There are only a handful of democrats in Tennessee and the vast majority are elected out of Memphis.
As a non-resident of Memphis and casual observer, here is my 2 cents.
Being on the river, Memphis was (at one time) a major commerical hub. This then brought the railroads maintaining its commercial status.
East Tennessee used to be considered "neglected" post WW2, (all the alum and nylon plants closing) isn't that why Knoxville got the World Expo? To bring commerce eastward?
From an economic perspective, Nashville is booming, especially in and around Franklin. I don't think it was about NFL or hockey or anything like that. Nashville offered a midrange economy, semi-mild winters and relatively cheap real estate.
Knoxville continues to grow due to nearby tourism in Gatlinburg, Dollywood, the Smokeys etc. It draws in people from the east coast.
Today Memphis isn't known as a river hub or a rail hub anymore, though it does serve as a major east-west rail gateway. It is known generally for music, Elvis and FedEx. Not many people know about the Memphis Belle anymore. The Pyramid had weeds growing. Sports came through the Griz and the Tigers. But unless you are a music fanatic, it doesn't translate into a tourism destination.
Interesting that someone mentioned Jacksonville Florida. Like Memphis, it used to be the business, political and military hub of Florida. Today the last high rise building was built in the 1980's. It used to have at least 5 Fortune 500 HQ's. It doesn't do tourism like the rest of Florida and is only known by its only Tier 1 sports team the Jaguars. But since the end of the Cold War, it has lost a large part of its military economy (just like NAS Memphis was demoted to JB Millington). Most of the corporate HQ have relocated to Tampa or Miami. Most of the manufacturing it housed at one time has left and been replaced with assembly and warehouses on the fringe of town. The only thing Jacksonville was able to carry over was banking and insurance. Today, Bank of America, Deutsche Bank and Chase all have major operations there.
There has to be something more that Memphis has retained or is developing at a lower level that can be exposed externally more effectively, and don't say the casinos @ Tunica.
Quote from: edwaleni on April 18, 2019, 05:14:27 PM
As a non-resident of Memphis and casual observer, here is my 2 cents.
Being on the river, Memphis was (at one time) a major commerical hub. This then brought the railroads maintaining its commercial status.
East Tennessee used to be considered "neglected" post WW2, (all the alum and nylon plants closing) isn't that why Knoxville got the World Expo? To bring commerce eastward?
From an economic perspective, Nashville is booming, especially in and around Franklin. I don't think it was about NFL or hockey or anything like that. Nashville offered a midrange economy, semi-mild winters and relatively cheap real estate.
Knoxville continues to grow due to nearby tourism in Gatlinburg, Dollywood, the Smokeys etc. It draws in people from the east coast.
Today Memphis isn't known as a river hub or a rail hub anymore, though it does serve as a major east-west rail gateway. It is known generally for music, Elvis and FedEx. Not many people know about the Memphis Belle anymore. The Pyramid had weeds growing. Sports came through the Griz and the Tigers. But unless you are a music fanatic, it doesn't translate into a tourism destination.
Interesting that someone mentioned Jacksonville Florida. Like Memphis, it used to be the business, political and military hub of Florida. Today the last high rise building was built in the 1980's. It used to have at least 5 Fortune 500 HQ's. It doesn't do tourism like the rest of Florida and is only known by its only Tier 1 sports team the Jaguars. But since the end of the Cold War, it has lost a large part of its military economy (just like NAS Memphis was demoted to JB Millington). Most of the corporate HQ have relocated to Tampa or Miami. Most of the manufacturing it housed at one time has left and been replaced with assembly and warehouses on the fringe of town. The only thing Jacksonville was able to carry over was banking and insurance. Today, Bank of America, Deutsche Bank and Chase all have major operations there.
There has to be something more that Memphis has retained or is developing at a lower level that can be exposed externally more effectively, and don't say the casinos @ Tunica.
Memphis still a frieght rail hub. Several huge intermodal facilities. The base closure effected Raleigh mostly as many officers had houses there over living in Millington proper. I know, I went to Craigmont in the day and we had many Officer kids in attendance.
It's interesting I was reading today that Hilton is adding hundreds of acccounting jobs in Memphis. Their campus is smack dab in the middle of East Memphis. There is lots more positive happening in Memphis than negative. St. Jude has billion dollar expansion plans.
Some have taken notive
http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/38980999/is-memphis-the-next-big-city
Quote from: hbelkins on April 18, 2019, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain.
:-D :-D :-D :-D
That's funny.
Every state has places that whine and cry over a perceived "neglect." In North Carolina, Charlotte cries that the Triangle and Triad get all the attention. Here in Kentucky, Louisville has an inferiority complex, saying that Lexington, northern Kentucky, and the rural areas of the state are held in higher regard.
In Wisconsin that's nearly every place besides Milwaukee and Madison. Lots of politicians seem to have a vendetta against those two cities.
Quote from: Tomahawkin on April 17, 2019, 12:24:39 PM
Thanks for the 411. I find it baffling that not much has been developed around Beale? I love Beale St almost as much as Bourbon st...
Worst evaluation of Beale Street ever published...
https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/gradschool_theses/3244/
Quote from: Wayward Memphian on April 17, 2019, 03:48:45 PM
Quote from: Tomahawkin on April 17, 2019, 12:24:39 PM
Thanks for the 411. I find it baffling that not much has been developed around Beale? I love Beale St almost as much as Bourbon st...
Well, there's Servicemaster HQ that relocated to the Peabody Place building. FedEx Logistics going into the Gibson Guitar building and that development I linked. One Beale has finally broke ground althought the office tower part's height is unknown and it it the last phase. You had the Chicsa dedevelopment, the Memphis Brewery dedevelopment, the Old Dommicks distillery and the new Malco theater all very near Beale.
When I moved to Memphis in 1978, Beale Street was shell of its former self -- a bunch of propped up facades in the middle of a bunch of weed-filled lots cleared in the name of urban redevelopment.
Looking at Beale Street now, and all the redevelopment in the southern end of downtown....it's amazing. And there does seem to be an optimistic attitude manifesting in the "Choose 901" movement that was missing during my days growing up. Some of what's going on today with the redevelopment of the Crosstown area is impressive.
If the area can do something about crime levels, manage resistance against gentrification, and find a new economic base....
"Manage resistance against gentrification"? What is that supposed to mean?
Gentrification is not a 100% positive thing. The process that has played out in cities like New York has a very sinister side. While New York City's overall crime rate, particularly in violent crimes like murder, is a mere fraction of what it once was, the city's rate of homelessness has ballooned. Now we have the absurd situation of working homeless: people who are full time employed or even working multiple jobs yet live at crowded shelters or bounce from one friend's couch to the next. They can't afford the extreme prices of housing and don't have enough money to escape to a city or town with a lower cost of living.
The housing market in New York City and certain other large US metros have turned into a speculative free for all. Global investors are getting in on the action. NYC has all sorts of widespread fraud going on with developers running schemes to kick long time residents out of rent-controlled housing so it can be renovated and flipped as luxury housing.
What needs to happen in Memphis is improvement in various neighborhoods that doesn't translate to kicking out all the people who are elderly, poor and/or black.
^ Best way to address the "gentrification" and "working homeless" issues is to build more housing in the city. Also, ironically, the best way to preserve historic neighborhoods in those cities, but those residents would rather be NIMBYs citing traffic and population and crowded schools and whatnot.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 19, 2019, 11:44:42 AM
"Manage resistance against gentrification"? What is that supposed to mean?
Gentrification is not a 100% positive thing. The process that has played out in cities like New York has a very sinister side. While New York City's overall crime rate, particularly in violent crimes like murder, is a mere fraction of what it once was, the city's rate of homelessness has ballooned. Now we have the absurd situation of working homeless: people who are full time employed or even working multiple jobs yet live at crowded shelters or bounce from one friend's couch to the next. They can't afford the extreme prices of housing and don't have enough money to escape to a city or town with a lower cost of living.
The housing market in New York City and certain other large US metros have turned into a speculative free for all. Global investors are getting in on the action. NYC has all sorts of widespread fraud going on with developers running schemes to kick long time residents out of rent-controlled housing so it can be renovated and flipped as luxury housing.
What needs to happen in Memphis is improvement in various neighborhoods that doesn't translate to kicking out all the people who are elderly, poor and/or black.
I was writing in a bit of a rush; my apologies.
That last sentence "improvement in various neighborhoods...that doesn't translate..." is actually exactly what I mean.
Memphis is in a process of launching a new "Memphis 2050" master plan. I recall that there was a significant bit of resistance to it from a neighborhood group in one of the more neglected sections of town because of the fear of full-fledged gentrification, etc.
Contrast that to the redevelopment in Crosstown, where there has been quite a bit of success in pre-redevelopment businesses remaining in the neighborhood, long-time owners getting access to funding assistance to improve their homes, resisting the pressure to sell out to developers and speculators, etc.
I've never understood why Tennessee seems to be so much better off economically than Kentucky, given the similarities in terrain and demographics.
Tennessee has four major cities; Kentucky has two (three if you want to count suburban Cincinnati as one entity). Tennessee has more mid-major cities (Jackson, Murfreesboro, Cookeville, Johnson City, Kingsport and Bristol come to mind) over Kentucky (Paducah, Owensboro, Bowling Green, Ashland, Richmond).
Most everyone points to Tennessee's lack of an income tax, but sales taxes are exorbitant. And Kentucky's income tax isn't exactly high. Top rate of around 5 percent.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 19, 2019, 07:29:45 PM
I've never understood why Tennessee seems to be so much better off economically than Kentucky, given the similarities in terrain and demographics.
Tennessee has four major cities; Kentucky has two (three if you want to count suburban Cincinnati as one entity). Tennessee has more mid-major cities (Jackson, Murfreesboro, Cookeville, Johnson City, Kingsport and Bristol come to mind) over Kentucky (Paducah, Owensboro, Bowling Green, Ashland, Richmond).
Most everyone points to Tennessee's lack of an income tax, but sales taxes are exorbitant. And Kentucky's income tax isn't exactly high. Top rate of around 5 percent.
The Tennessee Valley Authority built many dams across the state for the primary purpose of flood control, but had the very positive side effect of generating lots of cheap electricity. Kentucky's electricity generation is primarily from coal-fired power plants, which cost more. Western KY is the exception here due to Kentucky and Barkley Dams.
Tennessee is also a right-to-work state, something I believe Kentucky is not.
Starting with Lamar Alexander in 1978, Tennessee has had a long history of strong, effective leadership in the governor's office (with the notable exception of Don Sundquist). During that time period, Kentucky suffered through quite a few miserable one-term governors, most notably John Y. Brown, Wallace Wilkinson, and Brereton Jones.
Tennessee is a bit more of a crossroads state than Kentucky is. Kentucky and Tennessee may both share major N-S interstates 65 and 75, but Tennessee also has a little bit of I-55, a bit of mid-major interstate 81, and a monster of an E-W interstate in 40 that links them all together. I-64 isn't quite as strong of an E-W interstate.
Oh yeah, the BBQ is better in TN, and the winters are slightly more bearable.
-Billy Riddle (born in TN to a KY-native mother and TN-native father, lived most of his life in both states, and desperately wishes he was back in either one)
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 19, 2019, 08:28:21 PM
Tennessee is a bit more of a crossroads state than Kentucky is. Kentucky and Tennessee may both share major N-S interstates 65 and 75, but Tennessee also has a little bit of I-55, a bit of mid-major interstate 81, and a monster of an E-W interstate in 40 that links them all together. I-64 isn't quite as strong of an E-W interstate.
From the perspective of an East Coaster who often drives west, Kentucky is usually out of my way (though I did pass through there on my way to last weekend's Memphis meet). I more often pass through Tennessee on I-40/I-81 if I'm driving to the southwestern states, or Indiana via I-70 or the turnpikes if I'm heading toward the Pacific Northwest or western Canada. I-64 requires me to jog south through Beckley WV, or north through Morgantown WV, or the incomplete US 48/Corridor H. That makes it a less convenient west-east route, which often tips the scale toward my bypassing Kentucky.
West Virginia's mountainous terrain probably also deters truckers from using I-64 through Kentucky.
Quote from: oscar on April 19, 2019, 08:58:56 PM
West Virginia's mountainous terrain probably also deters truckers from using I-64 through Kentucky.
I-40 isn't flat in Tennessee.
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 19, 2019, 10:37:34 PM
Quote from: oscar on April 19, 2019, 08:58:56 PM
West Virginia's mountainous terrain probably also deters truckers from using I-64 through Kentucky.
I-40 isn't flat in Tennessee.
On average, it's flatter than West Virginia's Interstates.
Quote from: wriddle082 on April 19, 2019, 08:28:21 PM
Tennessee is also a right-to-work state, something I believe Kentucky is not.
Kentucky passed RTW two years ago.
I always coin right-to-work as right-to-fire.
Quote from: froggie^ Best way to address the "gentrification" and "working homeless" issues is to build more housing in the city. Also, ironically, the best way to preserve historic neighborhoods in those cities, but those residents would rather be NIMBYs citing traffic and population and crowded schools and whatnot.
Unfortunately there's not enough money to be made in building housing that is affordable to people in lower income classes, whether they're in that income bracket long term or they're young adults just trying to get a foothold to escape Mommy and Daddy's house to get on with their lives, start families and
help sustain "the American Way."The residential housing industry is stuck in the mindset of building McMansions or building nothing at all. It's literally an all or nothing ideal in most markets. There is a big shortage of lower priced single family homes. And there is hardly any activity at all with multi-unit/apartment complex developments. Well, not unless you count luxury high rise towers being built in places like Manhattan. The prices of home building materials has escalated to match the absurdity of the market. Making matters worse, there is a shortage of home construction workers. The shortage is being exacerbated by all the anti-immigrant fury stoked by certain political zealots, anger-porn cable "news" channels and hyper partisan anger-porn outlets on the Internet. Basically America's housing industry is getting right back in the same absurdly
unsustainable spot it was back in the mid 2000's when everything in most housing markets went to all freaking hell.
I'm fairly worried long term for what these absurdities in overpriced housing will mean to the nation over the next 20 years. The extreme prices of housing, health care and education/college in the United States are really setting the stage for one hell of a Japan style baby bust and massive demographic imbalance in age groups. We're turning Parenthood into an extremely expensive lifestyle choice. But our nation (and tax base) can't survive without a steady, healthy supply of
New Americans. If we make it impossible for all but the richest few young adults to breed we as a nation are going to be screwed. This nation's Total Fertility Rate is already plummeting to new lows never seen before in the history of this country. All of our net population gains for the past 40+ years have come via immigration. Now we hate immigrants of all types, legal or illegal. Doesn't matter. Even if we were letting in everyone, the immigrants are not having children anywhere near the high rates they were in the past.
Quote from: Revive 755I-40 isn't flat in Tennessee.
I'll second that, having driven I-40 across Tennessee a few times. There's this stretch between Memphis and Nashville where the road appears straight on the map. But when you drive it the road is like going up and down one big hill after another and another and another and on and on and on! Yeesh! It's not quite so monotonous between Nashville and Knoxville. There is still a lot of up and down action but there is more twists and turns too.
Quote from: oscarOn average, it's flatter than West Virginia's Interstates.
I don't know. I-40 in Eastern Tennessee transitions into I-81 going toward Virginia. I-81 through Western Virginia is pretty hilly. It's a little difficult to really tell the difference when you're driving all the way across Tennessee and up thru Western Virginia in the same road trip. That woodsy, hilly territory all seems to blend together. But the I-40 split into the Smoky Mountains going to Asheville is about as tight a drive as any through mountains in the Interstate system.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 20, 2019, 12:17:24 AM
I always coin right-to-work as right-to-fire.
Welcome to the world of professional work, even in a non-RTW state like Illinois. For us, it's always been "at-will" employment.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 20, 2019, 12:17:24 AM
I always coin right-to-work as right-to-fire.
Right-to-work means that you are not required to join a union as a condition of employment. You're confusing it with "at-will."
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 20, 2019, 12:33:44 AMThere's this stretch between Memphis and Nashville where the road appears straight on the map. But when you drive it the road is like going up and down one big hill after another and another and another and on and on and on! Yeesh! It's not quite so monotonous between Nashville and Knoxville.
You have them backwards. Nashville to Knoxville is a fun drive. Nothing monotonous about it at all. Nashville to Memphis, though, is a snoozefest. I drove it once and have vowed never to again. I'll use the Kentucky parkways and US 51 if I'm going to head to Memphis or points south or west.
Right-to-work is just a union-busting measure and it is sad that employees have so little understanding of a unionized workplace that they would support such and shoot themselves in the foot.
A union is the laborers' method of entering into a contract with the employer to get better terms than they would on their own. Because the contract covers the employees of the workplace, the union has to represent every employee in contract disputes and other incidents.
So, in regards to being "forced" to join a union at a workplace, you are simply paying dues to support the union's fulfillment of the contract which ensures the benefits that you are receiving.
Therefore, this right-to-work nonsense undercuts employees, kills the needed resources to negotiate with management and causes the race to the bottom with lower benefits. Yeah, you don't pay union dues, but your health insurance is ridiculously expensive as your workplace sticks it to you (one example).
Employees that think they can prove themselves on their own at large workplaces are kidding themselves amd are totally at the mercy of the employer. Unions ensure a true negotiation takes place and provides the real leverage.
All I know is I have worked with and without a union and those that think they're better off without are blind to what benefits they could actually have if they banded together in a union.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 20, 2019, 09:52:44 PM
Nashville to Knoxville is a fun drive. Nothing monotonous about it at all. Nashville to Memphis, though, is a snoozefest. I drove it once and have vowed never to again. I'll use the Kentucky parkways and US 51 if I'm going to head to Memphis or points south or west.
While I would agree that Memphis to the Tennessee River is boring, the stretch from there to Nashville is quite scenic.
Quote from: rte66man on April 21, 2019, 08:53:52 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 20, 2019, 09:52:44 PM
Nashville to Knoxville is a fun drive. Nothing monotonous about it at all. Nashville to Memphis, though, is a snoozefest. I drove it once and have vowed never to again. I'll use the Kentucky parkways and US 51 if I'm going to head to Memphis or points south or west.
Depends which way you go ;)
I two-laned it to Dandridge a couple years ago :)
While I would agree that Memphis to the Tennessee River is boring, the stretch from there to Nashville is quite scenic.
The split of southbound I-55/69 and eastbound I-240 hasn't been signed since at least 2007 (https://goo.gl/maps/guMJqwyRLUwEmkbv9).
Quote from: Tom958 on May 18, 2021, 08:31:49 PM
The split of southbound I-55/69 and eastbound I-240 hasn't been signed since at least 2007 (https://goo.gl/maps/guMJqwyRLUwEmkbv9).
What signage are you talking about?
Quote from: Tom958 on May 18, 2021, 08:31:49 PM
The split of southbound I-55/69 and eastbound I-240 hasn't been signed since at least 2007 (https://goo.gl/maps/guMJqwyRLUwEmkbv9).
Does this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0715757,-90.0281153,3a,37.4y,138.31h,88.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shndvY9BDT3bhhu71jUfrzA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) not count?
Quote from: debragga on May 19, 2021, 08:54:36 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 18, 2021, 08:31:49 PM
The split of southbound I-55/69 and eastbound I-240 hasn't been signed since at least 2007 (https://goo.gl/maps/guMJqwyRLUwEmkbv9).
Does this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0715757,-90.0281153,3a,37.4y,138.31h,88.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shndvY9BDT3bhhu71jUfrzA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) not count?
I would say that would count.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 19, 2021, 09:02:32 AM
Quote from: debragga on May 19, 2021, 08:54:36 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on May 18, 2021, 08:31:49 PM
The split of southbound I-55/69 and eastbound I-240 hasn't been signed since at least 2007 (https://goo.gl/maps/guMJqwyRLUwEmkbv9).
Does this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0715757,-90.0281153,3a,37.4y,138.31h,88.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shndvY9BDT3bhhu71jUfrzA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) not count?
I would say that would count.
Ha, no. That's just a gore sign, with a shield because a normal exit number sign would be weird without... an overhead, as numerous sites in Tennessee and elsewhere have. :rolleyes: One (less-than-stellar) example is only 1200 feet away (https://goo.gl/maps/QbZSDLvBXLhgnVPy6).
If anyone ever moves to Memphis, they should really listen to this 1993 aha song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbF2swavgSA.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on April 18, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 18, 2019, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain.
:-D :-D :-D :-D
That's funny.
Every state has places that whine and cry over a perceived "neglect." In North Carolina, Charlotte cries that the Triangle and Triad get all the attention. Here in Kentucky, Louisville has an inferiority complex, saying that Lexington, northern Kentucky, and the rural areas of the state are held in higher regard.
In Wisconsin that's nearly every place besides Milwaukee and Madison. Lots of politicians seem to have a vendetta against those two cities.
in indiana basically everywhere outside the indy metro area say they get the shaft.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain. Never mind the positive history Memphis gives to the rest of Tennessee regarding its influence upon popular American culture. The folks in Nashville and even the folks in Knoxville look down their noses at Memphis as if it is the anus of the state. Of course, there is no shortage of criminals within Memphis trying to make the city live down to that reputation. But the whole thing is kind of a self perpetuating circle. If you have a major American city struggling from neglect you can't really expect the city to improve by doubling down on that whole "let's neglect the living hell out of the place" angle.
I wouldn't say you are wrong as I'm sure at some level that is part of the reasoning but more likely to do with wealth. Less wealth equals less representation. I am appalled at how horrible the freeways around Memphis are for being located in a state that is experiencing such high growth. Tennessee has ways to get the money they just won't do it.
I will say, most states do seem to have their "pet" cities or areas they focus on for better or worse.
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
^ That's not how I read that study. If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment. Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 20, 2019, 09:52:44 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 20, 2019, 12:17:24 AM
I always coin right-to-work as right-to-fire.
Right-to-work means that you are not required to join a union as a condition of employment. You're confusing it with "at-will."
Same difference from my perspective. It's either "find a reason (aka lame excuse) to fire him" or "make him so uncomfortable, he'll quit"
Maybe it's different in your part of the world, but this is what I see here.
Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
^ That's not how I read that study. If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment. Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.
Although somewhat counterintuitive as far as an urban bypass is concerned, the chances for a new northern bridge would seem to be intrinsically better due to the simple fact that functionally penniless MS wouldn't be a part of the process. And while TDOT's track record regarding Memphis metro is hardly exemplary, they
did display the wherewithal to build out the TN 385 loop and subsequently sign part of it as I-269, so extending that trajectory west across the river into another state that actually seems to follow through on multi-state projects bodes better than anything located thirty miles to the south.
Quote from: sparker on May 22, 2021, 05:41:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
^ That's not how I read that study. If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment. Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.
Although somewhat counterintuitive as far as an urban bypass is concerned, the chances for a new northern bridge would seem to be intrinsically better due to the simple fact that functionally penniless MS wouldn't be a part of the process. And while TDOT's track record regarding Memphis metro is hardly exemplary, they did display the wherewithal to build out the TN 385 loop and subsequently sign part of it as I-269, so extending that trajectory west across the river into another state that actually seems to follow through on multi-state projects bodes better than anything located thirty miles to the south.
The bridges at the functional end of I-269 (MS-304) at US-61 in Tunica shows that the road was designed to be extended at some future time. If they never expected a south Memphis bypass, they would have made these bridges much different, probably 1 lane dedicated bridge ramps.
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
A north crossing already exists, I-155. A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
A north crossing already exists, I-155. A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Sorry, too far away.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
A north crossing already exists, I-155. A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Neither of which does anything to relieve either the issue of localized Memphis metro traffic
nor the issues encountered by the huge level of commercial traffic funneling through the two existing bridges -- not to mention the conflict between those traffic patterns. The I-40 bridge shutdown is a critical demonstration of the problems endemic to chokepoints such as this; a bit of redundancy would be welcome here by just about all parties who need to traverse those chokepoints, particularly on a regular basis like commercial truckers. Sometimes a
laissez-faire approach, as favored by some posters (cough, cough!) just doesn't work well in the bigger picture.
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes. That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269. Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN). I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.
How does this help Little Rock or NWA? The effects for those two are negligible. On the other hand, a new freeway to NWA, is going to happen, even if both Memphis bridges fall into the river.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.0
Quote from: bwana39 on May 23, 2021, 11:57:12 PM
Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes. That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269. Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN). I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.
The passage of time is a good thing to keep in mind, but it's worth also keeping in mind that the primary consideration in the study seemed to be cost. A bridge tying into TN300 is still presumably the least-expensive to build.
I suspect that given the pattern of development, a bridge crossing President's Island and tying into existing I-55, perhaps at the "elbow" in south Memphis, would make more sense given traffic flows, but resistance due to industrial development on President's Island and neighborhood pressures (folks in that part of the city are particularly riled up currently due to the Byhalia Pipeline proposal) probably makes that a no-go.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A north crossing already exists, I-155.
71 miles away, as the crow flies.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A south crossing already exists, US 49.
52 miles away, as the crow flies.
Quote from: bwana39 on May 23, 2021, 11:57:12 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes. That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269. Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN). I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.
How does this help Little Rock or NWA? The effects for those two are negligible. On the other hand, a new freeway to NWA, is going to happen, even if both Memphis bridges fall into the river.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.0
While MS' DeSoto County
has seen outsize population growth in recent decades -- probably due to easier developmental costs (including permitting, utilities, etc.) than over the state line in Shelby County, it's still in Mississippi, which for all intents and purposes "blew its wad", expenditure-wise, with I-269 and the I-22 upgrades. It has, proverbially, turned empty pockets out when queried about the I-69/Dean bridge or any mention of further work on I-69 south of its present terminus along MS 713. Dropping the idea of a 3rd bridge which would involve any money or even planning costs within the state is likely a non-starter, particularly after COVID effectively interrupted any revenues from tourism and/or gaming from Tunica or down on the Gulf Shore. The old adage about getting blood from a turnip certainly applies here; barring a whopping level of Fed investment (which MS' own congressional delegation by & large seems to oppose), any new or even "temporarily" shelved MS-based projects are either dormant or even DOA.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A north crossing already exists, I-155.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
71 miles away, as the crow flies.
And works decently well for a cross-country I-40 bypass.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
52 miles away, as the crow flies.
Just a 2 lane, and may God help you if you break down or need cell coverage!
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general. This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue. I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around. By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.
2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing (https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/MRCexecsum.pdf)
A north crossing already exists, I-155. A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Oh, good lord :rolleyes:
Maybe it should reroute to I-20... LOL... Or US-90....
Crittenden County (across the river from Memphis) is woefully underdeveloped and has a ton of potential for suburban growth. The town of Marion has gotten a little bit of that growth, but not so much West Memphis. One big reason is Arkansas' state income tax. The state at one point forgave state income tax for Texarkana, which borders Texas, which of course has no state income tax. But Arkansas never provided that benefit for West Memphis. Plus, the presence of the river and 2 substandard bridges don't help either.
One of these days, the discovery will be made that you can buy a lot more house and yard on the west side of the river.
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River. They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River. They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....
Quote from: bwana39 on June 08, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River. They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....
A band of savvy persons could get elected as constables in Tipton County and then offer to police the oxbows.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 02:03:05 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 08, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River. They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....
A band of savvy persons could get elected as constables in Tipton County and then offer to police the oxbows.
Since the nearby Tunica casinos haven't so far demonstrated that they're the flock of "golden geese" that would have economically elevated the local area on the east side of the river, a decade-old plan to place one more on an oxbow only accessible from AR, regardless of technical and political feasibility, is unlikely to be revisited at this time -- particularly since the I-40 bridge shutdown has also demonstrated the fragility of cross-river access. Unless an additional outer crossing is itself revisited, it's highly improbable that any casino developer would sink capital into such a venture.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River. They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
the vast majority of those parcels at within the levee.
There are some that feel Arkansas should encourage "building up" Arkansas's side of the immediate bank of the Mississippi and other "islands" across from Memphis for residential and low rise office using the same methods we use for things like the new weight stations and road beds and overpasses. Very much like the north end of Mud Island but with potential 3 to 5 story offices mixed in. I figure the displacement in flood waters make it unfeasible
I wonder whats to become of the BASF plant once it closes. It is on built up land as proposed above. I figure it is a super fund site in the end and across from industrial Presidents Island.
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
Crittenden County (across the river from Memphis) is woefully underdeveloped and has a ton of potential for suburban growth. The town of Marion has gotten a little bit of that growth, but not so much West Memphis. One big reason is Arkansas' state income tax. The state at one point forgave state income tax for Texarkana, which borders Texas, which of course has no state income tax. But Arkansas never provided that benefit for West Memphis.
The border city exemption benefits Texarkana Arkansas residents more than Texarkana Texas residents. TA residents can work
anywhere and not pay State of Arkansas income taxes.
For Texarkana, Texas, you must live in the CITY LIMITS of Texarkana Texas that doesn't mean Nash. It doesn't mean Wake Village. It doesn't mean Red Lick. (All of which are contiguous with Texarkana.) It certainly doesn't mean rural Bowie County. Simply having a Texarkana Address does not do it.
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
One of these days, the discovery will be made that you can buy a lot more house and yard on the west side of the river.
In spite of the generally higher taxes in Mississippi, people have flocked to Desoto County. It is kind of like in DFW where the primary expansion has been north. From Memphis it is south.
As an aside, schools in Crittenden County Arkansas are regarded as particularly bad.
Quote from: bwana39 on June 09, 2021, 11:55:46 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
Crittenden County (across the river from Memphis) is woefully underdeveloped and has a ton of potential for suburban growth. The town of Marion has gotten a little bit of that growth, but not so much West Memphis. One big reason is Arkansas' state income tax. The state at one point forgave state income tax for Texarkana, which borders Texas, which of course has no state income tax. But Arkansas never provided that benefit for West Memphis.
The border city exemption benefits Texarkana Arkansas residents more than Texarkana Texas residents. TA residents can work anywhere and not pay State of Arkansas income taxes.
For Texarkana, Texas, you must live in the CITY LIMITS of Texarkana Texas that doesn't mean Nash. It doesn't mean Wake Village. It doesn't mean Red Lick. (All of which are contiguous with Texarkana.) It certainly doesn't mean rural Bowie County. Simply having a Texarkana Address does not do it.
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
One of these days, the discovery will be made that you can buy a lot more house and yard on the west side of the river.
In spite of the generally higher taxes in Mississippi, people have flocked to Desoto County. It is kind of like in DFW where the primary expansion has been north. From Memphis it is south.
As an aside, schools in Crittenden County Arkansas are regarded as particularly bad.
Marion is not considered a bad district.
It's come to my attention that I-40 eastbound narrows to a single lane just before it merges with northbound I-240 (https://goo.gl/maps/fvpZNXf9eT6S69Ji9). I know from discussions elsewhere that the I-240 leg carries more traffic, but still. That chokedown probably is a daily bottleneck, Interstate mainlines should always have at least two lanes, and the situation wouldn't have been expensive to eliminate when the I-40-240 interchange was rebuilt in 2006.
I think the situation could be addressed by:
- Removing the Jersey barrier between 40 and 240 a foot and a half past the back of the impact attenuator at the Jackson Avenue offramp
- Moving the 40 and 240 roadways together expeditiously
- Maintaining four lanes at least as far as the Chelsea Avenue offramp. Doing this would require adding 0.4 miles of a new right lane including widening to bridges carrying the freeway. If you want the fourth lane to go further, I won't disagree.
So, does anyone ever talk about this, or is it a nonproblem?
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2021, 09:27:37 PM
It's come to my attention that I-40 eastbound narrows to a single lane just before it merges with northbound I-240 (https://goo.gl/maps/fvpZNXf9eT6S69Ji9). I know from discussions elsewhere that the I-240 leg carries more traffic, but still. That chokedown probably is a daily bottleneck, Interstate mainlines should always have at least two lanes, and the situation wouldn't have been expensive to eliminate when the I-40-240 interchange was rebuilt in 2006.
I think the situation could be addressed by:
- Removing the Jersey barrier between 40 and 240 a foot and a half past the back of the impact attenuator at the Jackson Avenue offramp
- Moving the 40 and 240 roadways together expeditiously
- Maintaining four lanes at least as far as the Chelsea Avenue offramp. Doing this would require adding 0.4 miles of a new right lane including widening to bridges carrying the freeway. If you want the fourth lane to go further, I won't disagree.
So, does anyone ever talk about this, or is it a nonproblem?
Wow, I thought this was taken care of during the rebuild. Memphis does not seem set up for being the cross-country traffic hub it has become.
Quote from: Tom958 on June 16, 2021, 09:27:37 PM
It's come to my attention that I-40 eastbound narrows to a single lane just before it merges with northbound I-240 (https://goo.gl/maps/fvpZNXf9eT6S69Ji9). I know from discussions elsewhere that the I-240 leg carries more traffic, but still. That chokedown probably is a daily bottleneck, Interstate mainlines should always have at least two lanes, and the situation wouldn't have been expensive to eliminate when the I-40-240 interchange was rebuilt in 2006.
I think the situation could be addressed by:
- Removing the Jersey barrier between 40 and 240 a foot and a half past the back of the impact attenuator at the Jackson Avenue offramp
- Moving the 40 and 240 roadways together expeditiously
- Maintaining four lanes at least as far as the Chelsea Avenue offramp. Doing this would require adding 0.4 miles of a new right lane including widening to bridges carrying the freeway. If you want the fourth lane to go further, I won't disagree.
So, does anyone ever talk about this, or is it a nonproblem?
It has 2 NB lanes until well past Jackson Ave. I suspect this was a temporary arrangement until the I40/I69 interchange at the Wolf River was rebuilt. However, given TDOT's foot dragging, that could be another 10-20 years.