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Memphis Highways

Started by US71, April 15, 2019, 01:56:28 PM

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The Ghostbuster

If anyone ever moves to Memphis, they should really listen to this 1993 aha song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbF2swavgSA.


silverback1065

Quote from: MantyMadTown on April 18, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 18, 2019, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain.

:-D :-D :-D :-D

That's funny.

Every state has places that whine and cry over a perceived "neglect." In North Carolina, Charlotte cries that the Triangle and Triad get all the attention. Here in Kentucky, Louisville has an inferiority complex, saying that Lexington, northern Kentucky, and the rural areas of the state are held in higher regard.

In Wisconsin that's nearly every place besides Milwaukee and Madison. Lots of politicians seem to have a vendetta against those two cities.

in indiana basically everywhere outside the indy metro area say they get the shaft.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 18, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Putting it bluntly: Memphis has too many black people. That's the reason for the disdain. Never mind the positive history Memphis gives to the rest of Tennessee regarding its influence upon popular American culture. The folks in Nashville and even the folks in Knoxville look down their noses at Memphis as if it is the anus of the state. Of course, there is no shortage of criminals within Memphis trying to make the city live down to that reputation. But the whole thing is kind of a self perpetuating circle. If you have a major American city struggling from neglect you can't really expect the city to improve by doubling down on that whole "let's neglect the living hell out of the place" angle.
I wouldn't say you are wrong as I'm sure at some level that is part of the reasoning but more likely to do with wealth. Less wealth equals less representation. I am appalled at how horrible the freeways around Memphis are for being located in a state that is experiencing such high growth. Tennessee has ways to get the money they just won't do it.

I will say, most states do seem to have their "pet"  cities or areas they focus on for better or worse.

MikieTimT

They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing

froggie

^ That's not how I read that study.  If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment.  Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.

US71

Quote from: hbelkins on April 20, 2019, 09:52:44 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 20, 2019, 12:17:24 AM
I always coin right-to-work as right-to-fire.

Right-to-work means that you are not required to join a union as a condition of employment. You're confusing it with "at-will."


Same difference from my perspective. It's either "find a reason (aka lame excuse) to fire him" or "make him so uncomfortable, he'll quit"

Maybe it's different in your part of the world, but this is what I see here.

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

sparker

Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
^ That's not how I read that study.  If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment.  Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.

Although somewhat counterintuitive as far as an urban bypass is concerned, the chances for a new northern bridge would seem to be intrinsically better due to the simple fact that functionally penniless MS wouldn't be a part of the process.  And while TDOT's track record regarding Memphis metro is hardly exemplary, they did display the wherewithal to build out the TN 385 loop and subsequently sign part of it as I-269, so extending that trajectory west across the river into another state that actually seems to follow through on multi-state projects bodes better than anything located thirty miles to the south.   

edwaleni

Quote from: sparker on May 22, 2021, 05:41:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 22, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
^ That's not how I read that study.  If you actually read into the study, the recommendations were indicating that a site NORTH of I-40 would be more likely to be built for reasons of traffic, cost, and the environment.  Also, one of those two alternatives south of I-55 that you mentioned is specifically listed as "future project", which means it would not be built first.

Although somewhat counterintuitive as far as an urban bypass is concerned, the chances for a new northern bridge would seem to be intrinsically better due to the simple fact that functionally penniless MS wouldn't be a part of the process.  And while TDOT's track record regarding Memphis metro is hardly exemplary, they did display the wherewithal to build out the TN 385 loop and subsequently sign part of it as I-269, so extending that trajectory west across the river into another state that actually seems to follow through on multi-state projects bodes better than anything located thirty miles to the south.   

The bridges at the functional end of I-269 (MS-304) at US-61 in Tunica shows that the road was designed to be extended at some future time. If they never expected a south Memphis bypass, they would have made these bridges much different, probably 1 lane dedicated bridge ramps.

Avalanchez71

Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing

A north crossing already exists, I-155.  A south crossing already exists, US 49.

Wayward Memphian

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing

A north crossing already exists, I-155.  A south crossing already exists, US 49.

Sorry, too far away.

sparker

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing

A north crossing already exists, I-155.  A south crossing already exists, US 49.

Neither of which does anything to relieve either the issue of localized Memphis metro traffic nor the issues encountered by the huge level of commercial traffic funneling through the two existing bridges -- not to mention the conflict between those traffic patterns.  The I-40 bridge shutdown is a critical demonstration of the problems endemic to chokepoints such as this; a bit of redundancy would be welcome here by just about all parties who need to traverse those chokepoints, particularly on a regular basis like commercial truckers.  Sometimes a laissez-faire approach, as favored by some posters (cough, cough!) just doesn't work well in the bigger picture.

bwana39

#61
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing


Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes.     That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269.  Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN).  I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.

How does this help Little Rock or NWA?  The effects for those two are negligible. On the other hand, a new freeway to NWA, is going to happen, even if both Memphis bridges fall into the river.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.0
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: bwana39 on May 23, 2021, 11:57:12 PM
Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes.     That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269.  Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN).  I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.

The passage of time is a good thing to keep in mind, but it's worth also keeping in mind that the primary consideration in the study seemed to be cost.   A bridge tying into TN300 is still presumably the least-expensive to build.

I suspect that given the pattern of development, a bridge crossing President's Island and tying into existing I-55, perhaps at the "elbow" in south Memphis, would make more sense given traffic flows, but resistance due to industrial development on President's Island and neighborhood pressures (folks in that part of the city are particularly riled up currently due to the Byhalia Pipeline proposal) probably makes that a no-go.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A north crossing already exists, I-155.

71 miles away, as the crow flies.

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A south crossing already exists, US 49.

52 miles away, as the crow flies.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

sparker

Quote from: bwana39 on May 23, 2021, 11:57:12 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing


Yes more of the alternatives were south of I-55. The study seems to favor the northern routes.     That said, the study was 15 years ago. The population in Memphis proper is pretty static. The population in Desoto County Mississippi has increased by around 70% since the study, I-22 has been completed to I-269.  Most of the new industry is in Desoto county or far south Shelby county (TN).  I think this study is pretty dated. Regardless of where this bridge is built, Arkansas could care less. MEANING they won't put their money into it PERIOD unless it costs them nothing or nothing of real value.

How does this help Little Rock or NWA?  The effects for those two are negligible. On the other hand, a new freeway to NWA, is going to happen, even if both Memphis bridges fall into the river.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29375.0

While MS' DeSoto County has seen outsize population growth in recent decades -- probably due to easier developmental costs (including permitting, utilities, etc.) than over the state line in Shelby County, it's still in Mississippi, which for all intents and purposes "blew its wad", expenditure-wise, with I-269 and the I-22 upgrades.  It has, proverbially, turned empty pockets out when queried about the I-69/Dean bridge or any mention of further work on I-69 south of its present terminus along MS 713.  Dropping the idea of a 3rd bridge which would involve any money or even planning costs within the state is likely a non-starter, particularly after COVID effectively interrupted any revenues from tourism and/or gaming from Tunica or down on the Gulf Shore.  The old adage about getting blood from a turnip certainly applies here; barring a whopping level of Fed investment (which MS' own congressional delegation by & large seems to oppose), any new or even "temporarily" shelved MS-based projects are either dormant or even DOA. 

MikieTimT

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A north crossing already exists, I-155.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
71 miles away, as the crow flies.
And works decently well for a cross-country I-40 bypass.

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
A south crossing already exists, US 49.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
52 miles away, as the crow flies.
Just a 2 lane, and may God help you if you break down or need cell coverage!

sprjus4

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 23, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on May 22, 2021, 11:29:10 AM
They have been working toward adding a 3rd river crossing for a couple of decades now, but just can't seem to get enough of the federal attention that would be required for such a project as it requires coordinating 3 different DOTs in some of the alignment alternatives that were looked into, not to mention the funding issues prevalent with the 3 states involved in general.  This bridge issue occurring will hopefully give some national focus on what is actually a national problem, despite some wanting to portray issues like the I-40 bridge closing as only a regional issue.  I ran across a PDF of the plans they were working on back a decade ago, so here's hoping that there is a real push this time around.  By the way, all but 2 of the alternatives were south of I-55, so a southern loop is far more likely to happen before any northern loop into Arkansas is ever really considered.

2006 Study for 3rd Memphis Area River Crossing

A north crossing already exists, I-155.  A south crossing already exists, US 49.
Oh, good lord  :rolleyes:

bwana39

Maybe it should reroute to I-20... LOL...  Or US-90....
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Road Hog

Crittenden County (across the river from Memphis) is woefully underdeveloped and has a ton of potential for suburban growth. The town of Marion has gotten a little bit of that growth, but not so much West Memphis. One big reason is Arkansas' state income tax. The state at one point forgave state income tax for Texarkana, which borders Texas, which of course has no state income tax. But Arkansas never provided that benefit for West Memphis. Plus, the presence of the river and 2 substandard bridges don't help either.

One of these days, the discovery will be made that you can buy a lot more house and yard on the west side of the river.

Avalanchez71

It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River.  They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.

bwana39

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River.  They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.

You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Avalanchez71

Quote from: bwana39 on June 08, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River.  They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.

You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....

A band of savvy persons could get elected as constables in Tipton County and then offer to police the oxbows.

sparker

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 02:03:05 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 08, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River.  They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.

You know, there was a proposal to build a casino on one of those oxbows a decade or so ago. The Arkansas county that would have to policed the access could not get worked out.....

A band of savvy persons could get elected as constables in Tipton County and then offer to police the oxbows.

Since the nearby Tunica casinos haven't so far demonstrated that they're the flock of "golden geese" that would have economically elevated the local area on the east side of the river,  a decade-old plan to place one more on an oxbow only accessible from AR, regardless of technical and political feasibility, is unlikely to be revisited at this time -- particularly since the I-40 bridge shutdown has also demonstrated the fragility of cross-river access.  Unless an additional outer crossing is itself revisited, it's highly improbable that any casino developer would sink capital into such a venture.

Wayward Memphian

#73
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:55:30 AM
It would be interesting if a developer was to develop some land that is actually in Tennessee on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi River.  They could tout low land costs and freedom from Arkansas taxes.
the vast majority of those parcels at within the levee.

There are some that feel Arkansas should encourage "building up" Arkansas's side of the immediate bank of the Mississippi and other "islands" across from Memphis for residential and low rise office using the same methods we use for things like the new weight stations and road beds and overpasses. Very much like the north end of Mud Island but with potential 3 to 5 story offices mixed in. I figure the displacement in flood waters make it unfeasible


I wonder whats to become of the BASF plant once it closes. It is on built up land as proposed above. I figure it is a super fund site in the end and across from industrial Presidents Island.


bwana39

#74
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
Crittenden County (across the river from Memphis) is woefully underdeveloped and has a ton of potential for suburban growth. The town of Marion has gotten a little bit of that growth, but not so much West Memphis. One big reason is Arkansas' state income tax. The state at one point forgave state income tax for Texarkana, which borders Texas, which of course has no state income tax. But Arkansas never provided that benefit for West Memphis.

The border city exemption benefits Texarkana Arkansas residents more than Texarkana Texas residents.  TA residents can work anywhere and not pay State of Arkansas income taxes.

For Texarkana, Texas,  you must live in the CITY LIMITS of Texarkana Texas  that doesn't mean Nash. It doesn't mean Wake Village. It doesn't mean Red Lick. (All of which are contiguous with Texarkana.) It certainly doesn't mean rural Bowie County.  Simply having a Texarkana Address does not do it.

Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2021, 11:20:18 PM
One of these days, the discovery will be made that you can buy a lot more house and yard on the west side of the river.

In spite of the generally higher taxes in Mississippi, people have flocked to Desoto County.  It is kind of like in DFW where the primary expansion has been north.  From Memphis it is south.

As an aside, schools in Crittenden County Arkansas are regarded as particularly bad.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.



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