Speed enforcement and tolerance

[kphoger]

... which is why, in my next post, I said...

Obviously, there are circumstances that interrupt this basic flow of traffic (heavy urban traffic, left-side exits, etc), ...

[jakeroot]

... which is why, in my next post, I said...

Obviously, there are circumstances that interrupt this basic flow of traffic (heavy urban traffic, left-side exits, etc), ...

But it would seem that there are people out there who, right or wrong, have it drilled into them to just avoid the right-most lane even in stretches without any merging. I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside. But there's still people out there who just don't care and, as a rule of thumb, avoid that right-most lane until they have to exit, even if there are no cars for half a mile on their right, and they could probably make better time by using it!

[webny99]

I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside.

I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).

With that said, I'm sure counter-examples exist... but unfortunately they're not going to come from this area. The only extended 6-lane freeways are I-87 north of Albany (54 miles) and I-81 north of Syracuse (17.5 miles), and both of those have significant suburban/rural segments.

[kphoger]

I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).

Oh, come on.  Drive that stretch at 12:30 AM, and then tell me you didn't see anyone driving in the middle or left lane for no reason.

[jakeroot]

I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside.

I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).

I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).

The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.

[webny99]

I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).

Oh, come on.  Drive that stretch at 12:30 AM, and then tell me you didn't see anyone driving in the middle or left lane for no reason.

You might, or you might not. But that's not really the point. Of course there are people that don't keep right like they should, but I was responding to the specific point that there are "vast stretches" where the right lane is "more than adequate".

I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).

The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.

Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.

Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.

[jakeroot]

I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).

The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.

Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.

Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.

So you're telling me that in that six-lane stretch, there's virtually zero chance that you could remain in the right lane without having to change out of it at every single on-ramp to allow traffic to merge in? That's very hard to believe. Even if you have to change lanes once, hell even twice(!), that' still only a couple lane changes over the course of three miles. Three miles is not an insignificant distance, and to think someone would specifically choose to not drive in the right lane, perhaps at all, because they might have to change lanes a couple of times over a few miles, is mind-boggling laziness. Not to mention extremely rude to the drivers behind you, who now have been narrowed to a one passing lane during general free-flow hours (clearly we are not talking about stop-and-go traffic).

When I say "vast stretches", I was referring to the cumulative mileage of outside lanes where merging traffic was more than manageable enough to remain in said lane with only occasional lane changing or perhaps braking to permit a safe merge. You do not need QEW-levels of exit spacing to justify the use of the outside lane.

[Scott5114]

The odd road signs thread spawns a discussion about speed enforcement, so I split it off to its own thread. Then the new thread starts talking about lane discipline. Welcome to the life of an AARoads admin.

[kphoger]

damn goats again

[jeffandnicole]

You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?

The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.

[jeffandnicole]

I have a friend who works in corrections. He told me different agencies set different standards, so the county sheriff might give 8 over but state patrol might only give 5 over in that same area.

Usually I've found state troopers to be more relaxed as opposed to local police who may be looking to make revenue.

Granted, the city police department here in Chesapeake have jurisdiction over the two underposted 55 mph freeways that pass through, and enforcement is non existent. Seeing police traveling 15-20 mph over is normal, if they're on the highway at all. I've only ever seen them once or twice actually posted up in my hundreds of times driving here, and people passed at 10-15 over without care.

An article came out when they opened the new, wide open US-17 relocation in the southern rural part of the city, they enforced it decently, but didn't even begin stops until over 70 mph in a posted 55 mph, and usually gave warnings. The highway easily invites high speeds like that, so it's reasonable. Should be 65 mph, but that's another story.

Now, city police is more frequently seen on local streets and roadways, where enforcement is more appropriate than on the underposted highway. But if they ever truly wanted money, it's an easy source.

Depends on the state. In NJ, nearly all money received from tickets go to the state, regardless of which department the officer works for.

Also, no matter who gives the traffic ticket, if there's a court case as a result of the ticket,  it is heard in the municipality where the offense took place. In many cases, the municipality may not even have an exit or access to the highway, yet the court hearing will be held there as it's wothin thr boundaries where the offender was caught.

And because of this, if you see a local cop running radar on a highway in NJ, they usually give the standard leeway a state trooper would give, which as best as I can tell is often 15 mph in a 65 zone; 20 mph in a 55 zone.

[KEK Inc.]

You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?

The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.

My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette.  We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally.  The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs.  I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn.  I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section. 

[Big John]

My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette.  We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally.  The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs.  I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn.  I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section. 

Did you mean "Keep right except to pass"?

[sprjus4]

My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette.  We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally.  The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs.  I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn.  I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section. 

Did you mean "Keep right except to pass"?

If you're in Virginia, then no, keep right to pass, keep left to cruise, according to most drivers.

[jeffandnicole]

You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?

The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.

My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette.  We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally.  The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs.  I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn.  I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section. 

I watched someone get pulled over recently, presumably for hogging the left lane. The driver was in the left lane, trooper pulled up being the car. Even with no one else nearby, (I was quite a distance behind this), the car remained in the left lane for 2-3 miles before the trooper turned on his lights. The car then pulled over pretty quickly. 

[webny99]

Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.

Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.

So you're telling me that in that six-lane stretch, there's virtually zero chance that you could remain in the right lane without having to change out of it at every single on-ramp to allow traffic to merge in? That's very hard to believe. Even if you have to change lanes once, hell even twice(!), that' still only a couple lane changes over the course of three miles. Three miles is not an insignificant distance ...

No, of course there's not zero chance. I said it's highly unlikely, but of course it could - and no doubt does - happen, especially among slower traffic. This is one of the most "urban" freeways in the area, both in terms of character and traffic volumes, so these are all busy interchanges. It would be very rare during normal daytime hours (say 8AM to 8PM) not to encounter at least some traffic at all of the entrances.

Looking at Exits 16-20 in particular, they're close enough that they've got auxiliary lanes between them (with the exception of eastbound between 19 and 20). There's enough traffic switching lanes that the right through lane and auxiliary lane often function independently of the left two lanes and more like a C/D road - so make of that what you will.

... to think someone would specifically choose to not drive in the right lane, perhaps at all, because they might have to change lanes a couple of times over a few miles, is mind-boggling laziness. Not to mention extremely rude to the drivers behind you, who now have been narrowed to a one passing lane during general free-flow hours (clearly we are not talking about stop-and-go traffic).

That's not my position at all. Everyone knows I'm one of the biggest advocates of KRETP out there. I just think it's important to distinguish between urban and rural freeways in this regard, and to keep an open mind when trying to apply KRETP to urban and otherwise exit-dense freeways. This is one of the inherent challenges that comes with building interstates in urban areas - many people have a mindset and approach to freeway driving (fast-left/slow-right) that can be very difficult to reconcile with the Autobahn approach (pass-left/drive-right).

When I say "vast stretches", I was referring to the cumulative mileage of outside lanes where merging traffic was more than manageable enough to remain in said lane with only occasional lane changing or perhaps braking to permit a safe merge. You do not need QEW-levels of exit spacing to justify the use of the outside lane.

Of course not, but I think that significantly understates the effect of high exit density and inconsistent lane configurations common in urban and suburban areas - my original comment that there are no 6-lane freeways longer than 7 miles in the Rochester area being a case-in-point here.

[interstatefan990]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

[sprjus4]

I usually find myself in the middle or left lanes of highways in general, but I do try to move over to the right when I'm not passing, and when I do use the left lanes, I try to adjust my speed to the prevailing speed of that lane, regardless of the speed limit. So on urban 55 mph highways, usually 65-75 mph, 80-85 mph on rural highways. The last thing I want to do is deliberately impede traffic.

[KEK Inc.]

My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette.  We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally.  The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs.  I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn.  I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section. 

Did you mean "Keep right except to pass"?

Yes. 

[ClassicHasClass]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic.

But it shouldn't be all on the right lane drivers' plate. In fact, given that they're already there, I don't think that should be even primarily their responsibility. Merging traffic needs to merge, yes, but not obstruct.

[1995hoo]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...

[sprjus4]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...

He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.

[interstatefan990]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...

He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.

Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.

[sprjus4]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...

He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.

Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.

^ This

[Brandon]

The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.

Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...

He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.

Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.

The term for that regionally is FIB.